VW front suspension noise [NA]

[CJones]

I'm back again with more questions about my wife's 99 VW Passat.

A few weeks ago, the front right area would 'squeak/creak' when turning a corner to the left (more pressure on the right side). Since then, it has progressively gotten worse - to the point that it is embarrassing to drive through parking lots or slow streets. There isn't any apparent handling/driving issues - it just makes a gawd-awful noise ALL the time.

Since I am now officially done with summer classes, tonight I finally had the opportunity to investigate the issue further. I took the front right tire off, but I can't find any obvious issues. I put it up on a jack-stand and used the floor jack to move the hub/wheel assembly up and down to try to locate the source of the noise. As I was jacking the front end up, the rear right side also made some creaking noise. I can't pinpoint it 100%, but considering that the car has 171k miles and is still running on original shocks, I am starting to think that it might just be time for new shocks all the way around. Does this seem like a logical solution? I've never had any suspension issues or had to replace shocks/etc on any other vehicles, so this is new territory for me. My truck has over 235k miles and is STILL running on original equipment underneath.

What say the educated masses? Does this sound like a common 'sign' of shocks wearing out? I think I will probably send this problem to a shop for completion - I don't have the tools (nor probably the patience) to deal with replacing shocks all around.

 

[jesse]

Check your brakes. When my car needs new pads it'll start making such a noise when I turn left. It's most annoying in a parking garage.

 

[SCCutler]

Check it quick- it sounds like it also could be the wheel bearing, and a catastrophic failure of that would be, shall we say, entertaining.

At 171k miles, it owes you nothing there!

 

[CJones]

Check your brakes. When my car needs new pads it'll start making such a noise when I turn left. It's most annoying in a parking garage.

This one isn't the brakes. I checked everything pretty well while I had the tire off. Brake pads were in good shape. No uneven wear on the rotors. The noise can be reproduced by pushing down on the fender in the driveway.

There IS a brake issue on the driver-side front, though. *sigh* It has been making a scrubbing/dragging noise for about the same time as the creaking on the opposite side. Finally got around to investigate it tonight and the inner brake pad has worn the rotor VERY unevenly. I'm not sure if the pad is just 'bad' or if something got caught between the pad and rotor or ???, but I will have to replace the rotor and pad at a minimum. Hopefully nothing mechanically wrong with the caliper, etc.

Check it quick- it sounds like it also could be the wheel bearing, and a catastrophic failure of that would be, shall we say, entertaining.

At 171k miles, it owes you nothing there!

I thought about that as well. I had the wheel bearing go out on her previous car and it was a bear to deal with. Luckily, it was an old Pontiac Bonneville and parts were readily available and I caught it before it actually wore through the seal. Fortunately, this isn't a repeat. I checked the hub assembly while I had the tire off. No play whatsoever in the half-shaft assembly or the hub assembly.

After doing some more online research, it is possible that it could be the sway bar bushings making some noise. I looked for 'play' in all the moving part areas, but it seems pretty common to have the rubber bushings make obnoxious noises, especially here in the rust-belt.

I'll dig a little deeper tomorrow when I have more daylight and the 'skeeters aren't carrying me off bit-by-bit. I'm really glad to be done with class so I can FINALLY deal with these issues I've been putting off for so long, but man is it a hassle!

 

[Don Jones]

This one isn't the brakes. I checked everything pretty well while I had the tire off. Brake pads were in good shape. No uneven wear on the rotors. The noise can be reproduced by pushing down on the fender in the driveway.

There IS a brake issue on the driver-side front, though. *sigh* It has been making a scrubbing/dragging noise for about the same time as the creaking on the opposite side. Finally got around to investigate it tonight and the inner brake pad has worn the rotor VERY unevenly. I'm not sure if the pad is just 'bad' or if something got caught between the pad and rotor or ???, but I will have to replace the rotor and pad at a minimum. Hopefully nothing mechanically wrong with the caliper, etc.



I thought about that as well. I had the wheel bearing go out on her previous car and it was a bear to deal with. Luckily, it was an old Pontiac Bonneville and parts were readily available and I caught it before it actually wore through the seal. Fortunately, this isn't a repeat. I checked the hub assembly while I had the tire off. No play whatsoever in the half-shaft assembly or the hub assembly.

