Vortex Generators on Cherokees?

Daven

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Awesometastic1
Anyone put vortex generators on their piper cherokee? Was there a noticeable difference? I'm thinking of putting the micro aero kit on my '77 Arrow III for a little better short field performance and just wondering if the results are as advertised? Thanks!
 
Had one on my Cherokee. Thing couldn't be stalled, and was controllable no matter what. Stalled about 10 knots slower than a stock Cherokee, and I could land it in about nothing. If you're worried about short strips they're a good thing to have.
 
Mainly a relatively short grass strip my parents have. :) It's technically 3k feet, but the last 500 ft or so pretty bumpy and a slight upslope on the latter half of the strip and really only one way to take off and land as there is a mountain off one side. :) So regardless of winds, one direction :) Luckily winds are usually straight crosswind on it because of slopes around. Upslope to the left, downslope to the right. :)

But given the not totally smooth nature and everything else, the less time spent on the ground rolling the better :)

Any noticable affect on cruise?
 
Any ideas about their effect on a Cessna 150? I have been eying them for a while as a nice way to spend $600. Any it is nice to know that I have more control when my Vx is only 4 mph away from my power on stall speed. On a hot day, maximum Vx may be necessary to get over trees, you never know.
 
No idea on how they perform on either a Cherokee or 150, but on my Commander they were Worth. Every. Penny.

No detectable loss of cruise speed, but improved control and a big drop in the stall speed. Made short fields much more acceptable.

I would do it again in a heartbeat.
 
Unless you fly a Cirrus, modern Mooney, or other 150+ knot plane you won’t have a noticeable drop of cruise speed.
 
Mainly a relatively short grass strip my parents have. :) It's technically 3k feet, but the last 500 ft or so pretty bumpy and a slight upslope on the latter half of the strip and really only one way to take off and land as there is a mountain off one side. :) So regardless of winds, one direction :) Luckily winds are usually straight crosswind on it because of slopes around. Upslope to the left, downslope to the right. :)

But given the not totally smooth nature and everything else, the less time spent on the ground rolling the better :)

Any noticable affect on cruise?
None that I could discern. Really good addition if that short landing is important to you.
 
My experience on a Sundowner is a little different. The stalls were slower, but it had a tendency to enter a spin that was not previously present. Before I put on the VGs, I could not get the plane to stall. It just mushed its way down. After, there was a little more stall behavior, but at a lower speed. Slower than that, she wanted to be on her back.

I don't mind spins under the right circumstances, but my instructor didn't like it.
 
Any ideas about their effect on a Cessna 150? I have been eying them for a while as a nice way to spend $600. Any it is nice to know that I have more control when my Vx is only 4 mph away from my power on stall speed. On a hot day, maximum Vx may be necessary to get over trees, you never know.

In your predecessor the Cessna 140 it made a huge difference! In the air much quicker- still not ready to climb but it’s in ground effect and off the surface to accelerate easier and not be bouncing n hangin around if on rough or soft stuff. It also gives you aileron control darn near at taxi speed! Okay that’s a bit hyperbolic but they really do add crispness when slow. Which I find nice in very light birds like ours... In a crosswind or gusts I have ailerons at landings like I did pre-vg at cruise.. I’d do em if I was you!




Unless you fly a Cirrus, modern Mooney, or other 150+ knot plane you won’t have a noticeable drop of cruise speed.

concur. In my slow ol c140 some folks said “you’re going to give up more speed in that turtle?” No noticeable difference- she cruised 100-110mph before cruises 100-110 now...
 
over at piper forum a lot of people have good things to say about VGs. 'bout speed... when you fly a Cherokee or a 150... i dont think anyone cares of speed or the lack thereof
 
Not a Cherokee but they definitely help with slow speed control authority on my C182. I don’t see any change in stall speed but my plane has the sportsman wing so stall speed was already quite low. I don’t see any speed drop either. They really don’t seem to do anything other than give you more control authority at very slow speeds. Landing with a forward CG in my 182, if I got too slow I could almost run out of elevator. With the VGs that never happens. I have plenty of elevator authority. I also notice I have better rudder authority in a x wind. All in I really don’t see any downside. They don’t seem to affect anything except slow speed control. I can’t imagine it would be any different with a Cherokee.
 
Had one on my Cherokee. Thing couldn't be stalled, and was controllable no matter what. Stalled about 10 knots slower than a stock Cherokee, and I could land it in about nothing. If you're worried about short strips they're a good thing to have.

As long as you dont carry too much in passenger weight with you and have to get someone else to haul them out.
 
