Venting some fusterations and possible ideas/solutions

[sarangan]

I am new here but ive always liked the idea of community forums because there is no better resource then a group of like minded people who share the same passion when looking for guidance.
To start I'm not a pilot yet.. I havent even taken an intro flight yet but I have done a lot of ground school classes in preparation for actual flight training. But there in lies the problem getting flight training the cost and challenge of find the school thats both affordable and right for me.
I have been searching now for sometime for the right school to achieve my first goal of many which is to earn my private pilots certificate, in my search I even put up a post looking for a independent CFI because a pilot in a FBO made a recommendation to me regarding it. The post received mixed feed back some supportive some negative but nowl real leads.
The problem I have like many people is budget, I had no illusions going into this that school would be cheap but I promised my family I would do my best to keep the cost down as much as possible. I started with getting as much ground school as I could with the hopes that if I had a good,knowledge and understanding of the concepts and material when it came to the practice application in the plane I would be ahead of the game keeping the amount of hours need down as much as possible the next was shopping,around for the student pilot supplies also knocking the out of pocket expenses down. But now I'm at the phase of training the part where I got bite the bullet an spend some real money in hopes down,the line it may one day pay off in the form of a career in aviation. Here's were the fusteration comes in.. The cost is high I understand the logistics of it but don't agree full heartedly that it has to be that way.. First off the number one thing I keep hearing during my research is "the world is in desperate need of new pilots" and "there's a pilot shortage"... But I gotta say if there is its not because there aren't average people out there wanting a career as a pilot, in fact there is tons of people that would love to fill those spots its just for the average working class person the cost of becoming a pilot and working the way up the ladder with hours of training and flight time is out of reach with out a huge financial strain.
If the cost was even 1/4 less the average cost it is today id be willing to bet that there would be at least 50 precent increase in the yearly new entry students applying to earn there private pilots license and then at least attempting to continue on torwards commercial pilot.
I've read a lot of debates regarding the cost of training the responses are always the same either someone cant afford it and they are told to work harder save up and one day they can afford there dreams .. Or my personal behated one which is if you can't afford it, it isn't for you... Let me just say when I hear that I want to reach threw the computer and smack someone, aviation isnt supposed to be some snooty country club where the members want to keep the poor out .. When I hear those words I immediately know those people aren't the ones who are gonna be the next commercial airline pilots of the future.

If the industry catered to the consumer instead of raising the costs expecting people to be able to meet them it would be doing much much better in all ways instructors might be able to actually pay the bills with there earnings and FBOs would do more buisness, manufacturers would make more money selling planes, airports would also make more profit housing planes, Every one would do better for it.

I know I'm ranting but I'm fusterated I researched the average yearly cost of maintaining a cessna 172 and I believe if an instructor own his airplane and the student only had to pay half the cost lets say about 100 bucks an hour the instructor would make money be able to fuel up his plane and insure and maintain it with out issue. I know some of you are thinking this guys full of crap but think about it a little if when you were a student, You could get twice the amount of training as you could for the price you paid for the hour youd be willing to shell out more because you were earning your time faster thus the instructor is getting paid more each lesson because the student is spending more.

Guys maybe its only me who dreams of a world were there will be lower costs and more resources for people wanting to train for there pilots cert but unless we figure something out we will always face the same issues and the economy is only gonna get worse thus harder for people to become pilots

I used to think flying was expensive too. But the cost is not out of line when you put it in context of other things that we pay for.

Hiring a carpenter or plumber will cost you about $75/hr. An auto mechanic is $100/hr. These are trades without advanced education. Those with higher education, such as accountants and consultants, and therapists are significantly higher.

Even driving your car will incur an average cost (according to the IRS) of $30/hr, and that doesn't even include the driver's time.

Considering all that, a machine that literally flies, for $100-$150/hr including fuel, is a steal.

 

[AggieMike88]

Considering all that, a machine that literally flies, for $100-$150/hr including fuel, is a steal.

