Very high airframe time

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onwards

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onwards
So I've been wanting to buy a plane, and while I can stretch the budget quite a bit - to say $80K or so - I would rather spend half that, so that (a) I am more comfortable rather than more stressed; and (b) I have a good buffer for the obvious ****zgonewrongs.

With that said, I want a 6-seater. Now we're starting to talk about compromises.

I have been thinking a lot about this, and eventually decided that the one thing that I could probably gain the biggest compromise bang-for-the-buck on is airframe time. As a result, I started monitoring the various places online and off for 6-seaters (mainly 210 and Piper6) with high airframe time. I have, in particular, tried finding part 135 planes, which fly a lot but are also well maintained.

Well, I just ran into one. Current 135 P6, mid 70's, nice price, fairly low-time engine (700 hours or so), and... let's say it has close to 20,000 airframe hours. Remember, it's a 135.

This in itself doesn't worry me that much in theory (on account of having already settled on this as a reasonable compromise), but now that I found an actual acquisition target and it's potentially moving into the practical stages, I wanted to toss it out there to those of you who know: if I get a real nice price for a plane like that, and it it's current 135, annual, and passes a proper pre-buy inspection, how worried should I be about the airframe time? do planes "just die" for having flown a lot?

I am being vague on the price itself because I don't want to distract from the main question, but consider that the cost will be about half of buying a comparable "typical time" airframe - which is tens of thousands less.
 
Also, to clarify, I have been looking for part 135 FREIGHT, NOT flight school. The reason is that while they both create high airframe time, my thinking is that the freight operations tend to put a lot less stress on the frame due to bad landings. This is true for this particular plane as well.
 
A key issue in buying high-time airframe is the reduced resale value - so make sure you're comfortable with that.

If it passes a stringent pre-buy, performed by an expert in the type, buy, fly, enjoy!
 
onwards said:
Also, to clarify, I have been looking for part 135 FREIGHT, NOT flight school. The reason is that while they both create high airframe time, my thinking is that the freight operations tend to put a lot less stress on the frame due to bad landings. This is true for this particular plane as well.
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Sounds like you've already made up your mind for the most part.

If I were to even consider an aircraft like that, it would have to be close to home.

It would also have to pass a thorough visual inspection (aircraft and logs) by me, before I would consider paying an A/P for a pre-buy.

20,000 hours of freight operations, in all kinds of rough weather, always at or above gross, on a shoe string budget, yeah I'd be careful.
 
Unable to tell you about this specific airframe type, but there are some that we're built strong enough that TT is irrelevant to the astute purchaser. Just be aware as above your ability to unload it may be an issue for all but the equally studied on the type.
 
20,000 hours is a LOT of hours on an airframe like that. The pre-buy would have to be VERY thorough.
 
The planes I fly the most have 8,000 and 10,000 hours on them. It's pretty rare for me to fly something with under 8,000 hours on it. A lot of people on this board have planes in the 2-3,000 TT, which to me means it was underused.

When you get into the 20,000 hour TT range, I wouldn't necessarily be worried about the plane so much, especially on 135, but you may find that some of the little fit and finish things are pretty much junk. A lot of these high-time 135 freight dogs I see have crap for interior, the doors probably won't line up even close to perfect (this can be a problem with Pipers when they're new), and things like that. So you may want to take that in as a consideration.

I'd probably want to give it a good test flight including seeing if you had any strange characteristics when into the yellow arc on speed (I've seen some planes with high hours do that), but I wouldn't worry about the plane overall. It's capable of having problems, just like anything else. But if it's been maintained well, you're probably no worse off than with something that's got low times on it.
 
I'll make the observation, are you so certain about the 6 seater? But the one thing I always ask is "how often will you use all that".

I've seen a lot of people plan for the occasional trip instead of what they usually fly. I owned a Cessna 150 with a guy who insisted he NEEDED a back seat. When we got one, he used the back seat several times, but it hasn't had a body in it in years.

Probably you've already thought this out and this post is unnecessary. But given the amount of money it could save you, I put it out there.
 
steingar said:
I'll make the observation, are you so certain about the 6 seater? But the one thing I always ask is "how often will you use all that".

I've seen a lot of people plan for the occasional trip instead of what they usually fly. I owned a Cessna 150 with a guy who insisted he NEEDED a back seat. When we got one, he used the back seat several times, but it hasn't had a body in it in years.

