VFR over the top

Techsan02

Techsan02

Filing Flight Plan
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Fort Worth
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WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot
I've seen a few posts related to this but haven't seen a definitive answer, of course I guess it varies from pilot to pilot. I will attach a couple pictures of the kind of cloud layer I am talking about, and is it a good idea to go over the top. Also, is there anyway to tell when you may come into a solid layer before it's too late. I had someone tell me on my way back from my trip to fly over the clouds so I don't get beat up like I did on the way down. I didn't know if that was such a good idea. So, let the debate rage on...Forgive me if this topic has been beaten to death.
 

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There is no one-size-fits-all answer to this. It depends on your experience with weather patterns along the route, how much you trust the destination forecast, and what your "Plan B" is. Like most things in aviation, if you don't think it is a good idea (for you), then you shouldn't do it. If you have the time and gas to kill to check it out and you have an alternate that is no more than a little scattered, you can try it out for a learning experience. You need to be aware that if there is an emergency, you're going to need to be comfortable descending through that layer.
 
Those pics you posted aren't all that big of a deal. I went through this. But like Jeff posted, I was very precise and confident in doing it. Twenty minutes later this opened up for me to drop in to my destination and I had plenty of time/reserve left. I was flying north, clouds were moving east.
 

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You may have high pressure that dominates your route of flight but as you approach your dest. a low or a trough might be in play. Even if there is no precip and the visibility is good, this could indicate that the ceilings will start to close in as you get closer to the different air masses. Like Jeff mentioned, there are many variables to this question. What I mentioned is just one of several examples. Check metars along your route. By the photos you have, I wouldn't even consider that "VFR over the top"
 
Ryanb said:
You may have high pressure that dominates your route of flight but as you approach your dest. a low or a trough might be in play. Even if there is no precip and the visibility is good, this could indicate that the ceilings will start to close in as you get closer to the different air masses. Like Jeff mentioned, there are many variables to this question. What I mentioned is just one of several examples. Check metars along your route. By the photos you have, I wouldn't even consider that "VFR over the top"
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That's what im thinking about the clouds. That's just a normal day. Dodge those and get above them for smooth air
 
I'd go over them, sure.

But I also do this all the time


What you posted I wouldn't even consider over the top, but for a more solid lower layer, it's just a matter of If you can punch through safely if needed.
 

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I will go over the tops,but I have an IFR cert. ,I monitor the weather on foreflight at the destination,and if it goes down I file for an approach.
 
It was more dense than the pictures show in some areas. Just trying to get an idea even with light clouds like this. I wouldn't be worried about flying over this, but it's more about what could be ahead. The input is good though...
 
Definitely want to know that you can get back down in the other end. You really have to play it by ear and go up there, keep your eyes open and get back down before you get closed out.
 
Techsan02 said:
I've seen a few posts related to this but haven't seen a definitive answer, of course I guess it varies from pilot to pilot. I will attach a couple pictures of the kind of cloud layer I am talking about, and is it a good idea to go over the top. Also, is there anyway to tell when you may come into a solid layer before it's too late. I had someone tell me on my way back from my trip to fly over the clouds so I don't get beat up like I did on the way down. I didn't know if that was such a good idea. So, let the debate rage on...Forgive me if this topic has been beaten to death.
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Carry enough fuel so that you can turn around (or divert) to a known area of VFR. I have heard far too many pilots who came over the Cascades from Eastern Washington begging Seattle Approach to help them find a hole in the unexpected (!) overcast while they burned their divert fuel.

Bob Gardner
 
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Like this stuff?




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Take an instructor or instrument rated friend along sometime and go on top (VFR, if possible). Talk to them about your concerns and listen to how they discuss it. Experience it and decide whether that helps you in your thinking/planning or if you'll still avoid it. No right or wrong answer for everyone, it's something personal. (Also, consider getting your instrument rating and questions like this become quite a bit easier to answer since, in many cases, you'll WANT to climb/descend THROUGH the layer.
 
I do it all the time. Last week the entire width of Minnesota was OVC with it breaking up at Fargo, didn't think twice about it. Then again I have 6 hours/900nm of fuel in the plane, approach plates for the whole US, and am IFR current. Did the same thing coming back and got a clearance when VMC wasn't going to be able to be maintained
 
My plane's performance and oxygen help a bunch. I am vfr and fly over the top on most trips. I learned the basics of wx for my certificate and much more later before ever going over. It is very educational to get up there and compare what was forecast to what you actually see. Have an out or two with plenty of fuel, hood training, an autopilot, on-board wx, and at least 1,500' ceilings over flat terrain, more over mountainous areas. Synthetic vision is a plus over the hills too. I left Daytona Beach area, early two weeks ago for my return trip home, 600 nm north. Flight following all the way. It was 39F, unlimited vis, nothing but airline traffic, at 13,500. It was 85F, 5-10 mi vis at 3,500. I initially chose 11,500 as that was my guess looking up from 3,500. Once up there, I wanted to be above that haze line and into that cool dry air. METAR's may say SCT when it is really BKN at your destnation. I always prefer CLR in the destination forecast. I do not fly over the top if there are TS forecast or late in the day. No way would you want to be looking for your alternate with the Sun setting. Don't be afraid to make that 180 and tell ATC what you are doing. There is nothing more beautiful and smooth as when you are up above the clouds, but be careful.
 
