VP Waypoints on SFO Class Bravo boundaries

Antonio DiPasquale

Antonio DiPasquale

Filing Flight Plan
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FlyingChemist
Hello All,

First post! I had a question about the SFO Class Bravo boundaries. On the San Francisco TAC, there are a variety of VFR waypoints in the SF Bay Area that start with "VP" and are mostly associated with landmarks for pilotage. However, there is a second set of waypoints that start with "VPB" that are closely associated with and happen to lie on the intersection and inflection points of the SFO Class Bravo boundaries. I took a quick look at LAX, SAN and SEA and they do not have these "VPB" waypoints. So, my question is why does the SFO Class Bravo have these when other Class Bravo airports do not and what are they used for? Would a pilot actually load these "VPB" waypoints for navigation purposes or are they just well-determined "air-buoys" of sorts to be avoided for us bugsmashers?
 
The SF Bravo was redesigned in 2018. The old design used DME distances and VOR radials. The new design utilizes GPS more. Some of the waypoints are used for the VFR flyways which were also revised/added in 2018. I would guess that as airspace is revised, we will see more GPS usage. SLC, for example, has lots of GPS waypoints to help navigate the transition routes like the “Barn Transition.”
 
Qotile said:
The SF Bravo was redesigned in 2018. The old design used DME distances and VOR radials. The new design utilizes GPS more. Some of the waypoints are used for the VFR flyways which were also revised/added in 2018. I would guess that as airspace is revised, we will see more GPS usage. SLC, for example, has lots of GPS waypoints to help navigate the transition routes like the “Barn Transition.”
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Thanks, this makes sense. I was able to find an image of the pre-redesigned SFO Bravo airspace and it was VOR/DME based. I am a little surprised they use the standard 5-letter waypoint fixes for these definition points, however, since they are unlikely to be used for navigation. I guess if there are additional redesigns in the future at other Bravos they will have to come up with some other scheme as that only gives 676 unique combinations (26*26) with the current "VPBXX" scheme.
 
Antonio DiPasquale said:
Hello All,

First post! I had a question about the SFO Class Bravo boundaries. On the San Francisco TAC, there are a variety of VFR waypoints in the SF Bay Area that start with "VP" and are mostly associated with landmarks for pilotage. However, there is a second set of waypoints that start with "VPB" that are closely associated with and happen to lie on the intersection and inflection points of the SFO Class Bravo boundaries. I took a quick look at LAX, SAN and SEA and they do not have these "VPB" waypoints. So, my question is why does the SFO Class Bravo have these when other Class Bravo airports do not and what are they used for? Would a pilot actually load these "VPB" waypoints for navigation purposes or are they just well-determined "air-buoys" of sorts to be avoided for us bugsmashers?
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Here’s the current ‘rules’ about it https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/foa_html/chap12_section_8.html
Says nothing about reserving B as the third character, or any letter as the third, for any particular use. I think someone in on the design of SFO’s B just said hey, I got an idea and there were enough VPBaa’s available to do it. Who knows though, maybe they’re working on making it a thing elsewhere and will make it a ‘convention’ to use.

EDIT: Uh oh. Hold on. See 12-8-3 a. 1. in that order
 
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luvflyin said:
Here’s the current ‘rules’ about it https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/foa_html/chap12_section_8.html
Says nothing about reserving B as the third character, or any letter as the third, for any particular use. I think someone in on the design of SFO’s B just said hey, I got an idea and there were enough VPBaa’s available to do it. Who knows though, maybe they’re working on making it a thing elsewhere and will make it a ‘convention’ to use.

EDIT: Uh oh. Hold on. See 12-8-3 a. 1. in that order
Click to expand...

I was just about to post that exception, which makes the use of the "VPBxx" nomenclature all the more interesting. Obviously, these are not formally VFR waypoints or checkpoints so technically would not be contrary to anything in 12-8-3. I wonder if there is a section somewhere describing the use of GPS in describing or notating airspace boundaries.
 
Antonio DiPasquale said:
...I took a quick look at LAX, SAN and SEA and they do not have these "VPB" waypoints. So, my question is why does the SFO Class Bravo have these when other Class Bravo airports do not and what are they used for?
Click to expand...

It's possible that VP waypoints hadn't been invented yet when LAX, SAN, and SEA class B areas were last redesigned.

Would a pilot actually load these "VPB" waypoints for navigation purposes or are they just well-determined "air-buoys" of sorts to be avoided for us bugsmashers?
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I use them for navigation all the time when flying VFR. You just have to make sure that you're sufficiently below the class B floor at that corner. (I don't use them for IFR, because VP labels are not supposed to be referred to as such by ATC.)

luvflyin said:
EDIT: Uh oh. Hold on. See 12-8-3 a. 1. in that order
Click to expand...

So according to that, they're not supposed to be used to define airspace boundaries. Maybe it will just be a temporary thing, to help avoid bravo busts while pilots are getting familiar with the reconfigured airspace.
 
Palmpilot said:
It's possible that VP waypoints hadn't been invented yet when LAX, SAN, and SEA class B areas were last redesigned.



I use them for navigation all the time when flying VFR. You just have to make sure that you're sufficiently below the class B floor at that corner. (I don't use them for IFR, because VP labels are not supposed to be referred to as such by ATC.)



