VOR-A with a Garmin 430

[Betmerick]

Hi guys!

I'm practicing for my checkride and one of the tasks the local examiner wants is a VOR-A approach into KGPC (Putnam Co, IN). Using the Brickyard VOR (VHP) out of Indianapolis on an outbound radial.... the airport environment is at 23.1 DME.

My question is..... would you dial in the approach on the 430 in VLOC and follow the step downs on the plate or just use the HSI with the VOR dialed in and use the DME count?

It seems like I didn't do a very good job explaining this.

My instructor (PIC guy with 20k hrs) had me not use my 430. I just intercepted the outbound 241 radial just outside the Indy C airspace which was 10 DME from the VOR. I used my plate as my reference and tracked the radial to the airport (23 DME). My question was would there be any advantage to loading it into the 430 and following it that way and will the examiner even care?

 

[ja_user]

You need to monitor the radial, so it’ll need to be vloc or on a standby radio, identified, etc. why wouldn’t you do this and load the approach in the 430?

 

[flyingron]

Huh? I'm not sure what the programming of the HSI has to do with the question about stepdowns. I'd use the passage over the fixes as displayed on the unit. That's going to be readily displayed. The "DME" distance to the VOR isn't.

 

[EdFred]

Well the plate says DME required, sooooooo.....

I'm not sure how you would fly this without using the distances

 

[Betmerick]

When you follow the approach you activated on the 430 it gives you the

Well the plate says DME required, sooooooo.....

I'm not sure how you would fly this without using the distances

My question was do Ifollow the distances as laid out on the 430 screen or use the DME distances and line up your path on the HSI. Two completely different counting procedures. The DME count would be the entry point as per the vectors (generally 10 dme) and fly to 23.1 dme. Using the 430 would count the mileage between fixes. Guess 6 / 1/2

 

[EdFred]

You can substitute the fixes in the 430 database for the distances on the DME. That procedure was written as if GPS doesn't exist. As long as you can identify when you cross each of those DME fixes you are good. The 430 will do that. You dont need to have the VOR set as a waypoint in the 430 and read how far you are from it.

 

[Clip4]

Does the examiner know the plane you are flying has DME? Most planes today do not and most applicants would be using the GPS for distance.

But, you can do it either way unless the examiner specifies which to use. The presentation of the distance is different. If you use the GPS, you are basically flying an LNAV approach with VNAV selected and the VOR identified. The DME will be counting up as you fly farther from the VOR. The GPS will be counting down to the fixes.

A 23 NM VOR/DME truly is a non precision approach and you can easily find the airport a mile left or right of you course at the MAP. Left turns for the circle.

 

[benyflyguy]

This is a nice approach to have to do. The sensitivity is going to diminish as you approach the field as opposed to increasing when the VOr is situated very close to the field. Should be easy to do on the 430. Just remember the VLOC!! And practice what buttonology you need for going missed.

 

[Plano Pilot]

Hi guys!

I'm practicing for my checkride and one of the tasks the local examiner wants is a VOR-A approach into KGPC (Putnam Co, IN). Using the Brickyard VOR (VHP) out of Indianapolis on an outbound radial.... the airport environment is at 23.1 DME.

My question is..... would you dial in the approach on the 430 in VLOC and follow the step downs on the plate or just use the HSI with the VOR dialed in and use the DME count?

It seems like I didn't do a very good job explaining this.

My instructor (PIC guy with 20k hrs) had me not use my 430. I just intercepted the outbound 241 radial just outside the Indy C airspace which was 10 DME from the VOR. I used my plate as my reference and tracked the radial to the airport (23 DME). My question was would there be any advantage to loading it into the 430 and following it that way and will the examiner even care?

I think the examiner wants to see you shoot a VOR approach not a GPS. Yes the GPS will be more precise but maybe the examiner wants to see how you react to being a little off course, using the VOR, at minimums and still land. This is from another old guy/instructor that did a lot of ADF approaches back in the day.

 

[luvflyin]

Hi guys!

