Video of C-152 Stall/Spin @ Quebec City (CYQB)

douglas393 said:
As many have mentioned flaps are too much(according to what I see in the POH flaps 0 to 10 and this plane seemed to have a lot more than that.

Cannot comment on use of ailerons, or elevator as cannot tell from my reviews of the video(both you-tube, and twitter) but from the video his attitude seems really steep to me. Do not know whether this is a regular take off, go around or a touch and go(or stop). The last data on flight aware on this plane is from two days prior which would suggest to me it was a regular takeoff. I find it hard to believe the pilot forgot to remove the yoke gust lock, though I guess it is possible, given that there would be absolutely no movement in the yoke with it in. I personally would find that hard to ignore even if I had a major brain fart and forgot to do my preflight. I was taught the best way to avoid a spin is to avoid a stall, and again to my observation of the attitude. The video shows the plane just after it leaves the ground and it is in what appears to me a high attitude almost immediately. It passes right though ground effect in a high attitude and slow speed. Whenever I take off I always level my plane in ground effect until I reach my Vy or Vx speed depending on my intentions and then start my ascent slowly always maintaining at the very least Vy or Vx. Once this plane started to stall, the nose needed to be pushed down, from what I see this did not happen and the nose only came down when lift was gone, the plane was uncoordinated and the rest is history. From the time the plane started to stalled until the spin occurred was maybe 3 seconds. The only hope to have avoided this outcome would have to pushed the nose down the second the stall warning sounded which I would think started almost immediately after the plane left the ground.
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Yes it's too steep, that's why it stalled. Someone else mentioned it might have been a go-around which would explain the flap position. Depending on when the go-around started the airplane may have already been in the region of reverse command, with the airplane climbing poorly the pilot probably raised the nose more in a vain attempt to steepen the climb.
 
dmspilot said:
Yes it's too steep, that's why it stalled. Someone else mentioned it might have been a go-around which would explain the flap position. Depending on when the go-around started the airplane may have already been in the region of reverse command, with the airplane climbing poorly the pilot probably raised the nose more in a vain attempt to steepen the climb.
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I looked at flight aware and the last flight for this plane was two days prior. I seems to me this would suggest that it was a regular take-off. The 152 has a 30 degree flap setting for the preflight, and another possibility would be that the flaps were at 30 degrees for the preflight and never retracted for the take-off. I think you are right concerning the pilot raising the nose, but I would also think that at that point the stall warning was "screaming" and I know I am conditioned to push the yoke in whenever I hear the stall warning to the point I have to actively think about not doing it when I am doing flight reviews.
 
Been there, done that, but with better training in the Cessna family of light planes.

douglas 393 posted after I read the previous, and I fully agree with his theory. Flaps are deployed before the walk around, and retracted after the pilot is in the seat. Retracting may well have been missed. Flight aware may have missed a trip around the pattern prior to this take off.

150/152 and 172's, configured for landing with flaps 20 or more, will pitch up rapidly when full power is applied for a go around. It takes a strong pilot to overcome those forces on the yoke.

This may have been a young pilot, a small pilot, or an old geezer like me, with modest arm strength to overcome those forces.

My training called for pushing hard on the yoke while simultaneously spinning the trim wheel nose down with the other hand.
Alternately, it there were no obstacles ahead, reduce power to about half throttle. This reduced thrust below the drag from the flaps.

As soon as the plane was in a stable flight condition, bring the flaps up slowly.

The first 150 that I trained in had the Johnson Bar flaps, and if the setting was more than 20, they were reduced immediately to 20, then as control became normal, the rest of the flaps returned to 0 as fast as safe airspeed allowed.

With electric flaps, they are slow, and require an extra hand, so either trim wheel or throttle are important first responses.

The accident plane had plenty of runway ahead, so reducing power was a safe option.


This may not have been a go around, but just a flaps landing, taxi back, and take off with the flaps still down, and normal takeoff trim. Rotation would have been immediate, and steep, with a pilot who had never had a plane do such before, and mentally unprepared for a logical interpretation of the cause.

Do you visually check your flaps before EVERY takeoff? I think that I do, and it was one of my normal checks, in all brands of aircraft. If I missed that check, it was after a no flaps landing, which would simply make me a lucky pilot.

I have a lot of sympathy for this pilot, I have seen 2 Cessna's crash in a similar manner during a go around with flaps greater than 10 degrees. Both survived, as these crashes take place at very low altitude and speed. I was young then, and did run to the crash, to assist the pilots out. Both were early solo flights, one with the instructor there watching. He was the first to the plane.

I have no opinion for the camera person's non reaction to the crash, but their video did document the event well, and we should all applaud them for that. It is important that each of us do our thing well. The tower and line crew are there to take care of on airport events.

