VFR in the soup

Captain

Captain

Final Approach
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It's happened to me several times. I'm taking off and climb through a layer. ATC reports traffic at somewhere altitude not confirmed and I see him on the TCAS and report that I'm 'looking'.

Then I pass his altitude and notice I'm in the soup. I've never said anything on the radio to ATC as I figure it's not really my place to rat out other pilots. But it happens enough that it sorta ticks me off.

In a sense I suppose I'm preaching to the choir because at least the guy has his transponder on so I have a better chance than 'Big Sky Theory' to miss him. I'd much rather they leave the transponder on if they're going to bust into IMC without a clearance...

Anyway, is this an issue with anyone else and do you report it to ATC?
 
"I am in IFR conditions, negative contact on the target". Says it all. And in some places, the difference of a mile or two is the difference of VMC and IMC.
 
Works both ways,I was reported as traffic to a jet,while I was above a layer. The pilot of the jet reported to atc that I was imc,since he couldn't see me. If I'm in the soup,I simply say to atc that I'm VMC.,doesn't mean the other reported traffic is.
 
I've only reported one. I broke out into a small clearing almost nose-to-nose with a Barron. He was being reported to us as unverified VFR, rapidly changing altitude and heading, so we figured he was attempting to remain VMC, although failing to do so. Had to do some pretty abrupt maneuvering which caught the attention of the PAX, who also saw it go by.
 
A few years ago as a wet behind the ears IA, I was in the clouds in western Kansas.
KC center.... "06N we have a plane 12 o'clock, opposite direction, your altitude, we're not talking to him".
Me.... "06N is in the clouds!" I'm sure my voice was a couple of octaves higher than normal.
Center...."06N make an immediate left turn 30 degrees."
I did and just after that I broke out for about 20 seconds and saw what appeared to be a Cirrus breaking out off my right wing about 1/4 mile away.

Needless to say, I was NOT happy, but there wasn't much I could do about it.
 
You can report it if you wish, but no action will be taken on the basis of your report without you seeing the other plane's identification markings, and maybe not even then.
 
Ron Levy said:
You can report it if you wish, but no action will be taken on the basis of your report without you seeing the other plane's identification markings, and maybe not even then.
Click to expand...

Which is why I welcome Mode S
 
Wow. on all accounts so far… this one should have some good stories in it in a few days.
 
Shortly after departing KVUO IFR one morning, Portland Departure called out traffic, close, and said he wasn't talking to him. I popped out of a cloud just in time to see a Lancair zip by in the opposite direction, in and out of clouds.

Oh, by the way, this was inside Class C airspace ... :eek:

My wife was always nervous about flying in IMC, because of the thought that there might be some unidentified squirrel running around in the same cloud. I wanted to reassure her that could never happen ... but I couldn't. :dunno:
 
Captain said:
It's happened to me several times. I'm taking off and climb through a layer. ATC reports traffic at somewhere altitude not confirmed and I see him on the TCAS and report that I'm 'looking'.

Then I pass his altitude and notice I'm in the soup. I've never said anything on the radio to ATC as I figure it's not really my place to rat out other pilots. But it happens enough that it sorta ticks me off.

In a sense I suppose I'm preaching to the choir because at least the guy has his transponder on so I have a better chance than 'Big Sky Theory' to miss him. I'd much rather they leave the transponder on if they're going to bust into IMC without a clearance...

Anyway, is this an issue with anyone else and do you report it to ATC?
Click to expand...

Yep, even in the limited amount of time I have flown IFR in the soup, I have come across it twice. I don't care about the consequences for the other guy, I came back to the traffic call with "unable on visual, I am in IMC". Without TCAS or other traffic warning systems, my concern is that ATC knows I am not able to 'see and avoid' and to give me a divergent instruction.
 
My "close call" came with a CFI during primary PP training. There was a good day with IMC in the area, so we did some work in actual instead of under the hood. We got a "traffic alert, make immediate left turn!" from KC Approach. We made that immediate left turn, popped out of the shelf of clouds we were in, then popped back in. But I did see the other airplane cruising along on a t-bone trajectory, in VMC. Those horizontal cloud clearances are there for a reason.
 
In MVFR it is especially wise to get Flight Following. Then at least you are in the system, talking to the correct ATC, and getting traffic calls, and being called out as traffic to others both VFR, and IFR.
 
Anthony said:
In MVFR it is especially wise to get Flight Following. Then at least you are in the system, talking to the correct ATC, and getting traffic calls, and being called out as traffic to others both VFR, and IFR.
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I guess I'm a paranoid newbie pilot. I get flight following anytime I leave the pattern of my home drome, and it's already helped with a close encounter NORDO on just a 52NM flight. I'm a believer...
 
Hobobiker said:
I guess I'm a paranoid newbie pilot. I get flight following anytime I leave the pattern of my home drome, and it's already helped with a close encounter NORDO on just a 52NM flight. I'm a believer...
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I do too, but I still use my eyeballs. Mine was a King Air.
 