Which is why I love the club I am part of (and yes, I'm bragging a bit)

1975 Cessna 182, $110/hr wet on tach hours
1966 Bonanza V35, $130/hr wet on tach hours​

 

[Dan Thomas]

50-60 is still a joke.

Anything that requires a type should start at six figures.

Wages are market-driven.

1.If some guy will work for less than you, and has the same qualifications and experience, he will get the job.
2.If there really is a looming need for hundreds of thousands of pilots, and fewer are taking flight lessons, those few will be able to dictate their remuneration as the pilot shortage gets acute.
3. If the shortage of pilots gets bad enough, or the available pilots are the sort that let the airplane get way ahead of them and crash, the manufacturers of airliners will expedite the development and certification of pilotless aircraft. And that will be the end of airline pilot jobs, folks.

There's also a developing shortage of aircraft mechanics. Fewer young people are entering the trades, preferring to become lawyers or something instead. One of these days the mechanics will make more than the lawyers just because there are so few of them, and the development of the self-inspecting and self-fixing airplane is a long way off.


And, of course, the pay will skyrocket now that I'm retired.

 

[James331]

Wages are market-driven.

1.If some guy will work for less than you, and has the same qualifications and experience, he will get the job.
2.If there really is a looming need for hundreds of thousands of pilots, and fewer are taking flight lessons, those few will be able to dictate their remuneration as the pilot shortage gets acute.
3. If the shortage of pilots gets bad enough, or the available pilots are the sort that let the airplane get way ahead of them and crash, the manufacturers of airliners will expedite the development and certification of pilotless aircraft. And that will be the end of airline pilot jobs, folks.

There's also a developing shortage of aircraft mechanics. Fewer young people are entering the trades, preferring to become lawyers or something instead. One of these days the mechanics will make more than the lawyers just because there are so few of them, and the development of the self-inspecting and self-fixing airplane is a long way off.


And, of course, the pay will skyrocket now that I'm retired.

True, and there is no shortage of qualified pilots, just a shortage of pilots willing to work fly multi million dollar planes for peanuts.

 

[AggieMike88]

just a shortage of pilots willing to work fly multi million dollar planes for peanuts

Guess I'll remove SWA from my list of eventual employers.....

https://www.npr.org/2018/07/10/627681758/southwest-airlines-says-it-will-stop-serving-peanuts

 

[Z06_Mir]

hmmmm.... doing some "dirt math", if each airplane is billed out at $100 dry, each airplane needs to have 438 billable flying hours during the year just to cover this expense.

You're not too far off, though some aircraft have a higher cost-per-hour in relationship to insurance. I forgot to mention that $35,000 premium includes a 7th aircraft that we use on leaseback, but the owner pays the insurance to the tune of about $4,00 a year, so my cost is *just* $31,000. The 310 and the 182RG obviously are at the top of the list, but the highest cost airplane to insure that I own is my 172M. It's baffling. But the underwriters do what they want, and if they want to charge $5,000 and change for a 172M I either gotta pay it or I gotta get rid of the airplane. The 172 used to be my most profitable airplane, but with these new rates it's now my least profitable. I did end up pulling the 310 and the 182RG off of instructional policies for now since I have no students in them (put them on a normal P&B policy) to save some coin.

I am always happy to discuss the nitty gritty of finances with anyone interested, especially my students. I think it's important to know where your money is going and a properly insured flight school should be proud of that fact.

