VOR Only Instrument Flying

midlifeflyer said:
Tip: if you want to remain proficient with VOR navigation and flying VOR and ILS/localizer approaches, remove the GPS from the equation when you do it. Don't load the approach, cover the screen, use only green needles. I've begun to think about doing that in IPCs.
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That’s really good practice. Not sure if it’s good for an IPC though (folks are already very nervous).
 
Trogdor said:
That’s really good practice. Not sure if it’s good for an IPC though (folks are already very nervous).
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A little philosophy. I know an IPC is often seen as more like a checkride than a flight review but I have no problem covering both concepts in a single session. So I specifically include at least one real world task (usually a GPS one) experience tells me the pilot may not know how to do at all. Sometimes it's in the air, sometimes it forms the basis of a ground discussion. Either way, it's the subject of discussion ahead of time.

The problem I see is, while the ACS permits using GPS on a VOR approach, I think it's unrealistic. I can't even imagine why I would want to fly a VOR approach for anything other than practice unless there was a loss of GPS.
 
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Tower enroute canned routes in Southern California are predicated solely on VOR. Great practice in flying with only one VOR receiver.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Enough that you can do it if caught in a GPS outage.
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You..... are right. I see your point and agree.

I also should be able to do a VOR / ILS only as an emergency back up. Good to also keep up with engine out practice, etc.

Although I would still personally not fly without a GPS, nor would I use non GPS as my primary navigation - it's just too risky and limiting IMHO.

So we somewhat agree. Appreciate your POV; it's helped refine mine.
 
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Mtns2Skies said:
Limiting... sure. But Risky? What risk do you see? People flew IFR for generations successfully without GPS's.
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I did it with one Mark II Omnigator. 27 transmitting crystals, whistle-stop comm receiver. VOR and LOC, no GS. No DME, no transponder. Hard IFR.
 
Here is a good one: VFR at 6,500. After GVO do the full approach VOR Rwy 8 at KIZA. You never have to talk to ATC. One VOR receiver, no DME. Ony comm: CTAF at departure and arrival:

KOKB..OCN.V23.DANAH.V363.BAYJY.V186.RZS.V12.GVO..KIZA
 
luvflyin said:
Seems I remember reading that Lat/Long as a substitute for Named Waypoints is a no no. I mean waypoints to include fixes/navaiads
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Correct, it certainly is permitted to file a lat-long as a point in a flight plan, but using a lat-long to substitute for a named fix or navigation facility is not supported by AC 90-108.
 
My club recently added a round-dial AATD "sim" to its assortment of G1000 AATDs. One thing I've noticed is that my round-dial scan has really deteriorated from exclusively using G1000 equipment for IFR currency. (The AATD seems to be more demanding in that regard than a real airplane, perhaps due to the lack of force feedback on the yoke,)
 
aterpster and I seem to have been training about the same time. Omnigator with 3 crystals, but no real IFR.

Then a one and a half solid state with no ILS, but three light marker receiver. Hood IFR and my PPL check ride in that. Since that was the first year of the new requirement that PPL training include minimal IFR skills, the Examiner required me, under the hood, to identify, intercept, and track a VOR radial.

After IFR rating, a lot of REAL IFR with 2 nav coms, one with glide slope, and 3 light marker.

That was back in the day when the FAA was installing new VORs regularly. Today, radar vectors seem to be a working substitute for segments without Victor airways.

Today, I think it would be unwise to fly with a single nav com, no ILS, unless the ceiling was a thousand feet above the MEA for the whole route.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
What risk do you see? People flew IFR for generations successfully without GPS's.
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I think the bigger "risk" holistically is proficiency from the OP. If all your flying previously was with magenta lines on 430 and 530 then the sudden departure from that can have a bit of a learning curve. It's not just "follow the needle" there's a bit more going on with tracking strictly a vor radial and setting headings, correcting for wind drift, HSI precession, etc. Certainly can be done, but the OP shouldn't go into hard IFR laissez faire assuming he'll be able to get a perfect signal on the VOR 50 miles out

aterpster said:
KOKB..OCN.V23.DANAH.V363.BAYJY.V186.RZS.V12.GVO..KIZA
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I have flown virtually this exact same route, only difference is it started from MYF


and to that point.. GPS aint perfect either. More than once I've had the GPS signal disappear (but always the RNAV 17 at SEE... I'm looking at you Miramar as culprit). That can be nerve wracking when you're IMC and suddenly the 430 s#!ts the bed. Luckily there is a LOC-D there as well for 27.. but it can be eye opening when you're pretty little map showing you exactly where you are just poof disappears
 
Tantalum said:
...GPS aint perfect either. More than once I've had the GPS signal disappear (but always the RNAV 17 at SEE... I'm looking at you Miramar as culprit). That can be nerve wracking when you're IMC and suddenly the 430 s#!ts the bed. Luckily there is a LOC-D there as well for 27.. but it can be eye opening when you're pretty little map showing you exactly where you are just poof disappears
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At least that one is close enough to the ocean that you know that climbing to the west will keep you off the rocks. Having it happen with mountains on all sides would really be scary.
 
geezer said:
Today, I think it would be unwise to fly with a single nav com, no ILS, unless the ceiling was a thousand feet above the MEA for the whole route.
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Agree. Do it VFR for practice.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
So? Even Gyro HSI's are slaved to magnetic transmitters and flux gates
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luvflyin said:
Some of them are Gyro driven
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Ideally. There is a "fancy" old school King HSI in a few of our club planes. I forget which one but for a while it did not work in slave mode and it took some periodic +/- adjusting to keep with the compass

Felt very "high tech" when that was fixed and could just leave it on slave!

