Waht is the wose thing I am looking at?

Ventucky Red

Ventucky Red

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What is the worse thing I am looking at?

Calling on the shared experience here to help me in my quest... towards ownership.

Looking at a PA28 that has been sitting for a few years. The owner is absentee and is now looking to sell the plane due to losing the hanger it was in.. The rent want way up and he doesn't want to take the time to get it across country, nor get it back to snuff... Sound like he has lost interest in it.

Tells me that engine has only been run a few times since 2010 which is a big concern to me regarding the engine.. So with this what are the major problems? I am thinking the jugs may be toast due to corrosion and pitting, what about the rest of the engine, the crank, seals, rods, bearing, etc.... The engine is currently mid-time with a Lycoming rebuild on it. I am sure the other items, lines, hoses, wires, etc... will come out in the pre-buy/annual, it is more the internal thing.

Anyone here been down this road and care to enlighten me on your experience.
 
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In this situation, figure the entire engine needs overhaul and set your offering price accordingly. You won't know for sure without at least pulling a jug and looking inside.
 
Ron Levy said:
In this situation, figure the entire engine needs overhaul and set your offering price accordingly. You won't know for sure without at least pulling a jug and looking inside.
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Exactly....and if he doesn't take that....walk away. He'll probably call you back in a few months hoping your offer is still good. IF he gets a better offer, it will be from a fool.

This goes along with Jaybird's thread about the 210 that was sitting. When there are a ton of similar types all for sale, you have a lot of bargaining power....assuming you want to deal with the fun of getting it back up to speed.
 
Well, I bought a P28 that had sat a while. I am on my second $10k+ annual in three years (I got away for $5k last year, but they found a wing repair this year, where the spar had been drilled into to hold the skin patch). Not to mention many other repairs in between. The previous owner set the bar on deferred maintenance and had a willing A&P. While it is true that the first guy I hired to do the Pre buy was incompetent, he wouldn't have caught all of it. So far, the engine has only cost me two jugs and a carb (just a small part of it). There are so many other nickel and dime stuff that can be deferred with the right A&P. :(

Hold out for a plane that has been treated right. They are out there.
 
I bought into a PA28-151 that sat for a couple of years as the husband of my original partner had passed away and she hadn't flown and the guy I bought out lost his job and he hadn't flown.

Over the November of 2010 it has flown approx. 250 hours of which I've flown 194. When I had the pre-buy done one cylinder was down around 68 if I recall correctly. A&P chalked it up to some rust around the valve seat because it had sat. He suggested fly it and we'd check them again. At last annual they were 76 across the board.

I've incurred no huge expenses at annual. Last year both spinner back plates were cracked. We replaced the engine mounts and I've had the prop dynamically balanced in hopes of mitigating that although I've since read that this might be a common malady on these things.

Plane went in for annual last Thursday and I've not yet received any "oh-oh" phone calls from my A&P.

That's my experience.
 
There's no guarantee there'll be corrosion, the cam would be my concern on that lyc. Depending on a lot of factors "free" could be paying too much.
 
Your story seems to be closer to the norm. That doesn't mean an inspection shouldn't be performed, but many engines sit through periods of inactivity and continue to perform well for years thereafter.

EppyGA said:
I bought into a PA28-151 that sat for a couple of years as the husband of my original partner had passed away and she hadn't flown and the guy I bought out lost his job and he hadn't flown.

Over the November of 2010 it has flown approx. 250 hours of which I've flown 194. When I had the pre-buy done one cylinder was down around 68 if I recall correctly. A&P chalked it up to some rust around the valve seat because it had sat. He suggested fly it and we'd check them again. At last annual they were 76 across the board.

I've incurred no huge expenses at annual. Last year both spinner back plates were cracked. We replaced the engine mounts and I've had the prop dynamically balanced in hopes of mitigating that although I've since read that this might be a common malady on these things.

Plane went in for annual last Thursday and I've not yet received any "oh-oh" phone calls from my A&P.

That's my experience.
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Id run away if your budget can support something more.."turnkey"
 
EppyGA said:
I bought into a PA28-151 that sat for a couple of years as the husband of my original partner had passed away and she hadn't flown and the guy I bought out lost his job and he hadn't flown.