I am a VFR pilot, about 200 hours (still in the danger zone), and do occasionally go over the top of some pretty substantial clouds when crossing the Cascades. The things I consider and try to get a handle on before I even attempt it are,
1) How confident am I in the conditions on the other side? I am much more likely to call Flight Service for a live briefing when considering over the top flight. I know they are going to say "VFR not recommended", but I can talk through my options and get info about all of them.
2) How high am I going to have to go? I have no O2, so that will always be a limiting factor. For towering cumulous the tops and the troughs can be thousands of feet apart, and I will always leave myself with the reasonable expectation that I will simply have to turn back. If you have to get close to the clouds to get through, request special VFR from ATC. But don't fly yourself into the equivalent of a cloud box canyon.
3) What are my outs if I lose power? This is really about understanding what is below. GPS is a huge asset for this! Pay attention to the location of roads, not just airports. I will ALWAYS stay near a major highway when over the top in mountains with the plan to descend directly over it if something bad happens.
4) Is the weather behind me deteriorating? If so, don't go unless you are really confident that you won't have to turn back. For me, when going over the mountains, I won't allow myself to be chased by weather. Maybe in a couple hundred more hours I'll have a different opinion on that, but for now that is a hard rule.
 
flytime said:
2) How high am I going to have to go? I have no O2, so that will always be a limiting factor. For towering cumulous the tops and the troughs can be thousands of feet apart, and I will always leave myself with the reasonable expectation that I will simply have to turn back. If you have to get close to the clouds to get through, request special VFR from ATC. But don't fly yourself into the equivalent of a cloud box canyon.
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Unless you're in controlled airspace to the surface, they can't give you a Special clearance, unfortunately.
 
The pictures you posted OP are of beautiful VFR days. There is probably some good advice in this thread for times when weather is actually a factor, but the fact that those two pictures are your examples of this scenario tells me that we collectively need to be doing a better job not only teaching weather to folks, but giving them practical experience in it. No offense at all to you, and in your defense, a day like that (in the AM) can gradually turn into armageddon by the afternoon in your neck of the woods. But if I were seeing that prior to launching on an hour or two local flight, there is almost no chance anywhere that it would degrade enough to require an IFR letdown.
 
azure said:
Unless you're in controlled airspace to the surface, they can't give you a Special clearance, unfortunately.
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I had always considered SVFR as an option for when the cloud tops got too close to my operational ceiling, though I've never actually had to request it under those circumstances. Thanks for the correction!
 
I have a simple rule for VFR over the top...before I climb over the cloud deck, I tune ahead to the farthest ATIS I can hear on my radio...if that ATIS is not reporting clear conditions, I don't climb over the clouds, but instead stay under them. If you do this just remember that the deck needs to be somewhat low to begin with, because ATIS will report clear sometimes when it is only clear-below 12,000 or 10,000 feet.

Here is a pic when I was over the top on the way to Cincinnati from Detroit a couple of months ago (admittedly not too thick a cloud layer):

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I wish I would have taken some pictures on my trip from KSUS to KLNK on Sunday. There was a beautiful cloud layer between 5k-7kish and it had lots of puffy cumulus clouds in it. We flew over at 8500.

A great tool I found for figuring out where clouds start and stop in addition to looking at METARS and TAFS is foreflight. If you switch it to satellite view with ceilings you get a great picture of where the clouds are, how high the bases are and where they stop. When you put it in motion you get a feel for where things are going as well.

I just took this picture now from foreflight to give you an idea of what it looks like. The system over IA/MO right now is too big to fly over the top, but the view still looks similar when it is suitable. I mainly use this view to make sure I can get under the clouds and identify where they are at. Then if I'm flying and there's an obvious window to get up and over I know where they stop so it's easier to determine if it's safe or not.

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tuwood said:
I wish I would have taken some pictures on my trip from KSUS to KLNK on Sunday. There was a beautiful cloud layer between 5k-7kish and it had lots of puffy cumulus clouds in it. We flew over at 8500.

A great tool I found for figuring out where clouds start and stop in addition to looking at METARS and TAFS is foreflight. If you switch it to satellite view with ceilings you get a great picture of where the clouds are, how high the bases are and where they stop. When you put it in motion you get a feel for where things are going as well.

I just took this picture now from foreflight to give you an idea of what it looks like. The system over IA/MO right now is too big to fly over the top, but the view still looks similar when it is suitable. I mainly use this view to make sure I can get under the clouds and identify where they are at. Then if I'm flying and there's an obvious window to get up and over I know where they stop so it's easier to determine if it's safe or not.

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I like that, and I've done that too. I wish there was something good for cloud tops other than the (infrequent) PIREP.

I like your sign-on name too tuwood...
 
