VOR Only Instrument Flying

M

Matt Goodrich

Pre-Flight
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Nov 15, 2020
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34
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Poulsbo, WA
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Display name:
Matt
Everything I have flown so far has had a WAAS GPS, but the bonanza I just picked up does not have a GPS that can be updated to be current, so I’m figuring out how I can fly IFR when needed using only radio based navigation. I have a single nav radio, and I’m curious when filing my route if the first fix will have to be a VOR? Without DME, or a second radio it seems like I could not go direct to a fix. Am I thinking about this wrong?
 
Keep in mind that you can still use an expired database for en-route navigation, as long as the data is still correct. You just can’t use it for approaches. That said, it all depends what kind of GPS you have and whether or not it’s certified for IFR to begin with.
 
Your departure airport may have an instrument departure procedure that you can use.

and yes, from there to a VOR.

IRL, you’ll probably end up with radar vectors for the beginning. You simply can’t file this.
 
I am asking myself why you would even remotely consider operating an airplane with 1 nav com and an unsupported RNAV under IFR. The answer I came up with is the date is July 3, you don’t have to work tomorrow and have consumed too many hard beverages. When you sober up tomorrow, I hope you rethink this.
 
RyanB said:
Keep in mind that you can still use an expired database for en-route navigation, as long as the data is still correct. You just can’t use it for approaches.
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Where did you read his GPS was IFR approved?
 
MauleSkinner said:
What do you mean by “direct to a fix” that you could do with DME or a second radio?
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I did assume with crossing radials from 2 VORs it could theoretically be possible if you could intercept a radio from a DP or something. DME I thought maybe an edge case for something?
 
Matt Goodrich said:
Everything I have flown so far has had a WAAS GPS, but the bonanza I just picked up does not have a GPS that can be updated to be current, so I’m figuring out how I can fly IFR when needed using only radio based navigation. I have a single nav radio, and I’m curious when filing my route if the first fix will have to be a VOR? Without DME, or a second radio it seems like I could not go direct to a fix. Am I thinking about this wrong?
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Your going to be limited to VOR based navigation. It is possible that an Intersection on an Airway could be your first fix. Give us a pair of Airports, from-to, and lets play with it.
 
Clip4 said:
I am asking myself why you would even remotely consider operating an airplane with 1 nav com and an unsupported RNAV under IFR. The answer I came up with is the date is July 3, you don’t have to work tomorrow and have consumed too many hard beverages. When you sober up tomorrow, I hope you rethink this.
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I don’t think I’d be super comfortable in IMC, but I would like to stay current until my panel gets redone in a few months.
 
Clip4 said:
I am asking myself why you would even remotely consider operating an airplane with 1 nav com and an unsupported RNAV under IFR. The answer I came up with is the date is July 3, you don’t have to work tomorrow and have consumed too many hard beverages. When you sober up tomorrow, I hope you rethink this.
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My first airplane only had one Nav/Com. It did have an ILS on the one Nav/Com head & marker beacons.. I flew actual IFR in it all the time but I always had an escape route ie VFR WX close by. I didn't consider this unsafe. I did do a lot of channel flipping though to identify intersections.

Also, since most of us use ForeFlight of some other EFB I think flying IFR with one Nav/Com is perfectly safe.
 
saddletramp said:
My first airplane only had one Nav/Com. It did have an ILS on the one Nav/Com head & marker beacons.. I flew actual IFR in it all the time but I always had an escape route ie VFR WX close by. I didn't consider this unsafe. I did do a lot of channel flipping though to identify intersections.

Also, since most of us use ForeFlight of some other EFB I think flying IFR with one Nav/Com is perfectly safe.
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:yeahthat:
I Agree as long as you have readily available outs (fly to VFR conditions)I see no issue flying IFR with just a VOR. Without a DME there are probably a very limited number of approaches you can do, but there are some. We used to do it all the time with just VOR’s. Now you have you GPS/EFB for situational awareness, we didn’t used to have even that. If the VOR were to fail there is no issue with using your VFR GPS/EFB to get you to VFR conditions. But you should be able to do that with Dead Reckoning also.


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
saddletramp said:
My first airplane only had one Nav/Com. It did have an ILS on the one Nav/Com head & marker beacons.. I flew actual IFR in it all the time but I always had an escape route ie VFR WX close by. I didn't consider this unsafe. I did do a lot of channel flipping though to identify intersections.

Also, since most of us use ForeFlight of some other EFB I think flying IFR with one Nav/Com is perfectly safe.
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With VOR decom., in some parts of the US just complying with the 30 day accuracy check is going to be challenge and the availability of VOR and LOC is also declining rapidly.
 
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Matt,

What kind of GPS do you have installed? If it is IFR approved, it may still be used for enroute and terminal navigation with an expired database if you verify the fixes or facilities. In some cases, it may even be used for GPS approaches, depending on the AFMS. If the GPS is a GNS430 or similar, it will have conventional approaches and there is no prohibition on using it for these approaches, including DME substitution, although you will need to verify the distances are based on locations that can be verified using current data (example from a current approach chart).
 
John Collins said:
Matt,

What kind of GPS do you have installed? If it is IFR approved, it may still be used for enroute and terminal navigation with an expired database if you verify the fixes or facilities. In some cases, it may even be used for GPS approaches, depending on the AFMS. If the GPS is a GNS430 or similar, it will have conventional approaches and there is no prohibition on using it for these approaches, including DME substitution, although you will need to verify the distances are based on locations that can be verified using current data (example from a current approach chart).
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it’s a Trimble TNL2000T
 
That is pretty old. Database support was dropped in 2008. Airports and VOR's don't move often, so may still be usable, although airports do change their identifiers from an FAA ID to an ICAO ID. If you verify the locations of the VOR's in the database, it is likely they will still be usable as long as the AFMS says you can use an out of date database if you verify the points. You may also be able to enter the latitude/longitude of points as user waypoints and use them for navigation.
 