After doing some more online research, it is possible that it could be the sway bar bushings making some noise. I looked for 'play' in all the moving part areas, but it seems pretty common to have the rubber bushings make obnoxious noises, especially here in the rust-belt.

I'll dig a little deeper tomorrow when I have more daylight and the 'skeeters aren't carrying me off bit-by-bit. I'm really glad to be done with class so I can FINALLY deal with these issues I've been putting off for so long, but man is it a hassle!

Chris, we see the sway bar bushings squeaking all the time. Silicone grease will shut them up or you can replace them. The other thing that comes to mind are the strut bearing plates. They have rubber mounts in them that sometimes tear and start making a racket.
Good luck with it! If you need anything just yell.

 

[gismo]

I'm back again with more questions about my wife's 99 VW Passat.

A few weeks ago, the front right area would 'squeak/creak' when turning a corner to the left (more pressure on the right side). Since then, it has progressively gotten worse - to the point that it is embarrassing to drive through parking lots or slow streets. There isn't any apparent handling/driving issues - it just makes a gawd-awful noise ALL the time.

Since I am now officially done with summer classes, tonight I finally had the opportunity to investigate the issue further. I took the front right tire off, but I can't find any obvious issues. I put it up on a jack-stand and used the floor jack to move the hub/wheel assembly up and down to try to locate the source of the noise. As I was jacking the front end up, the rear right side also made some creaking noise. I can't pinpoint it 100%, but considering that the car has 171k miles and is still running on original shocks, I am starting to think that it might just be time for new shocks all the way around. Does this seem like a logical solution? I've never had any suspension issues or had to replace shocks/etc on any other vehicles, so this is new territory for me. My truck has over 235k miles and is STILL running on original equipment underneath.

What say the educated masses? Does this sound like a common 'sign' of shocks wearing out? I think I will probably send this problem to a shop for completion - I don't have the tools (nor probably the patience) to deal with replacing shocks all around.

I had a 2002 Passat that came down with the same problem a few miles past the warranty. The dealer wanted $1500+ to replace the front lower control arms and wouldn't consider any break on the price even though the warranty period was just barely expired. I had the work done at an independent shop for about $900 (the parts alone are most of that). Twelve months later I learned that VW was offering to do the work for free.

Your symptoms sound exactly like what I had.

 

[jesse]

There IS a brake issue on the driver-side front, though. *sigh* It has been making a scrubbing/dragging noise for about the same time as the creaking on the opposite side. Finally got around to investigate it tonight and the inner brake pad has worn the rotor VERY unevenly. I'm not sure if the pad is just 'bad' or if something got caught between the pad and rotor or ???, but I will have to replace the rotor and pad at a minimum. Hopefully nothing mechanically wrong with the caliper, etc.

Sounds familar. Maybe someone here that knows more then me can answer this: Why the hell do my pads always wear unevenly on my '98 Pontiac Sunfire? I've replaced the calipers, rotors, and pads (twice)..and that doesn't help. The pads always wear at an angle thin on one side with the other side still thick.

 

[Ted]

Chris, I would look at the control arms. Those cars have an odd 4 ball joint setup, and the only way to change the ball joints is to change the control arms. A friend of mine got a '98 Passat (same car basically) with 140k on it and drove it until he wrecked it at 175k. Within the first 10k miles of ownership he had to replace the control arms (similar symptoms to what you're describing), all four wheel bearings (check them for noise when you spin the wheels, not just for play), and I'm sure some other suspension components. Problem with ball joints is you can't always tell play in them just because the spring holds them in tension.

To the brake issue that you and Jesse are having... Jesse, I'm almost certain your Sunfire has sliding pin calipers, and the Passat may as well, I can't recall. Make sure that the pins are properly lubed up. If they aren't, it is possible for one of the pins to have enough friction in it to cause uneven wear. I've seen issues where people have replaced the calipers because of uneven pad wear only to find all they needed to do was give the pins some good lubrication.