Alright, scheduled the upgrade. :) I'll update on the difference when it's done. :)
 
Unless you fly a Cirrus, modern Mooney, or other 150+ knot plane you won’t have a noticeable drop of cruise speed.
In my 180 knot plane I didn’t notice much (if any) loss. Different types maybe are more influenced by them?
 
In a PA-28R? I wouldn't do it. I have an arrow as well and I can't stall that thing. it just mushes down. I do have gap seals so maybe that contributes to the slow speed handling. I don't think you'll gain an appreciable amount of takeoff and landing distances, again particularly for what an Arrow was meant to get in and out of. But it's a hobby, so your money your circus.

If you're gonna prang around dirt, just get a high wing spring leaf airplane.
 
As is seemingly universally true of all pilots, as well as our boating brethren, I believe we all got into this because we hate money and want to get rid of it as fast as possible. ;-)
 
In my 180 knot plane I didn’t notice much (if any) loss. Different types maybe are more influenced by them?
Depends, if they disturb the smooth airflow over a laminar airfoil, they slow you down. On a golf ball, they actually help make it faster. Remember that scene from Howard Hughes movie where he wanted all the rivets to be perfectly flush?
Heck, if your plane was dirty enough and then you clean it before installing the VGs I could imagine you see a slight increase in speed. Either way it’s probably not a lot for most of us.
 
No idea on how they perform on either a Cherokee or 150, but on my Commander they were Worth. Every. Penny.

No detectable loss of cruise speed, but improved control and a big drop in the stall speed. Made short fields much more acceptable.

I would do it again in a heartbeat.

Ditto with my Musketeer, and yes, would do again as well. The extra margin in slow flight is well worth the cost (which compared to other aviation gadgets ain't a whole lot).
 
I suggest flap gap and aileron gap seals. No drag. Slightly decreases drag.
I recently installed Gap seals on my Cherokee. It noticeably reduced indicated stall speeds. Whereas it previously stalled right on the bottom of the white arc (power off - full flaps), as it should, it now stalls at about 40mph indicated. Power-on, it previously stalled at bottom of green arc. (Clean) It now stalls (actually mushes) just under the white arc.
A noticeable difference.
Cruise speed isn’t so much affected. I haven’t worked the numbers yet, but it looks to be about 3kts (4.5mph). I once flew a Cherokee with the VG’s. But it had the gap seals, too. It practically wouldn’t stall. Couldn’t tell if they slowed it any. They were the Large ones. About 5-7 on inboard of wing. I’d suggest the micro VG’s.

A C421 I flew had the Micro VG’s installed. I now wouldn’t fly one without them. They even lowered the insurance enough they pay for themselves in 4yrs. They allow a 270lb increase in gross weight, and eliminated the red line (VMC-SE). On a annual IPC, the check pilot had me full throttle the right engine and idle/windmill the left and attempt to stall it (demonstrate VMC!). It just sagged the left wing and then bobbed, stalling like an uncoordinated Skyhawk. It still had rudder control. (VG’s also on vertical stabilizer).

I believe in the gap seals and VG’s.
 
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Anyone put vortex generators on their piper cherokee? Was there a noticeable difference? I'm thinking of putting the micro aero kit on my '77 Arrow III for a little better short field performance and just wondering if the results are as advertised? Thanks!

I am new to the forum, Cherokee 140 owner, commercial pilot SEL, based at 06A home of the Tuskegee airmen.
My 140 is does not have VGs and a buddy of mine on the field has a 140 with VGs at the wing roots. They are the L shaped fence style and secured with what look like button head 632 screws. There is no real difference in the stall speed or top speed performance. We both stall around the 50mph (ias) mark and cruise around 105kts (tas). The most noticeable difference is the intense buffet at high AOA with the VG's. The Cherokee wing its self doesn't really get a performance increase from VG's because of the airfoil profile. The purpose of VG's is to keep the boundary layer moving and delay stall onset, the Cherokee wing was designed to maintain laminar flow at a wide range of AOA's and thus doesn't need VGs. This wing shape is also why Cherokees have positive aileron control in a stall unlike many other aircraft and why they tend to have benign stall characteristics in general.
 
