VFR Clearance took forever . . . KSAN

[comanchepilot]

So I departed San Diego Lindbergh yesterday - called up Clearance delivery and said:

"Comanche xx90P VFR Bravo clearance advisories to Papa Oscar Charlie coastline route."

Then I got the trainee. oh boy. asked the same questions to get the same info I already gave them on call-up. Twice. Then he told me I was not likely to get the coast line route [MZB OCN then go anywhere you want] - when thats ALL you get leaving KSAN VFR.

I was very patient with the trainee. Right after I called up a Southwest flight called for their clearance to Oakland - the ATIS said to call 5 min before push. It took this guy 15 min to get me a simple VFR clearance out of the airport which ended up being "fly hdg 310, VFR at or below 3000, freq squawk." Like it always is. But it took 16 min from the first call until I acknowledged.

BUT - the Southwest flight missed his take off time because the guy could not process their clearance. I heard that as I starting up. I've never heard CD screw up an IFR flight that badly. . . .

He could not process the IFR clearance in front of him without doing mine first - I thought they trained people in OKC before they kicked them out . . . this is basic stuff.

 

[flyingron]

The good thing is CD doesn't usually bend tin or damage skin. A good place to start the new guys before turning them lose on ground control.

 

[Palmpilot]

There, you see? ATC does cause delays and needs to be privatized!

 

[Harold Rutila]

There are no new-hire controllers at SAN.

 

[Jay Honeck]

Meanwhile, yesterday at woefully underutilized KGLS (Galveston) we were cleared to land 15 miles out, and were their only traffic.

Wouldn't it be nice if some of this traffic could be spread around?

 

[comanchepilot]

Meanwhile, yesterday at woefully underutilized KGLS (Galveston) we were cleared to land 15 miles out, and were their only traffic.

Wouldn't it be nice if some of this traffic could be spread around?

under the new Trump ATC rules - we will have to go less used airports in order to spread the employees around and make them more efficient - careful what you wish for!

 

[mtuomi]

Last time I was in KSAN, I wanted to hop over to Brown VFR. Called CD and 10 minutes later they came back with the most convoluted IFR clearance I've ever heard in my life for such a short flight (like: 2 VOR radials, a couple of airways, a few RNAV points etc).
When I clarified I asked for VFR, they just said "oh, fly heading 220, I'd appreciate an early turn out".

 

[Fearless Tower]

There are no new-hire controllers at SAN.

Likely true…..just guys who are not used to VFR traffic departing SAN.

Honestly, I'm curious why anyone other than Bill Gates would fly GA into Lindbergh considering how high the fees are.

 

[steingar]

I must have taken my stupid pill this morning. I've never asked for nor received a clearance to fly VFR anywhere. I just go. If the ATC has trouble giving advisories I tell them not to bother, I got eyes. Either I'm getting stupid(er) in my caducity or there's more to this.

 

[luvflyin]

I must have taken my stupid pill this morning. I've never asked for nor received a clearance to fly VFR anywhere. I just go. If the ATC has trouble giving advisories I tell them not to bother, I got eyes. Either I'm getting stupid(er) in my caducity or there's more to this.

You haven't landed or departed an airport in a Class B Surface Area then. KSAN is one.

 

[luvflyin]

Next time just say you're going over to MYF. Then when SAN Tower is done with you and changes you over to MYF Tower, change your mind, terminate, mosey on up the coast at 4500, then 6500.

 

[luvflyin]

@comanchepilot ? Did you ever fly in there when Landmark was the FBO. How is Signature doing there?

 

[Palmpilot]

Likely true…..just guys who are not used to VFR traffic departing SAN.

Honestly, I'm curious why anyone other than Bill Gates would fly GA into Lindbergh considering how high the fees are.

Speaking of fees, how high are they at SAN?

 

[Rykymus]

I paid about $50 a couple weeks ago.

