Want to avoid bad habits

[Flying h4x0r]

Hey Everyone,

I'm a low time private pilot (75 hours) and just started working on my Instrument Rating. My instructor told me I need to build more cross country time/simulated instrument time before starting formal training.

I've read a lot about how it's easy to form bad habits which will actually lengthen your training since you will have to unlearn them, and was hoping some of you guys could tell me specifically what bad habits I should avoid.

Is it just maintaining a good instrument scan and not fixating on one instrument? Making tiny corrections when you get off your intended altitude/heading? Anything else?

Thanks in advance!

 

[COFlyBoy]

Don't try to teach yourself approaches.

Do try to pay more attention to holding your heading and altitude to tighter and tighter tolerances.

Are you flying under the hood with a safety pilot now? I don't think that that will be helpful until you've started formal training.

 

[bobmrg]

I would turn your proposition on its head and encourage the development of good habits. You're already on the right track with your emphasis on precision. You should start learning "the numbers" for the airplane in which you will take your training. Make a matrix with cruise, climb, cruise descent, approach, approach descent, and non-precision descent on the Y axis and manifold pressure/RPM, pitch attitude, airspeed, and vertical speed on the X axis (obviously, the power setting column heading will depend on what you are flying).

Take a buddy who can keep an eye out for traffic with you, because your head will be in the cockpit most of the time. There will be minuscule differences in "the numbers" based on weight and density altitude, but ya gotta start somewhere. Establish level flight at your normal cruise speed; note the speed, the power setting, and set the little airplane in the attitude indicator right on the horizon....that will be zero pitch. Without changing anything but the power setting, pull off 5 inches/500 rpm and let the airplane descend at cruise speed; note the power setting, the vertical speed (the airspeed shouldn't change) and where the little airplane is with relation to the horizon in terms of bar-widths. Those are the numbers for cruise descent. Remember what the power setting was for cruise? When you reach a cardinal altitude (actually, lead it by 50 feet or so), smoothly advance the power to the cruise setting. Now you know how to go from cruise to cruise descent to cruise without a lot of mental gymnastics. What speed will you use in the terminal area for an instrument approach? Not cruise, I hope. How about something like 90 knots? Establish level flight at 90 knots, note the power setting and pitch setting and write them into your matrix. Now practice going from cruise to approach without changing altitude or heading. Get the picture? Same exercise from cruise to climb and from climb to cruise level. Once you have "the numbers" in your head you won't be jockeying the throttle seeking the magic combination and can concentrate on navigation and that voice that keeps yammering in your ear.

All of this can be accomplished before you begin training in earnest, and it will serve you well.

Bob Gardner

 

[AggieMike88]

I would turn your proposition on its head and encourage the development of good habits. You're already on the right track with your emphasis on precision. You should start learning "the numbers" for the airplane in which you will take your training. Make a matrix with cruise, climb, cruise descent, approach, approach descent, and non-precision descent on the Y axis and manifold pressure/RPM, pitch attitude, airspeed, and vertical speed on the X axis (obviously, the power setting column heading will depend on what you are flying).

Searching Google found this image which illustrates that Bob suggests, but with the X/Y axes flipped. But do it the way Bob describes since it's easier to read.

And do consider getting Bob's book, The Complete Advanced Pilot. I'm in a similar position as you (85 hrs, also starting on the education for the instrument rating) and have found it one of the good choices for reference material.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm surprised your instructor suggested going out and trying instrument flying on your own before getting any instrument training with him/her. I'd think it a better idea to get a few hours of basic instrument training, then practice those basics on some flights including a landing 51nm from home (it's all XC time that way). Next, go back for some lessons on basic radio navigation, and then practice that. Keep doing that as you progress through the various stages of IR training, and before you know it, you'll be ready for the ride. You'll be taught all of it properly and then groove in those good procedures and techniques before the next step, and not have to worry about developing bad habits on your own.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'm surprised your instructor suggested going out and trying instrument flying on your own before getting any instrument training with him/her. I'd think it a better idea to get a few hours of basic instrument training, then practice those basics on some flights including a landing 51nm from home (it's all XC time that way). Next, go back for some lessons on basic radio navigation, and then practice that. Keep doing that as you progress through the various stages of IR training, and before you know it, you'll be ready for the ride. You'll be taught all of it properly and then groove in those good procedures and techniques before the next step, and not have to worry about developing bad habits on your own.