Over the November of 2010 it has flown approx. 250 hours of which I've flown 194. When I had the pre-buy done one cylinder was down around 68 if I recall correctly. A&P chalked it up to some rust around the valve seat because it had sat. He suggested fly it and we'd check them again. At last annual they were 76 across the board.

I've incurred no huge expenses at annual. Last year both spinner back plates were cracked. We replaced the engine mounts and I've had the prop dynamically balanced in hopes of mitigating that although I've since read that this might be a common malady on these things.

Plane went in for annual last Thursday and I've not yet received any "oh-oh" phone calls from my A&P.

That's my experience.
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Out of curiousity, did you start an oil analysis program to track metals in the oil? How about cutting the oil filter at every change? I love to hear of experiences like yours....
 
Chip Sylverne said:
Out of curiousity, did you start an oil analysis program to track metals in the oil? How about cutting the oil filter at every change? I love to hear of experiences like yours....
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I have been having analysis done on each change. I have had some elevated metals and because of it we changed from Aeroshell to Phillips and began using Camguard while cutting the oil change interval to 25 hours so we can keep on top of things. Have never had any metal in the filter. Last analysis was good. About 12 hours away from the next change.
 
Given only the criteria that it's a PA-28 that has been sitting for a few years there is absolutely no way to answer your question with any credibility but since you asked what is the worst thing I guess I would have to say the engine quits shortly after take-off with your whole family onboard on the first flight after the payment check has been cashed.

I think that would pretty much cover it.
 
Other than having a real good pre-buy done there is things that could get missed but you should have a purtty good idea what you are getting into. If the price is worth looking further into it-I would. Just because it sat for a while doesn't mean that you have a trashed engine.
 
wabower said:
Your story seems to be closer to the norm. That doesn't mean an inspection shouldn't be performed, but many engines sit through periods of inactivity and continue to perform well for years thereafter.
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Agreed. My 170 was similar (flew 10-20 hrs per year in the 2 years before I bought it) and I was able to negotiate a price accordingly and spend the money up front to get it up to speed.

But when there are 30 of the same make and model available for sale at any given time, is it really worth the risk and the money spent on the inspection?
 
John221us said:
Well, I bought a P28 that had sat a while. I am on my second $10k+ annual in three years (I got away for $5k last year, but they found a wing repair this year, where the spar had been drilled into to hold the skin patch). Not to mention many other repairs in between. The previous owner set the bar on deferred maintenance and had a willing A&P. While it is true that the first guy I hired to do the Pre buy was incompetent, he wouldn't have caught all of it. So far, the engine has only cost me two jugs and a carb (just a small part of it). There are so many other nickel and dime stuff that can be deferred with the right A&P. :(

Hold out for a plane that has been treated right. They are out there.
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Wow, you have spent over $25k for annuals and repairs in 3 years? Ouch! :yes:

What did you pay for the plane?
 
I don't think so. The best strategy I have found for buying high-dollar toys is to buy the very best one you can possibly afford, with everything already done and documented insofar as your needs (and most of your wants) are concerned.

Use it for whatever amount of time you think it's fun and then sell it. If you take care of it and keep it in the same condition as when you bought it, your net buy-sell differential will in most cases be far less than if you bought a project like the one Jay is describing. Paying for an inspection and developing a realistic budget (usually 2-3X the original estimate and requiring even more time) is a worthwhile exercise in quantifying the potential exposure, but a probability study of achieving each calculated number should be included in the calculation.

Fearless Tower said:
Agreed. My 170 was similar (flew 10-20 hrs per year in the 2 years before I bought it) and I was able to negotiate a price accordingly and spend the money up front to get it up to speed.

But when there are 30 of the same make and model available for sale at any given time, is it really worth the risk and the money spent on the inspection?
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Geico266 said:
Wow, you have spent over $25k for annuals and repairs in 3 years? Ouch! :yes:

What did you pay for the plane?
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I paid $25K for the plane and yes, I am well over $25K in repairs in three years. That is just the annuals. The two jugs, carb and various panel repairs and other stuff would be in addition to that. There has been a lot of catch up stuff. Cosmetically, the plane looked great.
 
It can go either way. In my case I've had very good luck with engines so far. I also know people who've had bad luck.