Hobobiker said:
I guess I'm a paranoid newbie pilot. I get flight following anytime I leave the pattern of my home drome, and it's already helped with a close encounter NORDO on just a 52NM flight. I'm a believer...
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I'm a 25 year pilot and do the same thing.
 
I had one of those in the soup on the instrument approach into SVH. I was already in the hold-in-loo so I told ATC I'd take another turn in the hold (hopefully, that will appease nosehair) until he moved off the approach course.
 
Pilawt said:
Shortly after departing KVUO IFR one morning, Portland Departure called out traffic, close, and said he wasn't talking to him. I popped out of a cloud just in time to see a Lancair zip by in the opposite direction, in and out of clouds.

Oh, by the way, this was inside Class C airspace ... :eek:

My wife was always nervous about flying in IMC, because of the thought that there might be some unidentified squirrel running around in the same cloud. I wanted to reassure her that could never happen ... but I couldn't. :dunno:
Click to expand...

Try that in our "Class F" airspace and see what happens, after so many radio calls on 121.5 I'm just waiting until things go "Deadly Force authorized" (was gonna make the "F" stand for something else, but this is a public web forum).
 
Anthony said:
In MVFR it is especially wise to get Flight Following. Then at least you are in the system, talking to the correct ATC, and getting traffic calls, and being called out as traffic to others both VFR, and IFR.
Click to expand...

In MVFR down low, radar and radios may not work so well.

If making altitude/heading changes, you may hear "say intentions" every few minutes.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
Even then whether or not he was maintaining legal VFR cloud clearance is just your word against his.
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Maybe if pilots reported this type of thing, the FAA will have enough reason to secure funding for enforcement actions. Perhaps a patrol aircraft with A-A radar in areas of high offenders.

Big Sky only gets us so far until someone has a midair collision with an airliner. Then guess who will be blamed: the Bonanza/Cirrus/Aztec/Exp fliers.
 
Once everyone has ADS-B out, ATC will know everything about every target, whether they are talking or not. Name, address, phone number (and, soon enough, credit card info).

Every time I fly, I am aware of this. (I've had "out" since February '14).

Whether this will make any difference regarding the specific problem of idjits flying VFR into IMC remains to be seen -- but it will certainly make enforcement actions of all kinds easier.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Once everyone has ADS-B out, ATC will know everything about every target, whether they are talking or not. Name, address, phone number (and, soon enough, credit card info).

Every time I fly, I am aware of this. (I've had "out" since February '14).

Whether this will make any difference regarding the specific problem of idjits flying VFR into IMC remains to be seen -- but it will certainly make enforcement actions of all kinds easier.
Click to expand...

Once everybody has ADS-B out and in capabilities, they will be able to see it for themselves, along with every unmanned drone as well.
 
Henning said:
Once everybody has ADS-B out and in capabilities, they will be able to see it for themselves, along with every unmanned drone as well.
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how many aircraft will choose to comply with ADS-B out?...or better yet even have functioning transponder. :dunno:
 
Henning said:
Once everybody has ADS-B out and in capabilities, they will be able to see it for themselves, along with every unmanned drone as well.
Click to expand...

When will that happen? It won't be 2020. Not if you're outside class B/C areas.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
how many aircraft will choose to comply with ADS-B out?...or better yet even have functioning transponder. :dunno:
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Most all. For as much as pilots whine about everything, but for the most part follow the rules. Planes will either get equipped, (a few thousand for a UAT system will suffice) or their plane will be of limited utility and unsellable.
 
Henning said:
Most all. For as much as pilots whine about everything, but for the most part follow the rules. Planes will either get equipped, (a few thousand for a UAT system will suffice) or their plane will be of limited utility and unsellable.
Click to expand...
Agree. Why, I've already forgotten the pain of that upgrade... ;)
 
Jay Honeck said:
Agree. Why, I've already forgotten the pain of that upgrade... ;)
Click to expand...

If done properly, it's a pretty high value upgrade for a few thousand dollars. On the scale of AMU/Benefit in the aviation theatre, ADS-B is a pretty good value and part of the expense of bringing GA with us into the future. The future of aviation is UAVs, they will be a growing sector of commerce, if we can't safely interact with them, we will be the ones limited, not they.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Once everyone has ADS-B out, ATC will know everything about every target, whether they are talking or not. Name, address, phone number (and, soon enough, credit card info).
Click to expand...

ADS-B does not report flight visibility or cloud distances, so the most vital bit of information is not available to authorities.

The reality is that mid air collisions will continue to be most probable near airports with VMC. ADS-B In displays for those busy places may be just cluttered enough to make it difficult to determine what the collision threats are in a timely manner.
 
Jim Logajan said:
ADS-B does not report flight visibility or cloud distances, so the most vital bit of information is not available to authorities.