Just an update, got the VG's on and very impressed so far. Haven't been able to put them through their paces yet (just two 1.5 hour flights), but definitely very noticable additional authority on the controls when slow. And just for fun rotated at 65 instead of 80 like normal as per the POH and normally doing that really have to force it off the runway. It will fly, but doesn't want to. :) But this time just jumped off like a normal, faster takeoff. :) Landed it slower than normal too and was down to 52 on touch down and still had some authority left and a gentle touch down. Normal stall dirty is 55. Granted, was at half fuel at the time and only a few hundred pounds on top of that, but still. Slowest I've ever landed it and I still had some wiggle room. I'll take it up sometime soon and play with some stalls and see how it does and update for anyone interested. But the extra authority when slow is already worth it.

Also no discernable change in cruise. 140-150 knots at around 9k ft and leaned to 10 gallons an hour same as always. If there is a difference there, it's negligible.
 
My experience on a Sundowner is a little different. The stalls were slower, but it had a tendency to enter a spin that was not previously present. Before I put on the VGs, I could not get the plane to stall. It just mushed its way down. After, there was a little more stall behavior, but at a lower speed. Slower than that, she wanted to be on her back.

I don't mind spins under the right circumstances, but my instructor didn't like it.

Les, I’ve never had that problem with my Sundowner! I can do slow flight with 1 notch of flaps as low as 56 kts and it’s only losing altitude at <100 fpm. No tendency to roll, but obviously high angle of attach.


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Just an update, got the VG's on and very impressed so far. Haven't been able to put them through their paces yet (just two 1.5 hour flights), but definitely very noticable additional authority on the controls when slow. And just for fun rotated at 65 instead of 80 like normal as per the POH and normally doing that really have to force it off the runway. It will fly, but doesn't want to. :) But this time just jumped off like a normal, faster takeoff. :) Landed it slower than normal too and was down to 52 on touch down and still had some authority left and a gentle touch down. Normal stall dirty is 55. Granted, was at half fuel at the time and only a few hundred pounds on top of that, but still. Slowest I've ever landed it and I still had some wiggle room. I'll take it up sometime soon and play with some stalls and see how it does and update for anyone interested. But the extra authority when slow is already worth it.

Also no discernable change in cruise. 140-150 knots at around 9k ft and leaned to 10 gallons an hour same as always. If there is a difference there, it's negligible.
After I had the VGs put on the Commander I was out doing slow flight and practicing stalls and on flight following. ATC called me and asked if I was OK as I was showing ground speed under 5 knots.
 
140-150 knots at around 9k ft and leaned to 10 gallons an hour same as always. If there is a difference there, it's negligible.

In a Cherokee? Not buying it.
 
It's an Arrow III Turbo with all the speed mods.

If I run it closer to 12-13 gallons an hour it actually boosts it about 5 knots on top of that typically at that altitude. But running it at 10 gallons an hour runs a bit cooler and only sacrificing about 5 knots or so for the fuel savings and cooler temps. Winter time if I'm in a hurry and on a long cross country of 4-5 hours (it has the 72 gallon tanks) I'll sometimes bump it up as the temps stay pretty cool then no matter what. But otherwise 10 gallons an hour is the sweet spot for cool temps, fuel efficiency, and speed.

Up higher it goes a lot faster. :) The Arrow III Turbo really shines up at 15k+. :)
 
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It's an Arrow III Turbo with all the speed mods.

If I run it closer to 12-13 gallons an hour it actually boosts it about 5 knots on top of that typically at that altitude. But running it at 10 gallons an hour runs a bit cooler and only sacrificing about 5 knots or so for the fuel savings and cooler temps. Winter time if I'm in a hurry and on a long cross country of 4-5 hours (it has the 72 gallon tanks) I'll sometimes bump it up as the temps stay pretty cool then no matter what. But otherwise 10 gallons an hour is the sweet spot for cool temps, fuel efficiency, and speed.

Up higher it goes a lot faster. :) The Arrow III Turbo really shines up at 15k+. :)

Thread title said Cherokee. I was thinking there's no way a Cherokee is doing that.
 
Thread title said Cherokee. I was thinking there's no way a Cherokee is doing that.

I was really just wondering on the Cherokee line of planes as they are all relatively similar. :) But mine is the Arrow III Turbo variety with all the speed mods, which has been faster than I was originally led to believe before buying it. Even the old owner undersold its speed, though he said he almost never took it up past a few thousand feet so wasn't sure its speed up high. :) Seemed a little odd to me at the time, but his quoted speeds down low were about right. :) Take it up to it's upper envelope and it gets really fast. :)
 
Fact is that if you spend $600 on your plane it's just gonna be fantastic. Doesn't matter what it is.
 
Took it up and played around with stalling. Landing config and seemed to stall around 50-51 knots consistently, so lopped a few knots off. The stall was also even more benign than normal, which is saying something as it already was before. I could just hold it back and it would just slightly bob the nose down and then back to flying and repeat. Similar to normal but just less of a drop of the nose and recovery was quicker.