Agree completely and I'm just as surprised as you are. I like to think of flight with a safety pilot during instrument instruction and the functional equivalent of solo - best when practicing to re-enforce what you learned, and even better when part of the syllabus itself.

 

[EdFred]

I'm with Ron here. Yup, really. Don't do any instrument work with a safety pilot prior to at least 10 hours with the instructor. What you CAN do on your own for cross country, is really really work on holding heading, and altitude, and planning ahead.

 

[SkyHog]

Remember, he was given the basic knowledge he needed getting the PPL. I bet the issue is that the CFI doesn't want to have everything learned and still not have enough Instrument time for the ride.

That's kind of where I am. I've been through the entire IR syllabus at least 2 times with different instructors. I still don't have enough either actual or sim instrument to get the rating, so I need to find another instructor to take me through the syllabus again. This time, I'll probably have enough hours.

In other words: The instrument rating takes too many hours to get.

 

[pericynthion]

Try to use Flight Following as much as possible on your VFR flights, to get comfortable interacting with ATC. It's not the same as when you're IFR, but there's overlap. If there's a Class B or Class C within range you might also want to get some transitions.

Learn about weather. Paradoxically, you have to care *more* about weather as an IFR pilot.

 

[EdFred]

In other words: The instrument rating takes too many hours to get.

How much actual do you have in your training? I know you couldn't have gotten much/any in New Mexico. I think there should be a requirement that you have at least 10 actual before getting the rating.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Remember, he was given the basic knowledge he needed getting the PPL.

Not really. The 3 hours of KISS flight by reference to instruments for the PPL is nice (hopefully) for an unintended emergency but it is not generally taught with either the type of scan or number of maneuvers and configurations needed for sustained IFR flight while performing other necessary tasks.

That's kind of where I am. I've been through the entire IR syllabus at least 2 times with different instructors. I still don't have enough either actual or sim instrument to get the rating, so I need to find another instructor to take me through the syllabus again. This time, I'll probably have enough hours.

In other words: The instrument rating takes too many hours to get.

If you are indeed fully proficient to take the instrument checkride and don't yet have the 40 hours of instrument time, you are a huge exception to the more common experience.

But why do you need to go through the syllabus a third time? Or even a second? If you've completed all the requirements and are checkride-proficient in every instrument PTS task, heck, go find a safety pilot and practice and when you are three hours shy, do your 3-hours-before the ride piece.

 

[midlifeflyer]

How much actual do you have in your training? I know you couldn't have gotten much/any in New Mexico. I think there should be a requirement that you have at least 10 actual before getting the rating.

Thank you for your proposal to make instrument training more expensive for other people.

I won't disagree on the value of flight in actual instrument conditions but I'm willing to allow people to train where they live and not force them to take trips to meet my requirements. Most of the people I know who trained in areas with limited flyable IMC also understand that the real thing is different and aren't about to take off into low, solid conditions without additional training.

 

[EdFred]

Thank you for your proposal to make instrument training more expensive for other people.

I won't disagree on the value of flight in actual instrument conditions but I'm willing to allow people to train where they live and not force them to take trips to meet my requirements. Most of the people I know who trained in areas with limited flyable IMC also understand that the real thing is different and aren't about to take off into low, solid conditions without additional training.

Actually, I didn't have 10 actual before I got my ticket. But foggles just don't cut it. I had 10 hours on a ATC-610, and that was better for flying on the instruments than foggles. You can always cheat with foggles/hood, and that does no one any good.