My out is being rated, equipped, and current for Instrument Flight.
 
tawood said:
I like your sign-on name too tuwood...
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lol, I noticed yours as well. My name is Tony Underwood so it's just an abbreviated TUwood that I've used since my Navy days back in the 90's.
 
flyingron said:
My out is being rated, equipped, and current for Instrument Flight.
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I skipped to the end to post this.

Instrument rating - get it. Then you don't have to worry about these kinds of things.

That said, the two pictures originally posted, there are a ton of huge holes there. No issue at all. If it closes up, it is pretty easy to tell before you get to it. Have an alternative available and be ready to turn around if necessary.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I skipped to the end to post this.

Instrument rating - get it. Then you don't have to worry about these kinds of things.

That said, the two pictures originally posted, there are a ton of huge holes there. No issue at all. If it closes up, it is pretty easy to tell before you get to it. Have an alternative available and be ready to turn around if necessary.
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That's kind of what I was looking for. Is it easy to tell when it's about to close up. There is a need for more learning about weather when it comes to piloting. There is not enough when it comes to getting your private. Obviously, the need to become proficient and comfortable when flying above the clouds without an IFR rating also. As some people have stated your ticket is a ticket to learn, because they damn sure give you only the basics.
 
tawood said:
I like that, and I've done that too. I wish there was something good for cloud tops other than the (infrequent) PIREP.

I like your sign-on name too tuwood...
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www.aviationweather.com, click on Forecasts, scroll down to Experimental Graphic Forecasts, click on clouds. On the left, see Bases, Tops, and Coverage. Not perfect by a long shot, but it's the best thing we have to work with.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
www.aviationweather.com, click on Forecasts, scroll down to Experimental Graphic Forecasts, click on clouds. On the left, see Bases, Tops, and Coverage. Not perfect by a long shot, but it's the best thing we have to work with.

Bob Gardner
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Looks like that domain got picked up by a squatter.
 
mjburian said:
Take an instructor or instrument rated friend along sometime and go on top (VFR, if possible). Talk to them about your concerns and listen to how they discuss it. Experience it and decide whether that helps you in your thinking/planning or if you'll still avoid it. No right or wrong answer for everyone, it's something personal. (Also, consider getting your instrument rating and questions like this become quite a bit easier to answer since, in many cases, you'll WANT to climb/descend THROUGH the layer.
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Since Techsan02 is in Fort Worth, and I'm just up the road a bit in Denton, I'll volunteer to be that IFR rated friend.
 
I was going to suggest a skew-t, but these are a little more user friendly. Thanks.

bobmrg said:
www.aviationweather.com, click on Forecasts, scroll down to Experimental Graphic Forecasts, click on clouds. On the left, see Bases, Tops, and Coverage. Not perfect by a long shot, but it's the best thing we have to work with.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...
 
tuwood said:
I wish I would have taken some pictures on my trip from KSUS to KLNK on Sunday. There was a beautiful cloud layer between 5k-7kish and it had lots of puffy cumulus clouds in it. We flew over at 8500.

A great tool I found for figuring out where clouds start and stop in addition to looking at METARS and TAFS is foreflight. If you switch it to satellite view with ceilings you get a great picture of where the clouds are, how high the bases are and where they stop. When you put it in motion you get a feel for where things are going as well.

I just took this picture now from foreflight to give you an idea of what it looks like. The system over IA/MO right now is too big to fly over the top, but the view still looks similar when it is suitable. I mainly use this view to make sure I can get under the clouds and identify where they are at. Then if I'm flying and there's an obvious window to get up and over I know where they stop so it's easier to determine if it's safe or not.

View attachment 46368
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Not a bad idea, HOWEVER, that view does not tell you if the ceiling is a broken, overcast, or scattered. A scattered layer is what the OP posted, and can easily be flow through. Broken not so much (and illegal btw w/o being on an IFR flight plan), and OVC, forget about it!

A better view on FF is to use the satellite with sky coverage AND look at the ceiling heights as well.
 
An even better view is the 'sky coverage' view on ForeFlight. That shows you if it's clear, few, scattered, broken or overcast all at a glance.
 
Rcmutz said:
Broken not so much (and illegal btw w/o being on an IFR flight plan), and OVC, forget about it!
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This is the first I've heard of flying through a broken layer being illegal. Obviously it can be more challenging to find an opening, but as long as you maintain VFR clearances wouldn't it be legal?
 
tuwood said:
This is the first I've heard of flying through a broken layer being illegal. Obviously it can be more challenging to find an opening, but as long as you maintain VFR clearances wouldn't it be legal?
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As long as you can maintain your cloud clearance you're good. It's tough to do so with a broken layer. Nothing illegal about finding holes in a broken layer.
 
Below 10k, the hole would need to be at least 4000ft wide (2/3nm) to maintain 2000ft either side. But then, measuring that stuff can be awfully tricky. I eventually found a good proxy was to use time. If you're doing 210kts in a descent, that's 3.5nm/min which is 21,000ft/min, or 350ft per second. An object 2000ft away it 5.7 seconds. So, as long as I'm about 6 seconds away (laterally) from the edge of a cloud, I'm good to go.

For a plane doing 120kts in the descent, that's 200ft/sec, so you need to stay ~10 secs away from the cloud.
 
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