So according to that, they're not supposed to be used to define airspace boundaries. Maybe it will just be a temporary thing, to help avoid bravo busts while pilots are getting familiar with the reconfigured airspace.
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I’m getting the idea it isn’t temporary and might become a thing. Only downside I could see is more folk running the border with one wing in and one wing out instead of giving a little more space. If one sees that as a downside. Ya may wanna take a pic of your centered needle in case ATC’s Radar don’t agree with your position and they throw a hissy fit over it.
 
luvflyin said:
I’m getting the idea it isn’t temporary and might become a thing. Only downside I could see is more folk running the border with one wing in and one wing out instead of giving a little more space. If one sees that as a downside. Ya may wanna take a pic of your centered needle in case ATC’s Radar don’t agree with your position and they throw a hissy fit over it.
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That's why I make sure I'm well below the lowest of the floors adjacent to the fix.

There was one VFR flight where ATC told me to fly right at the floor of the SEA class B. That made me very nervous!
 
I was just looking at the updated San Francisco TAC and many of the VP Bravo waypoints have been replaced with non-VP GPS waypoints that aren't even marked on the TAC. For example, what was VPAGY is now ANMIL and what was VPBCJ is now VELAN. I wonder if this is an effort to make these waypoints more pronounceable as they are more likely to be used for some navigational purpose as opposed to being just a boundary point for the Bravo...
 
Antonio DiPasquale said:
I was just looking at the updated San Francisco TAC and many of the VP Bravo waypoints have been replaced with non-VP GPS waypoints that aren't even marked on the TAC. For example, what was VPAGY is now ANMIL and what was VPBCJ is now VELAN. I wonder if this is an effort to make these waypoints more pronounceable as they are more likely to be used for some navigational purpose as opposed to being just a boundary point for the Bravo...
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It looks like the replacement designators show up on the low-altitude IFR enroute charts. My guess is that they wanted ATC to be able to refer to them, since VP waypoints are not supposed to be used in that way.
 
I sometimes load a point or two around the ORD B airspace, lakefront transition, whatever. For the most part these are IFR intersections on the ‘low’ chart.

I may not even fly right to them, just reference to keep me out of trouble.
94303073-B315-4F8D-B573-1F47A4490C3D.jpeg
 
Palmpilot said:
It looks like the replacement designators show up on the low-altitude IFR enroute charts. My guess is that they wanted ATC to be able to refer to them, since VP waypoints are not supposed to be used in that way.
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That makes perfect sense. I still wonder why they even went with VPXXX in the first place for defining the Bravo boundaries and not give them pronounceable designators for use by ATC...maybe that required more work up front. Once a designator is removed from use, can/does it get used again or do they remove it permanently as to prevent potential confusion with out of date GPS databases?
 
Antonio DiPasquale said:
That makes perfect sense. I still wonder why they even went with VPXXX in the first place for defining the Bravo boundaries and not give them pronounceable designators for use by ATC...maybe that required more work up front. Once a designator is removed from use, can/does it get used again or do they remove it permanently as to prevent potential confusion with out of date GPS databases?
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There are a lot fewer pronounceable five-letter combinations than unpronounceable ones. Putting designators at every bend in the bravo boundaries uses up a lot of possibilities.

I just wish they would include the pronounceable ones on the TAC.
 
Palmpilot said:
I just wish they would include the pronounceable ones on the TAC.
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I agree, why have the VPXXX ones and not the pronounceable ones. At least they show up on ForeFlight map TAC overlay if you have the Aeronautical box selected in the options. I noticed a few new VPXXX waypoints, like VPDSH for the big radio telescope at Stanford and VPSLT for the salt evaporation ponds southeast of SQL. I wonder when we are going to get ones for the AT&T tower in Redwood City and the Sunken Ship in the middle of the bay... Those seem like obvious ones to mark, as well, since they are used so much for VFR flights inbound to both SQL and PAO.
 
If these VPB* marks are GPS fixes, then were are the coords? Without published coords they are worthless stars on a chart. They are not listed on the TAC and AirNav does not have all of them. AirNav has VPBAB and VPBCC but not VPBEV and VPBCB.
 
Domenick said:
If these VPB* marks are GPS fixes, then were are the coords? Without published coords they are worthless stars on a chart. They are not listed on the TAC and AirNav does not have all of them. AirNav has VPBAB and VPBCC but not VPBEV and VPBCB.
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VPBCB still exists and has coordinates:

https://fltplan.com/fix/VPBCB.htm

VPBEV is not coming up anywhere I search for it. Is this one that was renamed? Where is/was it on the TAC?
 
Domenick said:
If these VPB* marks are GPS fixes, then were are the coords? Without published coords they are worthless stars on a chart.
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I have found that it is possible to enter VP identifiers into a GPS and navigate to them.

They are not listed on the TAC and AirNav does not have all of them. AirNav has VPBAB and VPBCC but not VPBEV and VPBCB.
Click to expand...

VPBEV has been replaced by PRING. I just checked Airnav, and as Antonio pointed out, it is showing VPBCB, which is still on the TAC.
 
By the way, I discovered that it's possible to find the replacement fix names by going to Skyvector.com and right-clicking on a corner that used to have a VP name. This shows fix names in the vicinity of where you click, and by typing that into Skyvector's search window and clicking Go, you can check to see if that moves the crosshairs to the correct spot.
 
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