 

[AggieMike88]

insurance to the tune of about $4,00 a year

Four dollars a year??? Now that's such a good rate, we all should be calling his insurance agent!!!! /snark

 

[Sinistar]

I am new here but ive always liked the idea of community forums because there is no better resource then a group of like minded people who share the same passion when looking for guidance.
To start I'm not a pilot yet.. I havent even taken an intro flight yet but I have done a lot of ground school classes in preparation for actual flight training. But there in lies the problem getting flight training the cost and challenge of find the school thats both affordable and right for me.
I have been searching now for sometime for the right school to achieve my first goal of many which is to earn my private pilots certificate, in my search I even put up a post looking for a independent CFI because a pilot in a FBO made a recommendation to me regarding it. The post received mixed feed back some supportive some negative but nowl real leads.
The problem I have like many people is budget, I had no illusions going into this that school would be cheap but I promised my family I would do my best to keep the cost down as much as possible. I started with getting as much ground school as I could with the hopes that if I had a good,knowledge and understanding of the concepts and material when it came to the practice application in the plane I would be ahead of the game keeping the amount of hours need down as much as possible the next was shopping,around for the student pilot supplies also knocking the out of pocket expenses down. But now I'm at the phase of training the part where I got bite the bullet an spend some real money in hopes down,the line it may one day pay off in the form of a career in aviation. Here's were the fusteration comes in.. The cost is high I understand the logistics of it but don't agree full heartedly that it has to be that way.. First off the number one thing I keep hearing during my research is "the world is in desperate need of new pilots" and "there's a pilot shortage"... But I gotta say if there is its not because there aren't average people out there wanting a career as a pilot, in fact there is tons of people that would love to fill those spots its just for the average working class person the cost of becoming a pilot and working the way up the ladder with hours of training and flight time is out of reach with out a huge financial strain.
If the cost was even 1/4 less the average cost it is today id be willing to bet that there would be at least 50 precent increase in the yearly new entry students applying to earn there private pilots license and then at least attempting to continue on torwards commercial pilot.
I've read a lot of debates regarding the cost of training the responses are always the same either someone cant afford it and they are told to work harder save up and one day they can afford there dreams .. Or my personal behated one which is if you can't afford it, it isn't for you... Let me just say when I hear that I want to reach threw the computer and smack someone, aviation isnt supposed to be some snooty country club where the members want to keep the poor out .. When I hear those words I immediately know those people aren't the ones who are gonna be the next commercial airline pilots of the future.

If the industry catered to the consumer instead of raising the costs expecting people to be able to meet them it would be doing much much better in all ways instructors might be able to actually pay the bills with there earnings and FBOs would do more buisness, manufacturers would make more money selling planes, airports would also make more profit housing planes, Every one would do better for it.

I know I'm ranting but I'm fusterated I researched the average yearly cost of maintaining a cessna 172 and I believe if an instructor own his airplane and the student only had to pay half the cost lets say about 100 bucks an hour the instructor would make money be able to fuel up his plane and insure and maintain it with out issue. I know some of you are thinking this guys full of crap but think about it a little if when you were a student, You could get twice the amount of training as you could for the price you paid for the hour youd be willing to shell out more because you were earning your time faster thus the instructor is getting paid more each lesson because the student is spending more.

Guys maybe its only me who dreams of a world were there will be lower costs and more resources for people wanting to train for there pilots cert but unless we figure something out we will always face the same issues and the economy is only gonna get worse thus harder for people to become pilots

@Jeremy A Brito, aviation is not cheap. Its fine to rant. Others have given you great advice on reducing costs. However, keep the following in mind.

You have done all the ground work you can (good!). You're doing everything you can up front to keep the flight time (and therefore costs) to a minimum (good). But i also read in your post a expectation that these up front efforts will reduce flight training times. This is where many a pilot gets seriously letdown. Lets say learning to land ends up taking 10hrs more than planned...ouch, another $1700 more than you expected. Or your CFI runs off to the airlines and you incur a 10hr reset, ouch another $1700. Or you run out of funds part way, have to take a break and when you resume it costs you another $2300 to get caught up again. Then theres the rental plane going down for engine overhaul. In all of those cases it costs you more than you expected.

Then theres the less common but mega frustrating case. Your CFI (and the next and next) just dont think you are or ever will be cut out to solo around the patch or solo off cross country. In other words youve spent $8000 or $11000 and youre not pilot material. I saw two of the cases while i was training. Tbe hours and $$$$ they incurred was unbelievable. Gotta given credit for not quitting.