I tried flying with one radio,using crossing radials. Was too much work so I purchased a garmin portable gps . Made it a lot easier. Of course the gps was only for spatial recognition.
 
The cost of any WAAS based IFR certified GPS may save your life one day. I think that’s worth it if you ask me.
 
When I started my IFR training there was no GPS. We had a 172 with one ILS/VOR, one VOR only, and an ADF. The ADF only got used to meet the requirements of having three approaches on your checkride.
 
Clip4 said:
Where did you read his GPS was IFR approved?
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I’m guessing you deliberately ignored the last part of my reply where I asked that very thing…?
 
John Collins said:
That is pretty old. Database support was dropped in 2008. Airports and VOR's don't move often, so may still be usable, although airports do change their identifiers from an FAA ID to an ICAO ID. If you verify the locations of the VOR's in the database, it is likely they will still be usable as long as the AFMS says you can use an out of date database if you verify the points. You may also be able to enter the latitude/longitude of points as user waypoints and use them for navigation.
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Seems I remember reading that Lat/Long as a substitute for Named Waypoints is a no no. I mean waypoints to include fixes/navaiads
 
A pilot that I knew told me of flying a USAF B-57 solo transcontinental with only an ADF. I assume that it was in "A" airspace.
 
In my area, you would be on radar vectors the majority of the time. Most of the VORs are out of service either for an extended period or permanently. There are usable VOR approaches to maybe 2 airports that I can think of. Hopefully an ILS/LOC approach is available where you want to go.
 
frfly172 said:
I tried flying with one radio,using crossing radials. Was too much work so I purchased a garmin portable gps . Made it a lot easier. Of course the gps was only for spatial recognition.
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This was routine for Army Huey pilots. Try holding at a two radial intersection with only one VOR/LOC. The fuel gauge seems to grow to the size of a wall clock when in the klag. Army pilots have fast hands.
Back in the Nam, it was done with ADF because Hueys didn't have TACAN.
 
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Matt Goodrich said:
I did assume with crossing radials from 2 VORs it could theoretically be possible if you could intercept a radio from a DP or something. DME I thought maybe an edge case for something?
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Theoretically yes. I've actually homed in on two crossing radials. I used to find my home base a night that way when I was a new pilot. And I did it once on a practice instrument approach. Plus "TACAN point-to-point" which formalizes the process was a military staple for decades. But IMO, it is not part of today's NAS, as I discuss in my article, Dead Reckoning Under IFR
 
Yes IFR can be done with your setup, but you will have to be on point the entire flight. I learned on 2 VOR setup, and now with GPS I feel like the workload was reduced significantly. And then with auto pilot, reduced even more. I am not as mentally drained as I was when I did VOR IFR only.
 
Yes - years ago a person could do IFR with ADF, one nav com, a sextant and looking over the side of side of the open cockpit bi plane to read the name of the town on the rail road station depot.

Given the smaller number if VORs, and the reliability of the remaining ones, I can’t see you ever wanting to fly IFR with your current set up.

Get a GTN 650 to get your GPS and second nav/com.
 
No problem, even today I fly single NAV IFR in my Skywagon. It's a good skill to have and it will hone your needleology.

Tune and twist baby! Tune and twist!
 
Clip4 said:
I am asking myself why you would even remotely consider operating an airplane with 1 nav com and an unsupported RNAV under IFR. The answer I came up with is the date is July 3, you don’t have to work tomorrow and have consumed too many hard beverages. When you sober up tomorrow, I hope you rethink this.
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OH hogwash. Sounds like your skills are a bit rusty ;). Single CDI IFR is just fine even today.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
OH hogwash. Sounds like your skills are a bit rusty ;). Single CDI IFR is just fine even today.
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Where do you fly? My little bit of the world is the ATL area, which is what my humble opinion is based on.
 
Maxnr said:
This was routine for Army Huey pilots. Try holding at a two radial intersection with only one VOR/LOC. The fuel gauge seems to grow to the size of a wall clock when in the klag. Army pilots have fast hands.
Back in the Nam, it was done with ADF because Hueys didn't have TACAN.
Click to expand...

Yep, when I retired there were still plenty of Army aircraft with no IFR GPS in them. The navigation landscape hasn’t change much in 10 years and a VOR / LOC only aircraft can still survive today. Single pilot though? Eh, I think I’d want a a good GPS.
 
Matt Goodrich said:
I don’t think I’d be super comfortable in IMC, but I would like to stay current until my panel gets redone in a few months.
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Says here your from Poulsbo. Bremerton KPWT is close. You could stay current there with one VOR. You'd have a little work to do identifying intersections but it's really not that hard. Do you have access to a Simulator? One flight with a CFII who has experience doing it should be enough to get you going. There are still quite a few Victor Airways out west there where you are. Lotsa places you could go. You just have to get use to getting established on a radial, finding the holding heading, then tuning the cross radial VOR, wait for the Intersection, then go back to the on course VOR. It's really not that big a deal once you've done it a few times.
 
The first sentence was “Everything I have flown so far has had a WAAS GPS,”

No recent - if ever- proficiency at using only one Nav. No proficiency of flying without GPS.

Another thought to ponder - how long and how much to fly with a CFII and/or safety Pilot to get proficient at a skill that will offer limited IFR flying?
 
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