 

[wsuffa]

Does it when pushing on fender?

Sounds like control arms, bushings or struts....

 

[Keith Lane]

If you can bounce on it manually like you were checking shocks and get it to make the noise, I'd get a can of spray lube (like WD-40 or Spray silicone) and try spraying one component at a time until it stopped. Though if you cannot get the spray to penetrate, you might not get the noise to stop. By doing it one at a time, you do at least get the satisfaction of knowing which part is causing the problem. Sounds like the bushings at the top of the strut or a sway bar bushing to me.

 

[flyersfan31]

Sounds familar. Maybe someone here that knows more then me can answer this: Why the hell do my pads always wear unevenly on my '98 Pontiac Sunfire? I've replaced the calipers, rotors, and pads (twice)..and that doesn't help. The pads always wear at an angle thin on one side with the other side still thick.

'Cause it's made by GM?

 

[Ted]

'Cause it's made by GM?

Hmm... my GM vehicles have all been remarkably tolerant to my abuse over the years and miles, and as I recall Jesse's Sunfire has a ton of miles on it. Another friend of mine has over 180k on hers, and it's still functional. My Suburban had 214k and running strong on the original motor and trans when I dumped it (other issues with it were ****ing me off).

In fact, one Mercedes I worked on had a bad right rear caliper where one of the pistons had seized and so it was putting all the braking force on the other pad. The shop was taking advantage of the girl who owned it - every time she brought it in they made her buy a new rotor (that was destroyed) and put new pads on, rather than fixing the actual problem.

 

[Skip Miller]

In fact, one Mercedes I worked on had a bad right rear caliper where one of the pistons had seized and so it was putting all the braking force on the other pad. The shop was taking advantage of the girl who owned it - every time she brought it in they made her buy a new rotor (that was destroyed) and put new pads on, rather than fixing the actual problem.

You are making the assumption that they were smart enough to know the real problem. Or even that there was a real problem. All they do is fix what they see is wrong. They aren't paid to think.

I had this problem with front wheel alignment with my Mercedes. They never could get it right. Well, duhhh. Look upstream and find the worn out part. Nope, never gonna happen at that particular dealership.

-Skip

 

[drizzt76]

Sounds familar. Maybe someone here that knows more then me can answer this: Why the hell do my pads always wear unevenly on my '98 Pontiac Sunfire? I've replaced the calipers, rotors, and pads (twice)..and that doesn't help. The pads always wear at an angle thin on one side with the other side still thick.

Jesse, Make sure the sliders in the caliper are not binding. They should be free and well lubed. The pads most affected by this are the outboard pads. If they are the inboard pads sometimes it's the piston (new caliper) or believe it or not the brake hose. The inside lining of the hose falls apart and acts like a one way valve. Usually its the sliders.

Chris, someone talked about the swaybar bushings and the A-arm bushings...that is where I would look. I used to work on VW's at the Dubuque dealership but they dropped us awhile ago. I havent worked there since 05. The upper strut bushings can also have a popping sound to them.

Good luck.

 

[kevin47881]

Jesse, Make sure the sliders in the caliper are not binding. They should be free and well lubed. The pads most affected by this are the outboard pads. If they are the inboard pads sometimes it's the piston (new caliper) or believe it or not the brake hose. The inside lining of the hose falls apart and acts like a one way valve. Usually its the sliders.

That's where I'd lay my bet.

 

[Ted]

You are making the assumption that they were smart enough to know the real problem. Or even that there was a real problem. All they do is fix what they see is wrong. They aren't paid to think.

I am time and time again disappointed to find that I am actually one of the better mechanics out there...

When I worked at the Jag shop "I don't know" or "That should do it" were not considered acceptable things to tell the customer... you figured it out and fixed it right.

 

[flyersfan31]

When I worked at the Jag shop "I don't know" or "That should do it" were not considered acceptable things to tell the customer... you figured it out and fixed it right.

Except for problems with the old Lucas electric systems, in which case I think those are pretty reasonable answers.