For someone like yourself with an expectation to finish at near minimums, you are setting yourself up for big possible letdown. And that pressure can lead to a sense of urgency about the time youll need patience and $$$$ for the spot you are hung up at.

My reccomendation for you is to plan for 75hrs to earn your PPL and around 18hrs or so to solo. Plus an additional 10hrs banked away for a possible reset for switching instructors, etc.

Oh yeah, owning your plane for training will not save you as much as you think.

Now i wonder why i learned......because its awesome and worth it

 

[eman1200]

Which is why I love the club I am part of (and yes, I'm bragging a bit)

1975 Cessna 182, $110/hr wet on tach hours
1966 Bonanza V35, $130/hr wet on tach hours​

You don’t have monthly dues that you pay whether you fly or not?

 

[Ravioli]

You don’t have monthly dues that you pay whether you fly or not?

He left out the dues and approximate buy-in.

I guess it's fair to leave out the buy-in in some cases. i know I sold my share [of a different club] at $1500 profit. But one should calculate the fixed cost impact of the dues. I was paying $320/mo and flew ~120 hours/yr so I added ~$32/hr to my cost. [I'm not married so i am allowed to calculate my costs ]

 

[sarangan]

@Jeremy A Brito, aviation is not cheap. Its fine to rant. Others have given you great advice on reducing costs. However, keep the following in mind.

You have done all the ground work you can (good!). You're doing everything you can up front to keep the flight time (and therefore costs) to a minimum (good). But i also read in your post a expectation that these up front efforts will reduce flight training times. This is where many a pilot gets seriously letdown. Lets say learning to land ends up taking 10hrs more than planned...ouch, another $1700 more than you expected. Or your CFI runs off to the airlines and you incur a 10hr reset, ouch another $1700. Or you run out of funds part way, have to take a break and when you resume it costs you another $2300 to get caught up again. Then theres the rental plane going down for engine overhaul. In all of those cases it costs you more than you expected.

Then theres the less common but mega frustrating case. Your CFI (and the next and next) just dont think you are or ever will be cut out to solo around the patch or solo off cross country. In other words youve spent $8000 or $11000 and youre not pilot material. I saw two of the cases while i was training. Tbe hours and $$$$ they incurred was unbelievable. Gotta given credit for not quitting.

For someone like yourself with an expectation to finish at near minimums, you are setting yourself up for big possible letdown. And that pressure can lead to a sense of urgency about the time youll need patience and $$$$ for the spot you are hung up at.

My reccomendation for you is to plan for 75hrs to earn your PPL and around 18hrs or so to solo. Plus an additional 10hrs banked away for a possible reset for switching instructors, etc.

Oh yeah, owning your plane for training will not save you as much as you think.

Now i wonder why i learned......because its awesome and worth it

This is great advice. Flying is not something that requires great intellect, or great physical strength, or even great amounts of money. It just requires commitment and persistence. You can attempt to minimize cost by preparing ahead of time, but whether or not it will yield results as expected is not within your control.

 

[Dan Thomas]

This is great advice. Flying is not something that requires great intellect, or great physical strength, or even great amounts of money. It just requires commitment and persistence. You can attempt to minimize cost by preparing ahead of time, but whether or not it will yield results as expected is not within your control.

Flying also requires a good attitude toward learning. There are many who have the idea that they already know it all, and the instructor has to spend time demonstrating to them that they don't. There are some that will cut as many corners as they can to save a few bucks: they'll take off as soon as they can and the warmup/runup gets shorted. Bad for the engine, bad for the pilot, bad for safety. They'll approach fast and land long so the taxi time is minimized. All of that (and that's not nearly all they can try to save bucks) leads to some really bad habits and poor airmanship, and it shows up in a job interview and flight check, and they're out.