I'm practicing for my checkride and one of the tasks the local examiner wants is a VOR-A approach into KGPC (Putnam Co, IN). Using the Brickyard VOR (VHP) out of Indianapolis on an outbound radial.... the airport environment is at 23.1 DME.

My question is..... would you dial in the approach on the 430 in VLOC and follow the step downs on the plate or just use the HSI with the VOR dialed in and use the DME count?

It seems like I didn't do a very good job explaining this.

My instructor (PIC guy with 20k hrs) had me not use my 430. I just intercepted the outbound 241 radial just outside the Indy C airspace which was 10 DME from the VOR. I used my plate as my reference and tracked the radial to the airport (23 DME). My question was would there be any advantage to loading it into the 430 and following it that way and will the examiner even care?

Examiner shouldn't but you may want to ask before you do it. You're going to have to monitor an additional instrument either way you do it. The final approach course if you use the 430. You have an HSI and you'll be looking at that for heading anyway. Distance if you fly it with HSI. So I think the answer is what do you find easier to get your distance from. GPS is an authorized substitute for DME. I'd find the 430 easier than scanning the DME looking for a particular number.

 

[wsuffa]

On the other hand, if the examiner tells you that GPS in inop, then you'll have to use the DME and vice-versa.

 

[luvflyin]

On the other hand, if the examiner tells you that GPS in inop, then you'll have to use the DME and vice-versa.

Yup. And I expect that's likely to happen.

 

[EdFred]

Yup. And I expect that's likely to happen.

...and if the GPS is the DME??

 

[EdFred]

I think the examiner wants to see you shoot a VOR approach not a GPS. Yes the GPS will be more precise but maybe the examiner wants to see how you react to being a little off course, using the VOR, at minimums and still land. This is from another old guy/instructor that did a lot of ADF approaches back in the day.

You do fly the approach as a VOR approach. HSI is displaying the radial. GPS is only there to sub for the DME requirement. No one said fly it as a GPS approach.

 

[denverpilot]

On the other hand, if the examiner tells you that GPS in inop, then you'll have to use the DME and vice-versa.

Yup. And I expect that's likely to happen.

It’s a trap!

(But you can see it coming... like a freight train.)

 

[luvflyin]

...and if the GPS is the DME??

Before or after commencing the Approach?

 

[EdFred]

Before or after commencing the Approach?

Would it matter? You have no way of knowing where you are once the GPS(DME) fails.

 

[wsuffa]

...and if the GPS is the DME??

That's part of the test. Or it was when I did my IFR (and I had both DME and a Garmin 430).

 

[luvflyin]

Would it matter? You have no way of knowing where you are once the GPS(DME) fails.

Yeah. If before, then you simply don’t use it to begin with which means you don’t start the Approach. But if after, then you have to do something. The Missed Approach requires DME and we were talking about not having a DME and using GPS as the source. So you are in Never Never Land if he fails the GPS. Ya gotta get creative and come up with something.

 

[flyingron]

If you lose a navigational component (and you have no backup), it's a mandated report to ATC and unless you have a alternate naviagational plan, it's an emergency. Of course, before making in an emergency, I'd ask for a vector.

 

[denverpilot]

If you lose a navigational component (and you have no backup), it's a mandated report to ATC and unless you have a alternate naviagational plan, it's an emergency. Of course, before making in an emergency, I'd ask for a vector.

And take a nervous gander at the MSA circle on the plate. LOL.

 

[midlifeflyer]

There are a couple of things at work here, some more obvious than others.

• Yes, you absolutely can use the GPS in pace of DME.
• The DPE might want you to demonstrate flying the VOR approach "old school" - failed GPS - and your instructor is preparing you for that. Really - talk to the instructor about it. He may know the proclivities of the DPE he is going to send you to.
• It could be a sneaky trap. Although the current guidance specifically permits using the GPS as primary so long as the VOR is also being displayed (which is how I would fly it in real life), AFAIK, the 430 AFM Supplement has not been updated to reflect that and still says flying a non-GPS approach - any approach without GPS in the title - "is not authorized with GPS navigation guidance."