 

[TMetzinger]

It was years before I knew Lucas wasn't the middle name! It was always "That ****ing Lucas"

 

[flyersfan31]

It was years before I knew Lucas wasn't the middle name! It was always "That ****ing Lucas"

A friend (somewhat ditzy) in high school was puzzled by the name of the lead singer for the Stones. She really wanted to know what his FIRST name was, and couldn't figure out why everyone just referred to him by his last name, McJagger. I finally understood her confusion and clued her in. Face = red. Damn funny moment, though.

And now, back to the thread.....

 

[CJones]

UPDATE:

Replaced the left-front rotor and brake pads tonight. I thought those pads looked 'ok' until I saw them next to the new ones. That took care of the scrubbing brake sound. The slider pins were indeed seized up and took some steel wool and lubing before reinstalling to get them back to acceptable. Tomorrow I will replace the right front pads to keep things consistent up front.

As for the original suspension creak -- I tried spraying some grease on all the joints I could get to easily (I was getting eaten up by 'skeeters again) and I did notice a reduction in the loudness of the noise. I also found another clue: When the steering wheel is turned completely to one side (regardless of which direction), pressing down on the fender doesn't make the noise. If the steering wheel is straightened back out, bouncing on the fender makes the noise. Does that point to one component over another? I'll put forth more effort to get into all the joints tomorrow before the 'skeeters get hungry.

 

[Ted]

Except for problems with the old Lucas electric systems, in which case I think those are pretty reasonable answers.

Ahh, you know for all the crap people give Lucas electrical systems, the only problems I ever had with them on my personal were self-induced! The catch is you did need to know about their little idiosyncrasies in order to properly fix the thing. Example: My right taillight is out on my '82 XJ-S. Must be the bulb, right? No, hmm...

First thing to check in this case is the little taillight module (I forget it's exact name). This little silver box in the side of the trunk. Good luck finding THAT if you didn't know it was there!

I've worked on about 200 different Jaguars, and some of them had some monstrous electrical issues, though. The best one I can remembe was a 1990 XJ6, owned by a woman who tipped very well so we fought over who got to work on her car. One time it came in with this problem: The passenger front window won't work, but when you hit the window switch the radio turns on. Turns out it's one of the umpteen billion control modules that car had on it had gone bad.

Back to Chris's problem... Chris, I'm glad you got the brake issue figured out. To your suspension, in thinking about how your front suspension is designed, I'm not sure what exactly would cause you squeaking. I could guess, however, that the ball joints (all 4 of them per side) or tie rod ends could get loaded in such a way at full lock that would cease the noise. I seem to recall you can get new control arms for the thing for about $400 for the set. If the boots on the ball joints are torn, then I would definitely start by replacing those control arms.

 

[Ghery]

Lucas, Prince of Darkness.

I had a 1976 MG Midget once. Enough said.

 

[Anthony]

Lucas, Prince of Darkness.

I had a 1976 MG Midget once. Enough said.

Ha, yeah. Had a 1961 MGA MK II Fixed Head Coupe and a 1967 MGB. The A would only run well when it rained, but the B wouldn't run well when it rained. Drove the A in the rain and the B when sunny with the top down.

 

[Ted]

Lucas, Prince of Darkness.

I had a 1976 MG Midget once. Enough said.

You must not have read Joseph Lucas's book on electrical system diagnostics.

We know that wires are actually hollow and transmit electricity by means of smoke as the conductor. We know this because when the smoke is let out of the wires, they stop transmitting electricity.

People, stop letting the smoke out of your wires and you'll stop having issues! Geez!

 

[Keith Lane]

People, stop letting the smoke out of your wires and you'll stop having issues! Geez!

Or, if it does get out of the wires, you can order replacement smoke!!!!!

http://www3.telus.net/bc_triumph_registry/smoke.htm

 

[Skip Miller]

The slider pins were indeed seized up and took some steel wool and lubing before reinstalling to get them back to acceptable.

Make sure you lubed them with the appropriate lube. Temps in and around the caliper can get hot enough to coke ordinary lubes.

-Skip

 

[Ghery]

You must not have read Joseph Lucas's book on electrical system diagnostics.



People, stop letting the smoke out of your wires and you'll stop having issues! Geez!