A review and understanding of the Five Hazardous Attitudes can be a lifesaver. http://aviationknowledge.wikidot.com/sop:hazardous-attitudes

And so can this: https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviat...5494.htm#part-i-learning-and-learning-factors
Scroll down to "Student Progress" and "Individual Differences." Or just read the whole thing. It's enlightening.

 

[AggieMike88]

You don’t have monthly dues that you pay whether you fly or not?

Monthly dues are $300. For a 16 member equity group, it covers all of the operational items and a bit more such as avionics upgrades and other big ticket items. But in my view, this is cheep compared to monthly out of pocket if I was sole owner.

I bought in when the group had just 12 members. So the cost of my share was very low. Now we are full up and have been for several years. If I was to sell and get the number I want, I would see a 3.5x profit.

 

[James331]

...I believe if an instructor own his airplane and the student only had to pay half the cost lets say about 100 bucks an hour the instructor would make money be able to fuel up his plane and insure and maintain it with out issue....

You’re willing to pay half the COST? How nice of you! lol


Sooooo presuming that worked, why would I want to spend my time, put time on my plane, just to break even to train you?


Sorry, but most here busted their butts to be able to afford to fly, or to get into the industry, I made a great amount of sacrifice myself to get where I am at as a ATP/CFI, and thinking I should DONATE my time for YOU, sorry guy but frankly I have better things to do.


It’s VERY selfish to say the whole industry should change FOR YOU, it’s already VERY hard to even survive as a full time CFI or flight school owner, and you come here and say they should just be able to cover their expenses?

No money to pay to put food on their table, to put clothes on their kids backs, to enjoy life a little, they should all sacrifice all of that so Jeremy can learn how to fly?


Frankly I think learning how to fly is the least of your worries in life, as far as things you need to learn are concerned.

 

[mizer2167]

I don't think that flight schools and instructors are rolling in dough or there'd be a lot more of them and their planes would be in better shape.

That said, there's no reason you need to train in a 172, unless you can't fit with an instructor in a 150.

If one were serious and determined, it'd be possible to buy a 2-seater like the 150 and with good luck on maintenance, get (most of) your hours done at ~5 GPH for a buy-in of ~$15K. Since if you can fog a mirror you can get credit these days, even someone with little to no capital can probably find a way to borrow what they need to get going. Then, you can get an instructor independent of a flight school at a less expensive cash rate, usually.

Still, I think when I was doing my PPL, the actual dry rate for the plane was <40% of my total costs...

 

[Clip4]

[

I am new here but ive always liked the idea of community forums because there is no better resource then a group of like minded people who share the same passion when looking for guidance.
To start I'm not a pilot yet.. I havent even taken an intro flight yet but I have done a lot of ground school classes in preparation for actual flight training. But there in lies the problem getting flight training the cost and challenge of find the school thats both affordable and right for me.
I have been searching now for sometime for the right school to achieve my first goal of many which is to earn my private pilots certificate, in my search I even put up a post looking for a independent CFI because a pilot in a FBO made a recommendation to me regarding it. The post received mixed feed back some supportive some negative but nowl real leads.
The problem I have like many people is budget, I had no illusions going into this that school would be cheap but I promised my family I would do my best to keep the cost down as much as possible. I started with getting as much ground school as I could with the hopes that if I had a good,knowledge and understanding of the concepts and material when it came to the practice application in the plane I would be ahead of the game keeping the amount of hours need down as much as possible the next was shopping,around for the student pilot supplies also knocking the out of pocket expenses down. But now I'm at the phase of training the part where I got bite the bullet an spend some real money in hopes down,the line it may one day pay off in the form of a career in aviation. Here's were the fusteration comes in.. The cost is high I understand the logistics of it but don't agree full heartedly that it has to be that way.. First off the number one thing I keep hearing during my research is "the world is in desperate need of new pilots" and "there's a pilot shortage"... But I gotta say if there is its not because there aren't average people out there wanting a career as a pilot, in fact there is tons of people that would love to fill those spots its just for the average working class person the cost of becoming a pilot and working the way up the ladder with hours of training and flight time is out of reach with out a huge financial strain.
If the cost was even 1/4 less the average cost it is today id be willing to bet that there would be at least 50 precent increase in the yearly new entry students applying to earn there private pilots license and then at least attempting to continue on torwards commercial pilot.
I've read a lot of debates regarding the cost of training the responses are always the same either someone cant afford it and they are told to work harder save up and one day they can afford there dreams .. Or my personal behated one which is if you can't afford it, it isn't for you... Let me just say when I hear that I want to reach threw the computer and smack someone, aviation isnt supposed to be some snooty country club where the members want to keep the poor out .. When I hear those words I immediately know those people aren't the ones who are gonna be the next commercial airline pilots of the future.

