VFR Nav Log- ok to use GPS (IFR) waypoints?

Hey, let’s expand this - not just for the OP, but for everyone. Go fly on paper charts or at least ForeFlight without the gps reference. Use the E6-B and a paper log and report back here. I expect I’ll be one of the worst, but when I can get a plane, I’ll give it a shot.

then again, the last time I had a “good” idea, we wound up with a monkey.
 
I have a commercial checkride on the 25th. The DPE, who I flew with yesterday, gave me my VFR "flight". I am pretty sure if I showed up with a navlog for a VFR flight that was anything other than Visual reference points, that I would not fly that day, the checkride would be over at the oral!

The whole point for the commercial is VFR, pilotage and dead reckoning. How exactly are you going to locate a GPS waypoint on a chart? How are you going to verify your location and time to the checkpoint if its only an imaginary point in space? Maybe I'm stupid, but when I think pilotage and dead reckoning, I think of landmarks that are definitive, like a large mountain peak, a big dam on a river, a town, an airport, an interstate highway intersection. Those you can SEE, as in VISUAL.
When someone on an instrument approach calls out a fix instead of a distance and direction from the airport, I think "Hmm, that's helpful, I wonder where the FIX is.

Maybe when the question of lost procedures comes up, you can tell him you will just look out the window and fly to a fix or waypoint!
 
Looking at your location, and with a NJ reference in the name, I'm going to guess NYC metro area. So the good news is, there are no shortage of landmarks there. Tall pointy buildings, bridges, etc. Bad news is, you may want to refresh yourself on where that airspace is, without the GPS. I don't mean it as a dig, but that if you try to fumble around with either a paper map or a non-moving screen electronic map in the air, you might get close to flying into the wrong areas. I'd suggest flying around in the general area to get your bearings based on ground reference if you're not used to it.
 
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noahfong said:
This is the point in a nutshell. In a training environment, you want it to be hard. For example, if you are training for a race, you don't want to cheat the process. You would run with weights strapped on; up hills, up stairs...
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Wholeheartedly agree with almost everything you said...but you lost me at the manual E6B lol. That godforsaken whizwheel needs to die already. I totally resonate with making your training as practically difficult as possible, but tediously spinning that stupid piece of cardboard for basic calculations offers no added training benefit. Yes, running the numbers yourself is 1000% the way to go, instead of letting the magic tablet do all the wizardry to spit out a navlog. But I'll take 3mins of manually punching all my data into my CX-3(or other manual flight computer app), over 15mins of trying to remember the correct mystical sequence of wheel rotations just to use the antiquated abomination. No amount of "What if xxx breaks" will convince me that fumbling around with a rotary slide rule in the cockpit, while flying, adds any pilotage training value to the scenario. I'll run with weights strapped on, but I won't be trying to teach myself Mandarin. :)

/rant
 
drummer4468 said:
Wholeheartedly agree with almost everything you said...but you lost me at the manual E6B lol. That godforsaken whizwheel needs to die already. I totally resonate with making your training as practically difficult as possible, but tediously spinning that stupid piece of cardboard for basic calculations offers no added training benefit. Yes, running the numbers yourself is 1000% the way to go, instead of letting the magic tablet do all the wizardry to spit out a navlog. But I'll take 3mins of manually punching all my data into my CX-3(or other manual flight computer app), over 15mins of trying to remember the correct mystical sequence of wheel rotations just to use the antiquated abomination. No amount of "What if xxx breaks" will convince me that fumbling around with a rotary slide rule in the cockpit, while flying, adds any pilotage training value to the scenario. I'll run with weights strapped on, but I won't be trying to teach myself Mandarin. :)

/rant
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:D:) Holy smokes! I don't think I could stop laughing for quite a while! Thanks for this!
 
Yeah - that is funny! If I'm flying and GPS goes out? I call for vectors and dial in VOR's in addition to dead reckoning. Why would I not be be flying X Country on an IFR plan? I'm not flying mail in 1930 here.

Kind of like saying I need to practice candle making in case the power goes out. Basic skills such as looking out the window? Yes, need those. Just like being able to fly without using an auto pilot. Great.

But there seems to be some with mentality of "you’re not worthy" unless you fly in an open cockpit with goggles, hand prop your plane, land, chop down a tree with a hatchet and build a new wing spar on the spot.

BTW - what if - you were on the X Country portion of the Commercial check ride, flying VFR, and you called up flight following?
 
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MauleSkinner said:
FWIW, VORs generally work fairly well for pilotage…nothing else on the ground looks like one.

but ya gotta be good at pilotage to fly close enough to see them.
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Reminds me of the time I rented a plane in the Chicago area and planned a flight that involved flying a course to a VOR, but I never did manage to receive it. Fortunately, I had drawn a line on the chart and written a bearing on it. There wasn't enough crosswind to blow me off course, and I eventually saw the VOR out the windscreen.
 
drummer4468 said:
Wholeheartedly agree with almost everything you said...but you lost me at the manual E6B lol. That godforsaken whizwheel needs to die already. I totally resonate with making your training as practically difficult as possible, but tediously spinning that stupid piece of cardboard for basic calculations offers no added training benefit. Yes, running the numbers yourself is 1000% the way to go, instead of letting the magic tablet do all the wizardry to spit out a navlog. But I'll take 3mins of manually punching all my data into my CX-3(or other manual flight computer app), over 15mins of trying to remember the correct mystical sequence of wheel rotations just to use the antiquated abomination. No amount of "What if xxx breaks" will convince me that fumbling around with a rotary slide rule in the cockpit, while flying, adds any pilotage training value to the scenario. I'll run with weights strapped on, but I won't be trying to teach myself Mandarin. :)

/rant
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Wiz wheel helps you to understand a wind triangle, something you won't get by punching in numbers on a calculator. Plus if you know how to use it, it's faster than electronic.
 