As an early fan of seat belts in cars, self installed before they were available from the factory, and retrofitted shoulder strap as soon as they were STCed for our planes, yes, that is why we do not have a serious injury or fatality here. :)
 
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Left Rudder into the stall. Flaps are normal short field. Simple departure stall from a mushy climb. CFI should have done more stalls and slow flight. That’s it.1691343861175.png
 
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skyking3286 said:
Left Rudder into the stall.
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Why would a pilot apply left rudder during a climb? More likely optical illusion due to shadows, camera angle, and pixel interpolation.
 
Once the stall occurred, regarding the left rudder maybe pilot figured “I’m not climbing fo sho, now turning hard left on its own, so turn left back for the runway since the plane is dipping the left wing anyway” or “oh crap, left turn, gotta stay coordinated”. Thinking what would the pilot’s instantaneous no-time-to-think muscle memory look like on the controls.
 
Ralph Parmenter Bennett said:
"The camera person might have been a 75-year-old female incapable of doing anything except taking pictures.", you just previously wrote Billy Zeldman.

Ouch, watch that ageism and sexism Billy , signed Ralph age 81 years, CFII Gold Seal, MEI, AGI, IGI, FAA Master Pilot Award. Take care of yourself and my hope that you can one day join our aged pilot ranks.
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thats-a-burn-5c68e6.jpg
 
Daleandee said:
Amazing that the camera man didn't throw down the camera and go to help the guy that just crashed his plane ...
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While I would have reacted to assist the pilot, judging from the elapsed time between the aircraft's impact and the sound of it hitting the ground, the person filming the crash was more than a quarter mile away from being of any assistance. The chances of a post-crash fire erupting increased as each second passed, and that would certainly be on my mind as I ran toward the plane.

PaulS said:
It’s an unnatural feeling to push that stick forward in that situation. Glad the pilot is ok.
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Unnatural? Not for me. My mind would have been screaming "Push! Push more!" well before the wing began to drop.
 
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dmspilot said:
If this supposed to be a joke?
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Why? Proper technique is to use "top rudder". On the little Cessnas, you can keep the ailerons neutral, pull waaaaay back on the yoke, and keep that thing upright deep into the stall.
 
Ralph Parmenter Bennett said:
"The camera person might have been a 75-year-old female incapable of doing anything except taking pictures.", you just previously wrote Billy Zeldman.

Ouch, watch that ageism and sexism Billy , signed Ralph age 81 years, CFII Gold Seal, MEI, AGI, IGI, FAA Master Pilot Award. Take care of yourself and my hope that you can one day join our aged pilot ranks.
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Your post about the imaginary person Zeldman presented (which included your flying accomplishments, and while having nothing to do with the subject, you felt compelled to boast about) dismisses his comments as an intentional slight towards an imaginary strawman while injecting social justice nonsense into the discussion.

His innocuous description of the person filming could easily be accurate, and in no way does it involve sexism and ageism. Your pomposity illustrates everything that's wrong about those that feel it's their duty to pollute normal conversations with judgemental BS.
 
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If the elevator system is properly rigged, the control lock will have the elevator down a few degrees. That tends to inhibit takeoff, and a tailwind while tied down will push the tail down rather than let the wind lift the tail and put the airplane over onto its back.

If it was a go-around, the lock wasn't in. When the flaps are down, the downwash onto the stab raises the nose a whole bunch. One has to push hard. The seats on the 150/152 aren't all that robust, and there are places where they crack and the seat back could fail under pilot pressure pushing on that wheel.

If the seat rail AD wasn't done regularly and properly, the seat may have popped right off the rails.

There are a couple of Canadian ADs addressing the potential for the 150 and 152 rudders to lock hard over. The rudder stops, as originally designed, could latch up if the rudder hinges were worn. I'm sure the investigators will look at this one to see if it was in compliance.

https://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/cawis-swimn/AD_dl.aspx?ad=2009-10-09&cn=US&ft=pdf
https://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/cawis-swimn/AD_dl.aspx?ad=CF-2000-20&cn=CF&ft=pdf&l=E

I came across one 150 that had had a few too many tailstrikes, and the balance weight horn at the top of the rudder was bent downward and about to snag on the top of the fin. The 152 has a larger balance area that would resist bending so easily, but maybe.....
 
Jim Carpenter said:
How is the elevator positioned with the 152 control lock installed? (Been too many years for me, I can't recall).
Or, could have been a "jury-rigged" gust lock, such as a nail through the yoke shaft hole, but that would still leave the controls in the "standard" lock position.
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The 150s I learned in had a strange contraption that hooked on the back of the yoke and extended all the way to the rudder pedals to lock the flight controls. No way you’re going to forget that because you can’t get in the airplane.
 