 

[SkyHog]

For the record, I got about 1 total hour actual during the ppl process.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Actually, I didn't have 10 actual before I got my ticket. But foggles just don't cut it. I had 10 hours on a ATC-610, and that was better for flying on the instruments than foggles. You can always cheat with foggles/hood, and that does no one any good.

I had 6 including a a couple of approaches near minimums and one real missed off an ILS. And that was in New England where there is plenty of IFR to work with. Even there 25% of the total instrument hours and a much higher percentage of training hours is not all that realistic even in areas with good, widespread conditions.

There are obvious limitations to hoods and foggles but I think they are mostly fro the knowledge that clear weather is just a head-shake away the the "cheating" itself. Sometimes the peripheral view can enhance the experience - things moving out the side can induce some pretty decent vertigo in some folks.

 

[poadeleted20]

That's kind of where I am. I've been through the entire IR syllabus at least 2 times with different instructors. I still don't have enough either actual or sim instrument to get the rating, so I need to find another instructor to take me through the syllabus again. This time, I'll probably have enough hours.

Twice? And you're still under 40 hours total instrument time? I find it hard to believe that any effective IR syllabus can be accomplished without accruing 18.5 hours of actual/simulated instrument time (2*18.5 plus 3 from PP = 40). I think needed better organized instuctors.

In other words: The instrument rating takes too many hours to get.

If that's true, then you should be able to successfully perform a practice IR practical test with your less-than-40 hours of instrument time. Show up here with an airplane, and I'll give that to you free if you pass, along with enough instrument training to get to 40. Fail it, and you'll pay for my time at my standard rate.

 

[poadeleted20]

I think there should be a requirement that you have at least 10 actual before getting the rating.

I do too, but I agree with the FAA that it isn't a feasible requirement.

 

[SkyHog]

If that's true, then you should be able to successfully perform a practice IR practical test with your less-than-40 hours of instrument time. Show up here with an airplane, and I'll give that to you free if you pass, along with enough instrument training to get to 40. Fail it, and you'll pay for my time at my standard rate.

If you're serious, I'll take you up on it.

For clarity's sake: By going through the process twice, what I mean is I've been through 2 different instructor's run-through of what is expected for the IR checkride. Both times, I've done everything exactly as expected, and within tolerances.

I have ~20 hours simulated instrument and 1.6 hrs actual.

Just realize - you are offering ~20 hours of free instrument time if I'm right. I won't judge if that's too rich of an offer

 

[Jaybird180]

Makes sure to post up results of this "bet".

 

[jason]

If you're serious, I'll take you up on it.

For clarity's sake: By going through the process twice, what I mean is I've been through 2 different instructor's run-through of what is expected for the IR checkride. Both times, I've done everything exactly as expected, and within tolerances.

I have ~20 hours simulated instrument and 1.6 hrs actual.

Just realize - you are offering ~20 hours of free instrument time if I'm right. I won't judge if that's too rich of an offer

I think Ron read it like I read it...which was that you had flown through two CFIIs versions of their IR syllabus.

Having just gone through it, I think 40 hours is about right.

 

[bobmrg]

Twice? And you're still under 40 hours total instrument time? I find it hard to believe that any effective IR syllabus can be accomplished without accruing 18.5 hours of actual/simulated instrument time (2*18.5 plus 3 from PP = 40). I think needed better organized instuctors.

If that's true, then you should be able to successfully perform a practice IR practical test with your less-than-40 hours of instrument time. Show up here with an airplane, and I'll give that to you free if you pass, along with enough instrument training to get to 40. Fail it, and you'll pay for my time at my standard rate.

Slight diversion from the thread: According to 61.109, the three hours for the private are flight training; 61.65 requires instrument training. Ergo, the three private hours don't count toward the instrument requirements.