Yes, there is a very good argument that parsed correctly, the old AFM Supp language is broad enough to permit what the new guidance says. But do you want to get into that discussion during a checkride with a DPE who feels otherwise?

 

[EdFred]

Yeah. If before, then you simply don’t use it to begin with which means you don’t start the Approach. But if after, then you have to do something. The Missed Approach requires DME and we were talking about not having a DME and using GPS as the source. So you are in Never Never Land if he fails the GPS. Ya gotta get creative and come up with something.

But either way you still aren't terminating the approach with a landing. And, it's Indiana. If on the approach, there's nothing "creative" to do. Stay on the radial, climb to MSA/OROCA, call ATC, and do something that doesn't require GPS/DME. So there's no difference if failed before or after, you're flying a different approach if you want to get on the ground.

 

[EdFred]

There are a couple of things at work here, some more obvious than others.

• Yes, you absolutely can use the GPS in pace of DME.
• The DPE might want you to demonstrate flying the VOR approach "old school" - failed GPS - and your instructor is preparing you for that. Really - talk to the instructor about it. He may know the proclivities of the DPE he is going to send you to.
• It could be a sneaky trap. Although the current guidance specifically permits using the GPS as primary so long as the VOR is also being displayed (which is how I would fly it in real life), AFAIK, the 430 AFM Supplement has not been updated to reflect that and still says flying a non-GPS approach - any approach without GPS in the title - "is not authorized with GPS navigation guidance."

Yes, there is a very good argument that parsed correctly, the old AFM Supp language is broad enough to permit what the new guidance says. But do you want to get into that discussion during a checkride with a DPE who feels otherwise?

I don't use the GPS as primary if it's a non GPS approach. It's classified as non-GPS I'm flying it as non-GPS. Is the moving map displayed? Sure is. Is the CDI tuned to a radio station? Youbetcha.

 

[luvflyin]

But either way you still aren't terminating the approach with a landing. And, it's Indiana. If on the approach, there's nothing "creative" to do. Climb to MSA/OROCA, call ATC, and do something tat doesn't require GPS/DME.

Yeah. Ya just climb straight ahead to the Missed Approach altitude, call Approach/Center and sort it out. Creativity only comes in if you can’t raise ATC.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I don't use the GPS as primary if it's a non GPS approach. It's classified as non-GPS I'm flying it as non-GPS. Is the moving map displayed? Sure is. Is the CDI tuned to a radio station? Youbetcha.

I choose to follow the official guidance. Much simpler to not switch the primary CDI than to switch it twice. Different strokes.

 

[EdFred]

I choose to follow the official guidance. Much simpler to not switch the primary CDI than to switch it twice. Different strokes.

Why would I be switching twice? Select approach, activate, CDI button. Wheres the second switch?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Why would I be switching twice? Select approach, activate, CDI button. Wheres the second switch?

Missed approach.

Of course, if you choose to not use the GPS for the missed, it's only once. And if you choose not to use the GPS at all, there's no switching at all.

I just like the tools which make things easier for me.

 

[EdFred]

On this particular approach I dont see why switching the CDI to GPS for missed is required.

 

[midlifeflyer]

On this particular approach I don't see why switching the CDI to GPS for missed is required.

Obviously it is not "required." People flew approaches like this from beginning to end for decades with just a VOR and a DME. Like I said, if you want to, you do, if you don't want to, you don't.

Me, I'm flying everything else GPS and, absent a failure (or failure mode proficiency task) see no reason to switch the HSI (or NAV1 CDI) to something else when I am, ummmm, not "required" to.

 

[EdFred]

Obviously it is not "required." People flew approaches like this from beginning to end for decades with just a VOR and a DME. Like I said, if you want to, you do, if you don't want to, you don't.

Me, I'm flying everything else GPS and, absent a failure (or failure mode proficiency task) see no reason to switch the HSI (or NAV1 CDI) to something else when I am, ummmm, not "required" to.