3393RP said:
While I would reacted to assist the pilot, judging from the elapsed time between the aircraft's impact and the sound of it hitting the ground, the person filming the crash was more than a quarter mile away from being of any assistance. The chances of a post-crash fire erupting increased as each second passed, and that would certainly be on my mind as I ran toward the plane.


Unnatural? Not for me. My mind would have been screaming "Push! Push more!" well before the wing began to drop.
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It also looks like the camera man is staring across a commercial gate marking on the pavement. Something that tells you what type of airplane and where to stop the nose wheel. He is likely in a secure area and can’t do anything to help.
 
3393RP said:
While I would reacted to assist the pilot, judging from the elapsed time between the aircraft's impact and the sound of it hitting the ground, the person filming the crash was more than a quarter mile away from being of any assistance. The chances of a post-crash fire erupting increased as each second passed, and that would certainly be on my mind as I ran toward the plane.


Unnatural? Not for me. My mind would have been screaming "Push! Push more!" well before the wing began to drop.
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Yeh, it's not unnatural to me either. But the first time I over rotated an airplane it felt unnatural to push the nose down to correct it, a good instructor fixed that notion immediately. There have been a few accidents documented where the pilot maintained full aft elevator right to the scene of the crash.
 
The final stages of this accident looks a lot like this one from just a year and half ago:

 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Perhaps his seat slid back and he/she was not able to control the plane.
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Wouldn't be the first time. Natural reaction is to pull yourself forward with the yoke, too.

If the pilot did survive, I suppose we'll hear their account... in 2 years when we've all forgotten about it.
 
Ralph Parmenter Bennett said:
"The camera person might have been a 75-year-old female incapable of doing anything except taking pictures.", you just previously wrote Billy Zeldman.

Ouch, watch that ageism and sexism Billy , signed Ralph age 81 years, CFII Gold Seal, MEI, AGI, IGI, FAA Master Pilot Award. Take care of yourself and my hope that you can one day join our aged pilot ranks.
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Does that mean you can run 1/4 - 1/2 mile and rescue someone?

I am younger than that, and could not do so.
 
Pinecone said:
Does that mean you can run 1/4 - 1/2 mile and rescue someone?
I am younger than that, and could not do so.
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Been there, done that. When it happens, your adrenalin will kick in and you won't think about the exertion or get tired until the incident is over.
 
Ralph Parmenter Bennett said:
Ouch, watch that ageism and sexism Billy , signed Ralph age 81 years, CFII Gold Seal, MEI, AGI, IGI, FAA Master Pilot Award. Take care of yourself and my hope that you can one day join our aged pilot ranks.
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Thanks, but if all the pilots in the aged ranks have such egos, I'll pass.

Signed, Billy, aged 64.

I can still pretty much do everything I could do in my 20s, just not as fast or as often...
 
"For all we know the rudder position may be entirely passive"

IMHO, unlikely - and you can see that left rudder faintly before this, as the light shines through the rudder balance tab and the vertical stab. More likely the student (if indeed he was licensed, which a post tended to doubt) had a panic moment and hit the wrong foot.
If it was relative wind, the airflow over the rudder along the axis was as strong or stronger than the sideways airflow in this maneuver. Watch the whole video and the departure from controlled flight.
 
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skyking3286 said:
as the light shines through the rudder balance tab and the vertical stab.
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Ah, so you're a forensic video analyst?

skyking3286 said:
More likely the student (if indeed he was licensed, which a post tended to doubt) had a panic moment and hit the wrong foot to the floor.
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Left rudder to the floor, combined with torque will cause a much faster rotation rate than is seen.

skyking3286 said:
If it was relative wind, the airflow over the rudder along the axis was as strong or stronger than the sideways airflow in this maneuver. Watch the whole video and the departure from controlled flight wasn't simply a torque pull (100 hp!) or a dropped wing at stall.
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Really, how many horsepower is required to generate enough torque to cause a left spin? What a fantastically ignorant statement. Let me guess, you aren't a CFI and haven't watched your students enter left incipient spins during stall practice before? How many Cessna 150s and 152s have you spun?
 
Has nobody caught on to the fact that at the beginning of the video the airplane’s nose was at minimum 60-70° off-axis (rightward or clockwise) to the runway? The vantage point of the camera, from gate 34 to the crash site is nearly perpendicular to runway 6-24.

The Google Maps default view is about 7 years out of date - the terminal was expanded to the northeast in 2016-2017.

Despite the old imagery, here is an overhead diagram. The red line is the final view angle from the camera to the crash site (which doesn’t change much during the event sequence). The magenta line is the apparent path of the aircraft (from right to left), though the final lateral distance from the runway is unknown.
 

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Zeldman said:
Signed, Billy, aged 64.