 

[MAKG1]

I must have taken my stupid pill this morning. I've never asked for nor received a clearance to fly VFR anywhere. I just go. If the ATC has trouble giving advisories I tell them not to bother, I got eyes. Either I'm getting stupid(er) in my caducity or there's more to this.

You get into a lot of trouble when operating in Class B without a clearance. VFR or IFR.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I paid about $50 a couple weeks ago.

Have they actually lowered it?

Back when it was Landmark, it was at least $100 to stay overnight and fuel was around $8 per gallon.

I just looked and fuel (while still high) is down to $6.80. Kind of atypical for Signature.

 

[Rykymus]

I was actually there twice. Once dropping my daughter off, the next time picking her up a week later. Both were 1 hr turn-arounds. Kinda surprised they didn't waive the fee with top-offs, both of which were well over 20 gallons. But they do have nice facilities. I took a nice catnap in their pilot's lounge. Probably woke everyone up with my snoring. Got the longest clearance of my life on departure.

 

[Palmpilot]

When I became a pilot in 1991, I heard that the landing fee at SFO was $30, and I thought that was a lot to pay.

 

[asicer]

When I became a pilot in 1991, I heard that the landing fee at SFO was $30, and I thought that was a lot to pay.

Do you ever regret not having it in your logbook?

 

[Palmpilot]

Do you ever regret not having it in your logbook?

Not at all. Any regret I may have would be about not experiencing it, not about whether it was in my logbook or not. Even that is pretty minor as regrets go. I've landed on huge runways since then, so it's not like I don't know what that's like.

 

[Kritchlow]

You get into a lot of trouble when operating in Class B without a clearance. VFR or IFR.

I doubt ground would even let you taxi until you have a chat with CD.

 

[Kritchlow]

Have they actually lowered it?

Back when it was Landmark, it was at least $100 to stay overnight and fuel was around $8 per gallon.

I just looked and fuel (while still high) is down to $6.80. Kind of atypical for Signature.

I flew corporate in there many times. It was somewhere north of $500 or a high fuel expense for overnight. This goes back to when it was Jim's.
We did it all the time, but hey... I wasn't paying the bill.

 

[NJP_MAN]

I flew corporate in there many times. It was somewhere north of $500 or a high fuel expense for overnight. This goes back to when it was Jim's.
We did it all the time, but hey... I wasn't paying the bill.

last time I was there it was near $800 just to land, pick up a passenger then leave. I even got the departure clearance while taxiing in to the fbo and left 2 of the engines running. It was in and out in the amount of time it took to shuffle in and pay the bill.

 

[steingar]

You haven't landed or departed an airport in a Class B Surface Area then. KSAN is one.

Nope, can't say that I have.

You get into a lot of trouble when operating in Class B without a clearance. VFR or IFR.

My bad. Never landed a Bravo, don't care for the expense. I've had to contact CD at a couple Charlie's, but it's never been more than a departure vector.

 

[Pilawt]

Another end of an era, unfortunately. I landed at KSAN frequently when I lived and worked in SoCal, up to 1995. Jimsair always treated me well, and the convenience to downtown outweighed the additional expense over KMYF.









My last trip there was in 2007. It was at night, and both KMYF and KCRQ went below minima (KMYF's localizer was OTS, and a construction crane near KCRQ had bumped minima up temporarily), so I diverted to KSAN. I'm pretty certain my Bonanza was the only piston airplane on the airport that night.

 

[comanchepilot]

I must have taken my stupid pill this morning. I've never asked for nor received a clearance to fly VFR anywhere. I just go. If the ATC has trouble giving advisories I tell them not to bother, I got eyes. Either I'm getting stupid(er) in my caducity or there's more to this.

Well, if you are at a Class B airport you need a clearance out . . . .

 

[paflyer]

I must have taken my stupid pill this morning. I've never asked for nor received a clearance to fly VFR anywhere. I just go. If the ATC has trouble giving advisories I tell them not to bother, I got eyes. Either I'm getting stupid(er) in my caducity or there's more to this.

Ever fly out of a controlled airport?