Beyond the slight reduction in stall speed from before and slightly more docile, the biggest thing really does seem to be how much authority I have in slow flight and in that ultra slow near stall state. Doesn't feel nearly as mushy as before. Really enjoying that on gusty landings. :)

So really all sort of as advertised. Nothing magical but very nice improvements to an already docile and easy to fly plane. :)
 
Reading this thread it sounds like y’all are flying around in slow flight mode?
Other than flight reviews and the final few seconds of a landing, my plane never gets close stall speed.
 
I remember during training doing what seemed like hours of slow flight, I got somewhat frustrated with my instructor and asked “ when am I ever gonna fly like this”? He just smiled and said, “every time you land”. Anything that can make that easier and/or safer is ok by me.
 
Reading this thread it sounds like y’all are flying around in slow flight mode?
Other than flight reviews and the final few seconds of a landing, my plane never gets close stall speed.

If you can land slower, you can land shorter, and that can allow you to go more places.
 
Reading this thread it sounds like y’all are flying around in slow flight mode?
Other than flight reviews and the final few seconds of a landing, my plane never gets close stall speed.

The worst place for me to practice slow-flight is right as I'm landing. There I want it nailed down :D I'm amazed at what flying around with the stall horn blaring @ 3K has done for my landings and I still get the same last foot practice going home.
 
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I have also heard they will make you smarter, taller, and better looking!
… and improve sexual prowess and skill with crossword puzzles. :)

Since to my knowledge no one has ever done independent professional performance tests on any of these add-ons, and an owner who's just dropped a lot of money on them really wants them to work (and will probably see what they want to see), it's hard to trust that there's a practical difference. None of of the aviation publications has an incentive to drop tens of thousands for professional tests that might accomplish nothing but make their advertiser's products look bad.

My WAG is that 10% of them actually do something useful, but we don't know which 10%.
 
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… and improve sexual prowess and skill with crossword puzzles. :)

Since to my knowledge no one has ever done independent professional performance tests on any of these add-ons, and an owner who's just dropped a lot of money on them really wants them to work (and will probably see what they want to see), it's hard to trust that there's a practical difference. None of of the aviation publications has an incentive to drop tens of thousands for professional tests that might accomplish nothing but make their advertiser's products look bad.

My WAG is that 10% of them actually do something useful, but we don't know which 10%.

I seriously doubt that Micro Aerodynamics could develop the STC for each specific airplane for VGs without significant professional flight design and testing! I guess I’m not understanding what you mean.


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I seriously doubt that Micro Aerodynamics could develop the STC for each specific airplane for VGs without significant professional flight design and testing! I guess I’m not understanding what you mean.
To get the STC, all they have to do is demonstrate that it does no harm. There's no validation at all of any performance-enhancement claims. I could get an STC to for putting lightning-bolt decals on the side of your windows to make the plane go faster, as long as I convinced the FAA that the decals didn't harm the plane's flight characteristics.

Also note that there's no testing at all (even by the FAA) of how different mods work together. There was an accident a while back — I can't remember if it was in Canada or the U.S. — where there was a concern that two STC'd mods together had impeded the aircraft's performance, even though each was safe on its own.
 
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To get the STC, all they have to do is demonstrate that it does no harm. There's no validation at all of any performance-enhancement claims.
The FAA lets them publish new V speeds for Senecas (including lowering Vmc by 9 mph). They have the ability to change the marking on your airspeed indicator to reflect the new numbers. They also allow a 168 pound increase in the MZFW. You may be right but I find it hard to believe that the FAA would allow them to let owners change critical indicated airspeeds and load the airplane 168 pounds about the certified POH ZFW without having demonstrated that that was tested and safe.

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To get the STC, all they have to do is demonstrate that it does no harm. There's no validation at all of any performance-enhancement claims. I could get an STC to for putting lightning-bolt decals on the side of your windows to make the plane go faster, as long as I convinced the FAA that the decals didn't harm the plane's flight characteristics.
I highly doubt that there’s no validation, even for airplanes for which they don’t publish performance changes.

Also note that there's no testing at all (even by the FAA) of how different mods work together. There was an accident a while back — I can't remember if it was in Canada or the U.S. — where there was a concern that two STC'd mods together had impeded the aircraft's performance, even though each was safe on its own.
It’s been in the Limitations section of STCs for as long as I can remember that it’s the responsibility of the installer to make that determination.
 
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