I can still pretty much do everything I could do in my 20s, just not as fast or as often...
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The hubris of youth. :D

I said the same thing at that age. But now, no way I can do that.
 
dbahn said:
...and maybe even thinking it was the brake pedal.
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That was my first thought. The pilot was possibly just pushing on the pedal out of a reaction to the approaching impact. I have seen plenty of examples of new pilots pressing on the right pedal when they intended to apply the brakes, due to habit transfer from driving cars.
 
IK04 said:
That was my first thought. The pilot was possibly just pushing on the pedal out of a reaction to the approaching impact. I have seen plenty of examples of new pilots pressing on the right pedal when they intended to apply the brakes, due to habit transfer from driving cars.
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Never underestimate the Lizard Brain.
 
I heard that local media reported that this was a go around. No link.

This is the normal strong nose up from full power with the flaps at more than 20 degrees'

Naturally, forward pressure on the yoke, very hard, immediately.
Electric flaps are too slow to respond. Save them to later.
Trim wheel about 4 quick zips if you are fast to get a hand there, works.
Reduce throttle, counter intuitive, but works immediately if you kept your hand on it. The old rule of undo what you just did if something bad happens.
He had plenty of runway ahead, so reduced power and no climb is not an instantaneous issue, gives time to get trim improved.

As Dan Thomas pointed out, full throttle puts a huge downwash on the horizontal stabilizer, producing a strong nose up force.
The engine thrust is well below the large drag of the flaps, so the vector balance of thrust/drag produces a strong rotation force, nose up.
If the pilot is not expecting this to happen, the short time available to respond can be used up with no effective action.
 
geezer said:
I heard that local media reported that this was a go around
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I wonder where the apparent loss of directional control to the right came into play. Cause or effect. And was the left rudder in response to that?
 
geezer said:
I heard that local media reported that this was a go around. No link.

This is the normal strong nose up from full power with the flaps at more than 20 degrees'

Naturally, forward pressure on the yoke, very hard, immediately.
Electric flaps are too slow to respond. Save them to later.
Trim wheel about 4 quick zips if you are fast to get a hand there, works.
Reduce throttle, counter intuitive, but works immediately if you kept your hand on it. The old rule of undo what you just did if something bad happens.
He had plenty of runway ahead, so reduced power and no climb is not an instantaneous issue, gives time to get trim improved.

As Dan Thomas pointed out, full throttle puts a huge downwash on the horizontal stabilizer, producing a strong nose up force.
The engine thrust is well below the large drag of the flaps, so the vector balance of thrust/drag produces a strong rotation force, nose up.
If the pilot is not expecting this to happen, the short time available to respond can be used up with no effective action.
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Yep, and if the pilot (and I have been know to do this!) has already cranked in trim for a landing flare, and is already counterbalancing that with push, it can be a real handful. I've done it plenty of times, including a few times unplanned, and it takes a lot of push on the yoke.
Still, this was a bit crazy; perhaps the pilot was physically weak. Or poorly trained.
 
Not sure about the cause, all I know is that the crash looks like a fatal to me. Can’t see how the pilot survived that one. I’ve seen accidents that were way less violent than this one that resulted in fatalities. He should buy a lottery ticket with that kind of luck.
 
Brad Smith said:
Not sure about the cause, all I know is that the crash looks like a fatal to me. Can’t see how the pilot survived that one. I’ve seen accidents that were way less violent than this one that resulted in fatalities. He should buy a lottery ticket with that kind of luck.
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or on his knees thanking God he wasn't killed ...
 
Turbo-Arrow-Driver said:
You know what? Never mind. I try to do something helpful and be respectful to others. All I get are snarky replies. Happens way too often on this web site. I've got better things to do.
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Block 'em. Most of the snark is from a handful of people where that is just their default tone. I found once I blocked about 5 users, the website got way better. Also noticed that very often when there was a comment like yours, it was in response to someone I had blocked months ago. Funny, that.
 
3393RP said:
the person filming the crash was more than a quarter mile away from being of any assistance.
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That's a 2 minute run by a reasonably fit athlete, or 3-4 minutes by your average donut eating citizen.
 
Ed Haywood said:
That's a 2 minute run by a reasonably fit athlete, or 3-4 minutes by your average donut eating citizen.
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Neither the control tower nor the airport authority want random people running through secure areas, movement areas, or runways. The entire thought process behind this is "he should have run to help" is stupid.
 
dmspilot said:
Neither the control tower nor the airport authority want random people running through secure areas, movement areas, or runways. The entire thought process behind this is "he should have run to help" is stupid.
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I have no idea how many folks have been in a horrible crash but by personal experience I can assure you that if you are still conscience, a light touch and a voice reminding you to stay calm and that help is on the way is extremely comforting. We just disagree ...
 
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