 

[luvflyin]

I just called Signature. $50 handling charge plus $5 for some city thing. 15 gallons of gas waives the $50 handling fee and they charge 50 cents less a gallon on weekends. That's close to what I remember from a few years ago when Landmark was running the joint

 

[Fearless Tower]

Jimsair always treated me well, and the convenience to downtown outweighed the additional expense over KMYF.

We used to use Jimsair a lot back in the 80s....until the line guys backed dad's Turbo Lance into something and crushed the trim tab, but didn't bother to tell him (he discovered it on preflight). After that it was MYF.

People talk about convenience, but MYF is only 10 min away from downtown.

 

[Pilawt]

People talk about convenience, but MYF is only 10 min away from downtown.

Yeah ... but not so much during morning rush hour, and I usually had to be downtown at 0900 on the dot. 163 has always been a bear in the morning.

 

[comanchepilot]

@comanchepilot ? Did you ever fly in there when Landmark was the FBO. How is Signature doing there?

its the same manager - and same employees that I recognized from going in there last fall. Signature is doing ok - no services for us little guys - they just don't care really. Which is fine -that how you get the outrageous fees reduced.

Now, on to fees - and costs - and access

Getting into Lindbergh is dirt simple - they bring you down the coast from anywhere north of OCN, at 2500' Then you go direct MZB, enter a right downwind and bring it around to 27 - and you're generally off at Charlie 5.

My ops resulted in my purchase of 14 gallons of 100LL @ $6.80. Gibbs over at MYF was at $5.45. So I paid $18.90 more for fuel than if I purchased at MYF.

My hotel was in Gas Lamp - my meeting was close by. I met friends for dinner in Old Town - and did not use a car. My choices for a ride from Signature to my Hotel included:
a) The Trolley - a 7 min walk and $2.50 - dropped me off literally across the street from my hotel
b) Uber at $10
c) a cab at about $15.
d) A free ride from Signature in the van plus a $5 tip each way.

Choice? I asked Signature - despite having at least 6 ramp rats they were too busy. So I chose A. $2.50.

If I went to MYF - the UBER would have been about $16 each way. So I would have spent $32 on transport and saved $18.90 on fuel.

Signature waived the facility fee with a top - and only charged me $5 for an overnight ramp fee - and waived all other costs because they could not provide me any services because they were 'busy.'

So - in exchange for being literally 20 min from hotel - including the walk and the trolley ride - the total cost at Signature was $100.20, $5 for the Trolley. Total $105.20

Cost at Gibbs at MYF: $76.30. Plus $32 Uber. Total $108.30. Thus - It cost me $3.10 LESS to go to Lindergh. YMMV.

But I've also noted that same non-existent cost differential at Las Vegas and Oakland -

Sometimes - you need to do the math to discover that paying $1.25 more for fuel actually costs less -plus - the hassle factor alone of spending 30 min in the car from MYF downtown -

 

[comanchepilot]

Yeah ... but not so much during morning rush hour, and I usually had to be downtown at 0900 on the dot. 163 has always been a bear in the morning.

Bingo - 163 ALWAYS has traffic - plus - you have spend the time waiting for the Uber - might as well walk over to the trolley.

 

[comanchepilot]

last time I was there it was near $800 just to land, pick up a passenger then leave. I even got the departure clearance while taxiing in to the fbo and left 2 of the engines running. It was in and out in the amount of time it took to shuffle in and pay the bill.

how many engines did you have? And what ac type? with which FBO?

 

[Fearless Tower]

how many engines did you have? And what ac type? with which FBO?

That has everything to do with it. I only ever priced it for a Twin and it was significantly more to go to SAN than MYF. Doable if only one night, but for multiple nights, SAN gets downright stupid for cost.

 

[luvflyin]

That has everything to do with it. I only ever priced it for a Twin and it was significantly more to go to SAN than MYF. Doable if only one night, but for multiple nights, SAN gets downright stupid for cost.