Palmpilot said:
At least that one is close enough to the ocean that you know that climbing to the west will keep you off the rocks. Having it happen with mountains on all sides would really be scary.
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The whole outtage was maybe 20 seconds.. but since then I just start with the LOC-D for SEE if I happen to be going there. But it is a good lesson in keeping up non-GPS flying skills. What's strange is Foreflight never lost GPS.. but I'm not the only plane who's had that happen around here
 
Tantalum said:
Ideally. There is a "fancy" old school King HSI in a few of our club planes. I forget which one but for a while it did not work in slave mode and it took some periodic +/- adjusting to keep with the compass
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luvflyin said:
King 55. You could get them slaved or un-slaved. Mine was slaved, but sometimes the slave would escape.
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Learned something new today. Thanks!
 
I'm actually at the airport now headed up for some flying so grab the picture from one of the club planes.. for the longest time this would not work in slave and would precess when in manual mode

PXL_20220705_163910559.jpg PXL_20220705_163904665.jpg
 
WDD said:
You..... are right. I see your point and agree.

I also should be able to do a VOR / ILS only as an emergency back up. Good to also keep up with engine out practice, etc.

Although I would still personally not fly without a GPS, nor would I use non GPS as my primary navigation - it's just too risky and limiting IMHO.

So we somewhat agree. Appreciate your POV; it's helped refine mine.
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We more than "somewhat" agree :)

Everything other than the "risky" part.
 
Mxfarm said:
If there so few VOR’s why are there still low enroute charts?
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There's still times when there isn't RADAR. I was flying down from VKX to SSI once and they said "We gotta put you on an airway, Seymour-Johnson's RADAR is out." I then got to do the full up position report thing (gotta love the 480, expanding the flight plan and getting time enroute to the upcoming intersections makes it too easy).
 
Mtns2Skies said:
So? Even Gyro HSI's are slaved to magnetic transmitters and flux gates. To my knowledge, no HSI's precess.
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Not universally. I had a friend with a MX-7-235 that had a cheap-ass unslaved century HSI.
 
midlifeflyer said:
We more than "somewhat" agree :)

Everything other than the "risky" part.
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Since there are fewer and fewer VOR's, the options for alternative airports are limited if the weather goes bad. With RVAV's you can land at just about any airport.

VOR's approaches have higher minimum's than RNAV's, making it more likely to not be available. You might get lucky and find VOR navigation to an ILS approach, but those are fewer as well.

And given the state of repair with VOR's, and my personal experiences, the VOR you are depending on is much, much more likely to become inop than a GPS outage.
 
WDD said:
You might get lucky and find VOR navigation to an ILS approach, but those are fewer as well.
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What? I think if you tried navigating and flying approaches without your GPS you might have a lot more luck than you think you might...
 
Not really around here where I fly. More options with GPS vs VORs.
 
WDD said:
Since there are fewer and fewer VOR's, the options for alternative airports are limited if the weather goes bad. With RVAV's you can land at just about any airport.

VOR's approaches have higher minimum's than RNAV's, making it more likely to not be available. You might get lucky and find VOR navigation to an ILS approach, but those are fewer as well.

And given the state of repair with VOR's, and my personal experiences, the VOR you are depending on is much, much more likely to become inop than a GPS outage.
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I guess that depends on one's definition of "risky." I was limiting myself to the safety of the act of flying VOR and ILS approaches, not their availability or eve the need for a no-go decision.
 
WDD said:
Since there are fewer and fewer VOR's, the options for alternative airports are limited if the weather goes bad. With RVAV's you can land at just about any airport.

VOR's approaches have higher minimum's than RNAV's, making it more likely to not be available. You might get lucky and find VOR navigation to an ILS approach, but those are fewer as well.

And given the state of repair with VOR's, and my personal experiences, the VOR you are depending on is much, much more likely to become inop than a GPS outage.
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Kind of a “doesn’t matter what the weather is, we’re going anyway” approach to ADM?
 
Eh- If weather was perfectly predictable you wouldn't need alternates.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I guess that depends on one's definition of "risky." I was limiting myself to the safety of the act of flying VOR and ILS approaches, not their availability or eve the need for a no-go decision.
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That too I guess. GPS gives that much more situational awareness, decreases pilot work load, etc. It all adds up IMHO. Must be some reason people buy GPS navigators.
 
WDD said:
That too I guess. GPS gives that much more situational awareness, decreases pilot work load, etc. It all adds up IMHO. Must be some reason people buy GPS navigators.
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Of course.
 
WDD said:
That too I guess. GPS gives that much more situational awareness, decreases pilot work load, etc. It all adds up IMHO. Must be some reason people buy GPS navigators.
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I can't get my head wrapped around that decreases pilot workload thing. In my experience it increases workload. All the button pushing and tapping. Get one little push or tap wrong and you have to start all over sometimes. I sometimes joke that GPS was invented to increase autopilot sales. But then I was raised on VOR so my opinion is probably somewhat prejudiced . To me it's big advantage is it makes Approaches available to so many airports that wouldn't have them otherwise. I kinda see it as a substitute for situational awareness. You just have to look at the map and see the situation. Awareness not needed.
 
I think the workload depends a lot on how familiar you are with the GPS. There is definitely a learning curve.
 
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