So you're saying you would only fly this approach on NAV2/CDI2 ?

What if you are flying dual 430 or 430/530 set up?

 

[midlifeflyer]

So you're saying you would only fly this approach on NAV2/CDI2 ?

I don't think I said anything even close. I would fly the approach in Nav1 (GPS) and monitor the raw data on Nav 2 (VOR), exactly as the guidance contemplates.

 

[EdFred]

I don't think I said anything even close. I would fly the approach in Nav1 (GPS) and monitor the raw data on Nav 2 (VOR), exactly as the guidance contemplates.

It sounds like you are saying you will never hit the CDI button, so with dual 430s how do you manage to fly that with never hitting a CDI button?

Whenever I load an approach on the 430 that isn't GPS, it says for monitoring only, so how is it flown via GPS? Sounds more like it's being monitored on the GPS and being flown on the NAV.

 

[azure]

I don't know if this has changed since the new guidance was issued, but the GPS approach course and the actual radial on the VOR approach that I flew on my IR checkride (01/13) differed by something like a couple of degrees. The DPE made sure I was flying the NAV CDI and not the GPS.

This was the VOR 27 at KFNT, FWIW.

 

[cowman]

So here's how I was taught to fly this type of approach and I did use a 430, now a 530 in my new plane...

You can use the GPS in GPS mode to navigate to your initial fix but once you make it to the fix you should hit the CDI key to put your indicator into VLOC and actually fly the VOR radial not the GPS since it is a VOR approach not a GPS approach. The GPS can be used as a DME however to identify your fixes.

The way I would fly this approach in my airplane is I'd go ahead and load up the approach in my 530 and leave it in GPS mode but I'd also dial in the VOR on my NAV2 radio and follow the radial on that indicator while leaving the GPS on for situational awareness/reference/cross checking. CFIs and examiners have never taken issue with that.

A little side-note/reminder that could be a gotcha when switching from GPS to VOR: In GPS mode on the 430 your course deviation indicator will always be showing whatever course you have selected on the GPS regardless of where the OBS knob(radial selected) is, you'll get a MSG alert whining at you to set the OBS but it will display correctly regardless. However, when you're in VLOC and tracking a VOR that's no longer the case, you have to make sure your radial is selected. I think most CFIs teach you to always dial in your radial/course even in GPS mode anway but it's something that could be easily overlooked if you're used to following your GPS in enroute mode.

 

[midlifeflyer]

It sounds like you are saying you will never hit the CDI button, so with dual 430s how do you manage to fly that with never hitting a CDI button?

Whenever I load an approach on the 430 that isn't GPS, it says for monitoring only, so how is it flown via GPS? Sounds more like it's being monitored on the GPS and being flown on the NAV.

You can read the AIM guidance for yourself.

 

[luvflyin]

I don't know if this has changed since the new guidance was issued, but the GPS approach course and the actual radial on the VOR approach that I flew on my IR checkride (01/13) differed by something like a couple of degrees. The DPE made sure I was flying the NAV CDI and not the GPS.

This was the VOR 27 at KFNT, FWIW.

That was nice of him to make sure you did rather than just let you not, and then fail you.

 

[azure]

That was nice of him to make sure you did rather than just let you not, and then fail you.

Well he asked me which course I was following and I told him. I'm really not sure whether he would have failed me if I'd forgotten to hit the CDI button, but I assume he would have. So maybe "made sure" wasn't quite the best choice of words.

 

[luvflyin]

Well he asked me which course I was following and I told him. I'm really not sure whether he would have failed me if I'd forgotten to hit the CDI button, but I assume he would have. So maybe "made sure" wasn't quite the best choice of words.

Ah. Gotcha. That take on "made sure" makes more sense than how I read it the first time.

 

[EdFred]

You can read the AIM guidance for yourself.

Reading the AIM won't answer the question I asked.

How do YOU manage never hitting a CDI button with dual 430 set up?