The main thing I would look at is the overhaul and maintenance history. A lot of people worry about use but forget about who did the work.
 
Silvaire said:
Given only the criteria that it's a PA-28 that has been sitting for a few years there is absolutely no way to answer your question with any credibility but since you asked what is the worst thing I guess I would have to say the engine quits shortly after take-off with your whole family onboard on the first flight after the payment check has been cashed.

I think that would pretty much cover it.
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This cracks me up
 
As with others, I would factor in the engine teardown and inspection at a minimum. I would say you are looking at a top o-haul, and possibly a cam replacement. At that point, you might as well do a field overhaul and get the signoff for that in the logbook. The rest of the airframe can be looked at carefully. I would suggest having one of the stabilator tips removed so you can look inside that and get an idea about corrosion.

The PA-28 is not a rare bird, or that costly to buy anyway, so unless you get some kind of smokin' deal, it would be best to keep shopping.

I'm one of those guys that buy's fixers like this, and spends many hours cleaning, and repairing things under guidance from an A&P. I can do this kind of work, and many people can't or won't. If you live in an area where good A&P labor is >$100/hour, you are gonna be in deep shyte. OTOH, if you don't mind doing plenty of hand-labor, and can find an A&P willing to supervise for <$40/hour, that can mean a lot of savings on labor intensive tasks.

<edit: I see you are in Ventura CA. So, ignore that stuff about cheap labor. Now I understand why the owner is cashing out his chips. He can't afford to have it taken care of either, and he's looking to escape the madness with as little damage as possible. If you get it for free, it might be a good deal. Anything more is gonna be trouble, unless you demate the wings, and ship the whole thing to -- Arkansas, or somewhere similar.>
 
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Why buy a regular plane unless you can turn the key and go? Isn't that the whole point of owning a plane?
 
ClimbnSink said:
Why buy a regular plane unless you can turn the key and go? Isn't that the whole point of owning a plane?
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Not sure, but maybe this was aimed at me? I buy a regular plane that needs maintenance and help restore it because I like the work, and I like to preserve nice things. I wouldn't buy a PA-28 as I said because they aren't particularly collectible, same with a Cessna for the most part. Maybe a 195 would be fun.

I've bought old cars, boats, and planes and fixed them up. Not intending to make much money, but just to keep nice things. sometimes a make a buck, sometimes not. Either way, I get some interesting things in my log book, and know that stuff I own was in better shape when I sold it.
 
No not you. I understand the elbow grease/extra energy guys, and I can understand being poor and needing to hustle, or knowing enough to buy cheap because you have reserves of elbow grease/knowledge/risk tolerance. The OP doesn't seem to fit in those, seems to be someone that wants a PA-28 to fly, in which case buying one that can fly and likely will stay flying makes the most sense.
docmirror said:
Not sure, but maybe this was aimed at me? I buy a regular plane that needs maintenance and help restore it because I like the work, and I like to preserve nice things. I wouldn't buy a PA-28 as I said because they aren't particularly collectible, same with a Cessna for the most part. Maybe a 195 would be fun.

I've bought old cars, boats, and planes and fixed them up. Not intending to make much money, but just to keep nice things. sometimes a make a buck, sometimes not. Either way, I get some interesting things in my log book, and know that stuff I own was in better shape when I sold it.
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OK. I didn't get that from the OP. People who shop for derelicts or rough planes generally don't strike me as the buy/fly kind. But - that's possible.
 
No. No. A thousand times no.

You will spend much less money finding an airplane that has been flown regularly and is in good shape because it has.
 
docmirror said:
OK. I didn't get that from the OP. People who shop for derelicts or rough planes generally don't strike me as the buy/fly kind. But - that's possible.
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Depends on the goal. When I bought the Aztec, it was definitely a project. I flew it as I improved it, and enjoyed the tinkering opportunities as well as having the satisfaction of improving the plane with use rather than aging it. But I'm the buy/fly/tinker kind.
 
Some guys may have had good luck with planes that have been sitting, I have had precisely two that haven't had engine issues to the tune of 10k or more with in a year or two.

Oddly despite that all of them were Lycoming powered (haven't played with a neglected TCM yet) none have had cam corrosion issues, but pitted cylinder walls and shot lifters have been the norm.
 
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