If the industry catered to the consumer instead of raising the costs expecting people to be able to meet them it would be doing much much better in all ways instructors might be able to actually pay the bills with there earnings and FBOs would do more buisness, manufacturers would make more money selling planes, airports would also make more profit housing planes, Every one would do better for it.

I know I'm ranting but I'm fusterated I researched the average yearly cost of maintaining a cessna 172 and I believe if an instructor own his airplane and the student only had to pay half the cost lets say about 100 bucks an hour the instructor would make money be able to fuel up his plane and insure and maintain it with out issue. I know some of you are thinking this guys full of crap but think about it a little if when you were a student, You could get twice the amount of training as you could for the price you paid for the hour youd be willing to shell out more because you were earning your time faster thus the instructor is getting paid more each lesson because the student is spending more.

Guys maybe its only me who dreams of a world were there will be lower costs and more resources for people wanting to train for there pilots cert but unless we figure something out we will always face the same issues and the economy is only gonna get worse thus harder for people to become pilots

Violins playing in the background. Do you know you will pay more for a voice, golf, or tennis lesson than you will pay a CFI?

 

[Jeremy A Brito]

You’re willing to pay half the COST? How nice of you! lol


Sooooo presuming that worked, why would I want to spend my time, put time on my plane, just to break even to train you?


Sorry, but most here busted their butts to be able to afford to fly, or to get into the industry, I made a great amount of sacrifice myself to get where I am at as a ATP/CFI, and thinking I should DONATE my time for YOU, sorry guy but frankly I have better things to do.


It’s VERY selfish to say the whole industry should change FOR YOU, it’s already VERY hard to even survive as a full time CFI or flight school owner, and you come here and say they should just be able to cover their expenses?

No money to pay to put food on their table, to put clothes on their kids backs, to enjoy life a little, they should all sacrifice all of that so Jeremy can learn how to fly?


Frankly I think learning how to fly is the least of your worries in life, as far as things you need to learn are concerned.

Wow buddy you qouted a part of a much longer conversation and at that went off the rails no one said anything about just for me .. No one said anything about donating time and no one said anything about lossing money.. It was a conversation about the cost in general for everyone learn to read before you speak. It seems very much to me that once the cost of training is brought up you get two kinds of people the ones who freak out and get upset you even questioned it and the others that feel the same struggle, what bothers me the most about the topic is that regardless of side the main ending is that's just how it is that's how its gonna be its never going to change.
James I'm sorry you got so worked up over this discussion I ment it to be civil I understand people have to eat and make money and pay for things but in a world were we have found a way to reduce the cost of most things to make a competitive market, aviation seems to be in a world of its own except for the cost of riding on a airliner.
James try not to get to worked up its not good for the health and attacking in conversation doesn't open it up for actually progress.