The reality is that mid air collisions will continue to be most probable near airports with VMC. ADS-B In displays for those busy places may be just cluttered enough to make it difficult to determine what the collision threats are in a timely manner.
Click to expand...

Your position is a display showing where planes are will make it harder to know where planes are?
 
Jaybird180 said:
Maybe if pilots reported this type of thing, the FAA will have enough reason to secure funding for enforcement actions
Click to expand...
I doubt that it's for lack of funding, yeah if he's squawking mode S we'll know who he is and he'll claim that he was maintaining VFR cloud clearance. How do you propose to prove he wasn't?
 
peerlesscowboy said:
I doubt that it's for lack of funding, yeah if he's squawking mode S we'll know who he is and he'll claim that he was maintaining VFR cloud clearance. How do you propose to prove he wasn't?
Click to expand...

Yep, that's the problem with all that, it's a big waste of time. Better to just be equipped with the information to be be able to eSee & Avoid when you can't see them for real. This is another bright point to SVT displays with traffic in, or even standard traffic displays. I foresee all UAVs being required an autonomous traffic avoidance system based on the same rules as TCAS advisories driving autopilot inputs.
 
Captain said:
Your position is a display showing where planes are will make it harder to know where planes are?
Click to expand...

I didn't make that claim.

Attached are some screen shots of WingX showing traffic from an ADS-B In/Out system. Two of them were snapped within a minute of each other. I was using a low-altitude IFR chart to decrease useless ground clutter so nearby aircraft could be better seen. The third was taken maybe 2 months later with a standard VFR chart as background.

It takes time to scan the iPad display for possible conflicting traffic - doing that in the pattern takes time away from my other landing duties, like putting down the coffee and folding the newspaper, don't-cha-know.
 

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Jay Honeck said:
Once everyone has ADS-B out, ATC will know everything about every target, whether they are talking or not. Name, address, phone number (and, soon enough, credit card info).

Every time I fly, I am aware of this. (I've had "out" since February '14).

Whether this will make any difference regarding the specific problem of idjits flying VFR into IMC remains to be seen -- but it will certainly make enforcement actions of all kinds easier.
Click to expand...

Not everyone will have ADS-B, nor will they be required to have it.
My Champ will never have it because of the lack of an electrical system, but then again I never fly in marginal conditions. I fly for fun when it's nice out, the IFR stuff is for work flying.
 
Jim Logajan said:
ADS-B does not report flight visibility or cloud distances, so the most vital bit of information is not available to authorities.

The reality is that mid air collisions will continue to be most probable near airports with VMC. ADS-B In displays for those busy places may be just cluttered enough to make it difficult to determine what the collision threats are in a timely manner.
Click to expand...
I disagree....most mid-airs occur during clear blue skys with unlimited viz....VFR....near an intersection or an airport pattern entry.:yikes:

ADS-B will not prevent mid-airs as much as it creates awareness for what is acually see-able....and the fallocy in "see and avoid". Let's face it....we just can't see as much as we'd like to think we're seeing. The big blue sky theory saves most of us....IMHO.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
I disagree....most mid-airs occur during clear blue skys with unlimited viz....VFR....near an intersection or an airport pattern entry.:yikes:

ADS-B will not prevent mid-airs as much as it creates awareness for what is acually see-able....and the fallocy in "see and avoid". Let's face it....we just can't see as much as we'd like to think we're seeing. The big blue sky theory saves most of us....IMHO.
Click to expand...

Yep, flying with a traffic system makes you realize how much you don't see. As for not having an electrical system, a motorcycle battery charged between flights should be sufficient to drive a system.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
I doubt that it's for lack of funding, yeah if he's squawking mode S we'll know who he is and he'll claim that he was maintaining VFR cloud clearance. How do you propose to prove he wasn't?
Click to expand...

Don't need to do so to the 'beyond reasonable doubt' standard.
 
Jim Logajan said:
I didn't make that claim.

Attached are some screen shots of WingX showing traffic from an ADS-B In/Out system. Two of them were snapped within a minute of each other. I was using a low-altitude IFR chart to decrease useless ground clutter so nearby aircraft could be better seen. The third was taken maybe 2 months later with a standard VFR chart as background.

It takes time to scan the iPad display for possible conflicting traffic - doing that in the pattern takes time away from my other landing duties, like putting down the coffee and folding the newspaper, don't-cha-know.
Click to expand...

I'm all for using iPads in the cockpit, however they are not where they need to be to make tactical decisions. They are great for situational awareness though.

Even though you're on the low altitude chart the scale is way too far out for what you'd want in a traffic pattern. Looks to me about 30 to 40 miles from the left edge to the right edge in your screen shots. For use in the pattern you'd want 5 to 10 miles from left to right. At that scale you'll find a lot more useful information assuming zero lag and real time information.
 
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