Actually, there was a shop in Santa Clara that specialized in restoring old MGs. They had a bumper sticker that I seriously considered buying and putting on the car -

"I'll have you know that the parts falling off this car are of the highest British quality!"

 

[Ted]

Actually, there was a shop in Santa Clara that specialized in restoring old MGs. They had a bumper sticker that I seriously considered buying and putting on the car -

"I'll have you know that the parts falling off this car are of the highest British quality!"

Ahh yes, similar to the one I enjoy for any car afflicted with the disease that is the UAW:

"The parts falling off this car are of the highest Union-made quality!"

 

[flyersfan31]

Ahh yes, similar to the one I enjoy for any car afflicted with the disease that is the UAW:

"The parts falling off this car are of the highest Union-made quality!"

Ted, how dare you!!!!! You doubt the efforts of the UAW?B)B)B)B)B)B)B)

 

[CJones]

Wellp.. I have tried getting grease into every nook and cranny I can get to without tearing the whole front end apart. Still squeaking, and getting worse. It's obviously something that is 'worn' but not 'broken' (yet).

I talked to the VW dealer in Des Moines this morning, gave them the VIN, and they said that the Tie Rod/Control Arm recall from several years ago was 'performed' Jan 05. They inspected it, but did not replace any parts, and that recall is 'taken care of'.

So now I'm back to square one - fixing this thing in my driveway this weekend. Any ideas on where to start throwing parts at it to get the squeaking taken care of? I'd like to start at "inexpensive/easy" and work my way up, but I'll trade "most likely" for some cash as well. I can't pinpoint where the noise is coming from. Tonight, I'll try to raise and lower the jack to try to figure out exactly which joint it's coming from.

Any tips/pointers on getting this taken care of? Any "make sure you don't..." before I get started?

 

[CJones]

The saga continues....

I finally got around to doing some 'heavy' investigation today. While jacking it up, I put my hands on different joints to figure out which one was squeaking. I finally decided that it was the upper control arms. I started by trying to remove the control arm ball joints from the top of the wheel bearing housing. The nut came off, but the bolt was seized in there good and tight. After several minutes of trying to work it loose with a combination of penetrating oil, trying to twist it with a wrench, and pounding on it with a hammer, I came to the conclusion that I didn't want to deal with this problem. I was in the process of putting it back together (simply putting the nut back on the bolt) and I twisted the bolt off! DOH!

Not much choice at that point but to drive the bolt out. For some weird reason, I have accumulated a nice toolset over the years, but have yet to obtain any kind of punch. Made a trip to the hardware store to get a punch set. After another half hour of pounding, twisting, and oiling, the bolt finally comes out. Once I had it apart, I decided to try to actually 'fix' the original problem. I pulled the control arm ball joints and I could twist and turn the front control arm ball joint pin very easily by hand.

Went to the store. Ordered a new control arm. Will be here Friday. Got back and had the whole spring/shock/control arm assembly out in 15 minutes. 'Old' control arm is laying on the floor now. Just waiting on parts. I sure hope this fixes the problem. I hate VW's.

Thanks to everyone here for all the free advice.

 

[Ted]

Yeah, the control arms seemed a likely culprit.

I know you already ordered yours, but I seem to recall that there's a place where you can order all the control arms for both sides for about $400. My friend did this on his '98 Passat. If the one's bad, the rest will probably go bad soon.

 

[CJones]

Yeah, the control arms seemed a likely culprit.

I know you already ordered yours, but I seem to recall that there's a place where you can order all the control arms for both sides for about $400. My friend did this on his '98 Passat. If the one's bad, the rest will probably go bad soon.

I went to the local OReilly Auto Parts store and believe it or not, they said they USUALLY have them in stock, but they are on back-order right now. I got both the the upper control arm and track bar for the right side for ~$130. The track bar really isn't in bad shape, but I went ahead and ordered it while I have everything apart.

While I had the upper control arms disconnected, I raised and lowered the car with the jack to see if there were any other 'squeaky wheels' so to speak. Everything else seems pretty snug. At least if the lower arms go bad, I won't have to remove the whole spring/shock assembly. blah!