Yeah. I wonder if ya showed up with lots of air in your tanks and said put in 15 gallons a day they'd waive the $50 fee per night. They'd probably start a thread called "why are pilots so cheap." LOL

 

[NJP_MAN]

how many engines did you have? And what ac type? with which FBO?

3, DA7X and over 70,000 lbs I'm sure at some weight the price goes up. Signature if I recall correctly.

 

[comanchepilot]

I have negotiated rates with a Signature before - Sig was never the worst guy on the block - Millionair was worse - and they rarely waived anything. Sig bought them all I think.

This is a twin with a friend who was averse to going to an airport where Sig was the only game in town.

Hi, I'm calling about your fees. We're arriving in a twin piston tomorrow and planning on staying three nights - what can we expect?

They tell you about their 'standard' $50 a night fee - 'we're not able to charge the fee to anyone else, its just us. We can go to Airport Y but you are more convenient, but not at those fees - we are expecting to buy 25/35/ whatever gallons of fuel and we hoping to get some accommodation."

Don't ask you don't get. Its not a corporate charter where they are spending $25k so $500 of FBO fees don't matter. . .. usually I get the ridiculous 'handling' fee waived without question, then 1 night with fuel. So now we're at $50 plus the extra cost of fuel - thats livable when they're less than 5 miles from where you are going -

 

[clarkmueller]

Have they actually lowered it?

Back when it was Landmark, it was at least $100 to stay overnight and fuel was around $8 per gallon.

I just looked and fuel (while still high) is down to $6.80. Kind of atypical for Signature.

I was there a month or two ago, first time since Signature took over. I was floored by how much the cost of gas has gone down. Very much to my surprise, they even had a 25 cent fuel discount on 100LL on the weekend.

 

[clarkmueller]

its the same manager - and same employees that I recognized from going in there last fall. Signature is doing ok - no services for us little guys - they just don't care really. Which is fine -that how you get the outrageous fees reduced.

Now, on to fees - and costs - and access

Getting into Lindbergh is dirt simple - they bring you down the coast from anywhere north of OCN, at 2500' Then you go direct MZB, enter a right downwind and bring it around to 27 - and you're generally off at Charlie 5.

My ops resulted in my purchase of 14 gallons of 100LL @ $6.80. Gibbs over at MYF was at $5.45. So I paid $18.90 more for fuel than if I purchased at MYF.

My hotel was in Gas Lamp - my meeting was close by. I met friends for dinner in Old Town - and did not use a car. My choices for a ride from Signature to my Hotel included:
a) The Trolley - a 7 min walk and $2.50 - dropped me off literally across the street from my hotel
b) Uber at $10
c) a cab at about $15.
d) A free ride from Signature in the van plus a $5 tip each way.

Choice? I asked Signature - despite having at least 6 ramp rats they were too busy. So I chose A. $2.50.

If I went to MYF - the UBER would have been about $16 each way. So I would have spent $32 on transport and saved $18.90 on fuel.

Signature waived the facility fee with a top - and only charged me $5 for an overnight ramp fee - and waived all other costs because they could not provide me any services because they were 'busy.'

So - in exchange for being literally 20 min from hotel - including the walk and the trolley ride - the total cost at Signature was $100.20, $5 for the Trolley. Total $105.20

Cost at Gibbs at MYF: $76.30. Plus $32 Uber. Total $108.30. Thus - It cost me $3.10 LESS to go to Lindergh. YMMV.

But I've also noted that same non-existent cost differential at Las Vegas and Oakland -

Sometimes - you need to do the math to discover that paying $1.25 more for fuel actually costs less -plus - the hassle factor alone of spending 30 min in the car from MYF downtown -

Yeah, all of that!

 

[Fearless Tower]

I was there a month or two ago, first time since Signature took over. I was floored by how much the cost of gas has gone down. Very much to my surprise, they even had a 25 cent fuel discount on 100LL on the weekend.

There have been some positive changes since the acquisition. Signature actually lowered their fuel price at SDL by at least a dollar.