Bob Gardner

 

[SkyHog]

Slight diversion from the thread: According to 61.109, the three hours for the private are flight training; 61.65 requires instrument training. Ergo, the three private hours don't count toward the instrument requirements.

Bob Gardner

My understanding was always that if the instructor holds a CFII, then it is, in fact, instrument training, right?

 

[EdFred]

Slight diversion from the thread: According to 61.109, the three hours for the private are flight training; 61.65 requires instrument training. Ergo, the three private hours don't count toward the instrument requirements.

Bob Gardner

They don't count towards the instrument training time, but they count towards the 40 hours.

 

[EdFred]

My understanding was always that if the instructor holds a CFII, then it is, in fact, instrument training, right?

No, it's flight by reference to instruments. It is worded specifically different from IR.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you're serious, I'll take you up on it.

For clarity's sake: By going through the process twice, what I mean is I've been through 2 different instructor's run-through of what is expected for the IR checkride. Both times, I've done everything exactly as expected, and within tolerances.

I have ~20 hours simulated instrument and 1.6 hrs actual.

Just realize - you are offering ~20 hours of free instrument time if I'm right. I won't judge if that's too rich of an offer

I'm serious. You bring your plane here to SBY, and if you can pass a practice IR test with me (ground and flight), I'll fly that and the other 16 hours or so you'll need to reach 40, sign you off to go fly the test with my friendly DPE Frank Phillips, and skip getting paid. OTOH, if you fail, you pay for my time for the practice ride and whatever it takes to train to proficiency with me.

 

[poadeleted20]

They don't count towards the instrument training time, but they count towards the 40 hours.

61.65 requires 15 hours of instrument flight training, and 40 hour of instrument time. The "3 hours of flight training in a single-engine airplane on the control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments" for PP are "instrument time" per 61.51, but not "instrument flight training," and so count towards the 40, but not the 15. And yes, this was done specifically to allow non-IA CFI-A's to complete all the training for PP-A, but the payback was that it would not count as "instrument flight training" for the IR.

 

[SkyHog]

I'm serious. You bring your plane here to SBY, and if you can pass a practice IR test with me (ground and flight), I'll fly that and the other 16 hours or so you'll need to reach 40, sign you off to go fly the test with my friendly DPE Frank Phillips, and skip getting paid. OTOH, if you fail, you pay for my time for the practice ride and whatever it takes to train to proficiency with me.

You're on (this is a win/win for me, either way, because if I lose, then I have the impetus to finish my damn rating, and if I win, I get it for free, minus the cost of the airplane).

We have to wait for me to get some available time at work, will probably be sometime in Q4. Also - gotta make sure the wife is cool with it too!

 

[Jaybird180]

You're on (this is a win/win for me, either way, because if I lose, then I have the impetus to finish my damn rating, and if I win, I get it for free, minus the cost of the airplane).

We have to wait for me to get some available time at work, will probably be sometime in Q4. Also - gotta make sure the wife is cool with it too!

Let's see...Ron does training in 10 days. If you get it for free and yet you're waiting based on work....hmmm.....

I'm paid pretty well, but.....

 

[poadeleted20]

If he's really ready, it shouldn't take more than three days to bag the hours -- maybe two and an afternoon checkride.

 

[SkyHog]

Let's see...Ron does training in 10 days. If you get it for free and yet you're waiting based on work....hmmm.....

I'm paid pretty well, but.....

If he's really ready, it shouldn't take more than three days to bag the hours -- maybe two and an afternoon checkride.

Unfortunately, I travel on average one week for every 2 weeks at home. Work is crazy busy. Not about money, but time.

This will happen. I'm thinking, depending on Ron's availability, early November timeframe.

 

[Ted]

To the OP: Find a new instructor. You should get at least most of your 15 required instruction hours first before using a safety pilot. The IR does not require too many hours. Most people really do take 40 (or more).

You and your instructor can (and should) build up your XC hours during training. That way you learn how to practically use the instrument rating, as well as meet the requirements.