Probably you've already thought this out and this post is unnecessary. But given the amount of money it could save you, I put it out there.
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Well, it's an excellent question, and one that I HAD to think about of course, because if I stick to 4-seaters, I can fit a whole lot more plane into my budget.

And the thing is, I KNOW I would not use those last two seats often - maybe a handful of times a year. I doubt it will represent even 10% of my flying.

But here is the problem: when I want and need those extra seats, I have no other way of obtaining them. There is no 6-seater rental that I can have anywhere nearby.

All I REALLY need is a fifth seat, but I don't know that it matters that much once you go beyond four.

I do use 3 and 4 seats regularly though - maybe 70% of my flights involve the use of the backseat on a 4-seater.
 
So, good replies thus far, thank you all. I think the one thing that stands out to me is that I should be seeing the plane for myself, which is not going to happen with this one. I thought about this, and I'd like some more insight here: since I never bought a plane before, and I am not that mechanically inclined in terms of understanding what I'm seeing, what purpose does my checking it out serve? isn't it better to remotely hire an expert mechanic to go and look at it?

EDIT: also, the other point that seems important is how they are used in freight operations (at or above load limits in rough conditions). Is this better or worse than a flight school experience on the airframe? the former means a lot of hours in all sorts of conditions but relatively good pilots, the latter means mostly flying in sunny skies but a lot more landings and takeoffs with very inexperienced folks at the controls. My idea to this point is that the latter is a lot worse than the former when considering high-time airframes, but am I wrong?
 
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A part 135 operation won't give up any aircraft that is making money for them. Make sure they are not dumping this A/C because it is a maintenance pig, Because if they can't support it, what makes you think you can?
 
I'm thinkin' that not many six seaters see use in flight training so the freight use vs training use question is pretty much pointless.

I don't know enough about aircraft design in general or a Piper 6 to have an educated opinion. I do know that we can't measure fatigue. I don't know the design loads well enough to guess if fatigue is likely to be a problem. I do know that corrosion will likely make any fatigue concerns worse. Freight ops in the mountains may be worse than else where because of the frequent turbulent conditions. About all I can add are questions. I do believe that if I operated a 20,000 hour single that inspection for cracks would be a regular thing, probably do 100 hour inspections.

Also, as other have noted, the interior will be totally shot unless it has had a recent total refit. I'm not just talking about upholstery here either...
 
Save up more money. There will still be plenty of planes for sale next year. ;)
 
rpadula said:
Save up more money. There will still be plenty of planes for sale next year. ;)
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That's probably very true, and the main reason I have not bought something yet... seems like the used plane market is going to get even softer, hard as it is to believe. Who knows what $50K could get later this year?
 
Tom-D said:
A part 135 operation won't give up any aircraft that is making money for them. Make sure they are not dumping this A/C because it is a maintenance pig, Because if they can't support it, what makes you think you can?
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This is a good point. It seems like most 135s that are selling planes are selling ones that are completely run out. Engines, props, 100-hour, everything at max time.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
This is a good point. It seems like most 135s that are selling planes are selling ones that are completely run out. Engines, props, 100-hour, everything at max time.
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OK, OK, got it :)

So as I was looking at all these I found a much lower-time reasonably-priced plane... trying to get my ducks in a row from an insurance and financing perspective and get it checked.
 
Figure out the scrap value of the plane and take that as your resale value. That way, if you get anything more than that then you'll be pleasantly surprised.
 
High time but ACTUALLY maintained to 135 standars?

Probably no problem.

FWIW we have a 77 172 with 16k hrs. No more problems than planes with 1/8th the time because it get's flown and maintained.
 
Just remember that when you try to sell, you're gonna find a much smaller pool of
genuine buyers. Ergo; get the discount now ...
 
onwards said:
That's probably very true, and the main reason I have not bought something yet... seems like the used plane market is going to get even softer, hard as it is to believe. Who knows what $50K could get later this year?
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I didn't say "save your money" because I think prices are going to be lower next year. I said it because -- to mix metaphors -- there are plenty of fish in the sea, so why are you kissing a frog? (a 20,000-hour airframe!)
 
rpadula said:
I didn't say "save your money" because I think prices are going to be lower next year. I said it because -- to mix metaphors -- there are plenty of fish in the sea, so why are you kissing a frog? (a 20,000-hour airframe!)
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You're right, and I'm off this particular bandwagon. It was worth asking though, the ensuing discussion was quite educational!
 
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