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk

 

[Clip4]

Wow buddy you qouted a part of a much longer conversation and at that went off the rails no one said anything about just for me .. No one said anything about donating time and no one said anything about lossing money.. It was a conversation about the cost in general for everyone learn to read before you speak. It seems very much to me that once the cost of training is brought up you get two kinds of people the ones who freak out and get upset you even questioned it and the others that feel the same struggle, what bothers me the most about the topic is that regardless of side the main ending is that's just how it is that's how its gonna be its never going to change.
James I'm sorry you got so worked up over this discussion I ment it to be civil I understand people have to eat and make money and pay for things but in a world were we have found a way to reduce the cost of most things to make a competitive market, aviation seems to be in a world of its own except for the cost of riding on a airliner.
James try not to get to worked up its not good for the health and attacking in conversation doesn't open it up for actually progress.

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk

No one got worked up here, but the capitalist system and regulations establish the costs and profit margins. If the industry cut prices by 1/4 as you suggest, you would have nowhere to train.

 

[LongRoadBob]

II don't know if this helps at all but a couple of points to the OP. I haven't read further than the original post at this point.

I'm 62 and working towards my PPL. I have had to learn to stop beating myself up for my stupidity as a younger man that I looked at the total price of learning to fly as if I needed it now. I was broke, really broke, and really couldn't even afford lessons "here and there" but later I could and didn't realize it. It's not like I had to plunk down the whole ball of wax as soon as I said "I'm ready". I could have (though it isn't optimal) paid as I went. Even if it was less frequent, it still would be something.

Also, it doesn't matter if you or I think it should be different, it is what it is. You can surely find ways to cut costs, but you won't ever get there waiting until it is fixed how we would like it. My best advice, save up and take a discovery flight, see what you think.

Also, a wise man once told me, I had moved to Norway to live, and my boss (if I had known how hard it was to do this, I wouldn't have agreed, but luckily I didn't know) had given me one free month in a business apt. To find a place to live, after that nada for housing. In December (nothing happens in Norway in December) and I was struggling to find "the right" place that I could afford. He told me "stop looking for perfect. You can always MOVE again, it isn't for the rest of your life" and that helped me enormously. Just get on with it, work it out later.

And for the record, I chose a flying club, and as I go I see problems with availability of both the one rental plane I can use, and also instructors for when I can fly. So I, looking into another club. Good chance it will be better. I won't lose what I learned, though I will be evaluated (which is fine, I want that) at the new club and go from there.

My advice, take a discovery flight, start there. I did a few flights and got instruction but because I'm American and the exam is in Norwegian, I needed to stop flying and prepare then take the exam. I passed. Did well even. So after that I can concentrate on just flying....and passing my MED.

I wish you luck, if you try a flight and find you love it as much as I do, hopefully you can figure out and it will get the ball rolling for you!

My best advice, the folks here have helped me enormously. Sometimes you get dinged, but that too cn be a help. Mainly I've gotten tons of great, free advice here.

From my own experience (again, I'm in Norway but this may be universal) you might have to learn to "fight" (I.e plan ahead) to book flights, experience a lot of downtime if your plane is out of service because of maintenance, be able to take criticism, that may even seem unfair (such as an instructor ragging on you for something that wasn't discussed before, or being sharp with you if he needs to) and weather cancellations. I found you have to get the rythm of the seasons, like here in November, it can sometimes be the whole month is a write off...fog and visibility cancelling needed flights.

Be ready for some frustration. At lest cancelled flights don't cost you though

But really, go up, fly with an instructor...see what you think.

 

[James331]

Wow buddy you qouted a part of a much longer conversation and at that went off the rails no one said anything about just for me .. No one said anything about donating time and no one said anything about lossing money.. It was a conversation about the cost in general for everyone learn to read before you speak. It seems very much to me that once the cost of training is brought up you get two kinds of people the ones who freak out and get upset you even questioned it and the others that feel the same struggle, what bothers me the most about the topic is that regardless of side the main ending is that's just how it is that's how its gonna be its never going to change.
James I'm sorry you got so worked up over this discussion I ment it to be civil I understand people have to eat and make money and pay for things but in a world were we have found a way to reduce the cost of most things to make a competitive market, aviation seems to be in a world of its own except for the cost of riding on a airliner.
James try not to get to worked up its not good for the health and attacking in conversation doesn't open it up for actually progress.