WDD said:
Yeah - that is funny! If I'm flying and GPS goes out? I call for vectors and dial in VOR's in addition to dead reckoning. Why would I not be be flying X Country on an IFR plan? I'm not flying mail in 1930 here.

Kind of like saying I need to practice candle making in case the power goes out. Basic skills such as looking out the window? Yes, need those. Just like being able to fly without using an auto pilot. Great.

But there seems to be some with mentality of "your not worthy" unless you fly in an open cockpit with goggles, hand prop your plane, land, chop down a tree with a hatchet and build a new wing spar on the spot.

BTW - what if - you were on the X Country portion of the Commercial check ride, flying VFR, and you called up flight following?
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I'm flying to Florida next week, and don't plan on flying IFR. I'm current, I'm proficient, everything is up to date. Why do I not plan on it ? Because I don't feel like it. But as for other reasons why someone might not fly IFR XC: The plane isn't IFR certified, you aren't current (or even rated), the MEAs/MOCAs for your route require oxygen, Chicago wants you to go 4000 miles out of your way, etc...
 
drummer4468 said:
Wholeheartedly agree with almost everything you said...but you lost me at the manual E6B lol. That godforsaken whizwheel needs to die already. I totally resonate with making your training as practically difficult as possible, but tediously spinning that stupid piece of cardboard for basic calculations offers no added training benefit. Yes, running the numbers yourself is 1000% the way to go, instead of letting the magic tablet do all the wizardry to spit out a navlog. But I'll take 3mins of manually punching all my data into my CX-3(or other manual flight computer app), over 15mins of trying to remember the correct mystical sequence of wheel rotations just to use the antiquated abomination. No amount of "What if xxx breaks" will convince me that fumbling around with a rotary slide rule in the cockpit, while flying, adds any pilotage training value to the scenario. I'll run with weights strapped on, but I won't be trying to teach myself Mandarin. :)

/rant
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Hey, if it was good enough for Spock, it's good enough for me! :D

mr-spock.jpg
 
E6B is something I always carry, and sometimes use. It's pretty simple do either 1) dial in the GS that GPS calculates, or 2) calculate the GS. Either way, once the GS is dialed in, all it takes is a quick glance to tell you the time to your next checkpoint.
 
I actually still carry a whiz wheel, and if VFR, use it to get quick estimates of time of flight remaining and fuel consumption to determine if I need a fuel stop on maximum range flights. It's just a quick as a calculator on my phone. I mean, basically it is just a circular slide rule with a lot of specialized features. If you can't fly by a map without GPS when VFR, you are a bit deficient as a pilot, IMO. It's usually not too hard to pick out a Finger Lake or interstate highway, etc. While GPS is an amazing resource, the DOD does on occasion make it unavailable in your area, and in some parts of the country reducing VORs to the MON (plus the out of service VORs to boot), VOR airways might be unobtanium where you are flying. The lakes and mountains and highways usually don't move around.
 
If spinning a E6B when flying puts a smile on your face, fantastic! Not using GPS when VFR? More power to you.

What you chose doesn’t make it a mandatory standard however. IMHO not using a moving map with traffic makes one less safe. But - that’s my opinion, not a standard all must follow.
 
I'll revive this old thread by pointing out that even the Private Pilot ACS requires you to know to use the avionics available in the aircraft that you fly during the practical test. See, for example, "Appendix Appendix 7: Aircraft, Equipment, and Operational Requirements & Limitations," in that ACS (and in the similar documents for other certificates and ratings). The navigation tasks in that ACS also emphasize that the applicant must be able to use the available equipment. See, for example, VI. Navigation, B. Navigation Systems and Radar Services. I have more to say on the general topic of teaching and using technology in this video of a presentation that I've been giving lately to aviation groups:
 
BruceAir said:
I'll revive this old thread by pointing out that even the Private Pilot ACS requires you to know to use the avionics available in the aircraft that you fly during the practical test. See, for example, "Appendix Appendix 7: Aircraft, Equipment, and Operational Requirements & Limitations," in that ACS (and in the similar documents for other certificates and ratings). The navigation tasks in that ACS also emphasize that the applicant must be able to use the available equipment. See, for example, VI. Navigation, B. Navigation Systems and Radar Services.
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How does the Commercial ACS address this?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Mostly wondering why @BruceAir revived this thread for his post, since it really doesn’t seem to be relevant.

disclaimer: I didn’t watch Bruce’s video. I’ve found that to be a poor learning method for me.
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I'm mostly wondering why Bruce air gave his extra 300 to the AOPA instead of me...
 
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