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk

Worked up? I could care less about you, win the lotto or get hit by a bus and I’ll still finish this here beer just the same.

That said your comment was so very entitled and poorly thought out, I almost thought you were trolling us.

 

[LongRoadBob]

This is great advice. Flying is not something that requires great intellect, or great physical strength, or even great amounts of money. It just requires commitment and persistence. You can attempt to minimize cost by preparing ahead of time, but whether or not it will yield results as expected is not within your control.

This also is great advice.

It hurts me a little that you added "doesn't require great intellect" as I think...um...well, I struggled to learn. Maybe I'm making your point and I suspect you and most here are smarter than me...then again I did well on my exams (again proving your point).

It does take logical thinking, and ability to understand a thing that is in no way the natural state of man. Theory and passing exams are just an indication that you might be an ok pilot, but the rest is up to us. I'm still working out exactly what the plane is doing when I do stalls, beside the obvious. I've done them now, and try to put it al together. I liked them a lot.

It also requires skills that I did not know were needed (my dad was a pilot, and I grew up as a passenger with him but we never talked about it in depth and now he is gone) and that are pretty wide in scope. Like all the regs and legalize...and troubleshooting, if problems come up, and instinct, and yeah...you know.

But I totally agree with you. I just wish I had started earlier. It takes dedication, as you say.

I have to add. When I was around 32 years old and had been bouncing around from bad job to bad job, I always loved electronics and finally went to a technical school to earn a degree. It cost a lot. I loved learning electronics. In my original class I think about 60% of students that started with me dropped out by the time I graduated. I noticed that those that dropped out almost all we the ones that during breaks when we would shoot the breeze talked only about "making the big bucks". Almost to a person the folks that graduated with me were actually honestly interested in learning electronics and enjoyed the challenge of new concepts.

Learning to fly seems similar to that for me. It's not for the future reward, it's for the joy of flying. Now.

 

[Brad Smith]

Plane rentals don't seem so expensive when you consider what they charge for renting a 2 person jet ski at tahoesports.com (Lake Tahoe):

Standard:
Half Day(4 Hours) – $387
Full Day (8 Hours) – $774

Supercharged:
Half Day (4 Hours) – $477
Full Day (8 Hours) - $954

Makes that old Cherokee seem like quite a deal! (Check out their website to see what it cost to rent a boat)

 

[exncsurfer]

You’re willing to pay half the COST? How nice of you! lol


Sooooo presuming that worked, why would I want to spend my time, put time on my plane, just to break even to train you?


Sorry, but most here busted their butts to be able to afford to fly, or to get into the industry, I made a great amount of sacrifice myself to get where I am at as a ATP/CFI, and thinking I should DONATE my time for YOU, sorry guy but frankly I have better things to do.


It’s VERY selfish to say the whole industry should change FOR YOU, it’s already VERY hard to even survive as a full time CFI or flight school owner, and you come here and say they should just be able to cover their expenses?

No money to pay to put food on their table, to put clothes on their kids backs, to enjoy life a little, they should all sacrifice all of that so Jeremy can learn how to fly?


Frankly I think learning how to fly is the least of your worries in life, as far as things you need to learn are concerned.

I thought he was saying 'half the cost' as compared to the typical flight school + CFI price, comparing that to a CFI/Owner and that if he charged half of what the flight school would for plane + CFI, at $100/hr the CFI could make money. Based on what clubs charge for 172's probably not realistic.

Or, maybe I read it wrong. It wasn't really clear, half of what cost?

 

[Zeldman]

Pilots are the worst. We don’t need significant others in our lives... we are pretty good at ****ing ourselves.

Ain't that the truth.!!

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

People dont think flying is expensive like that, but it is.

If I ever added up what it cost to fly my plane, I would break into a cold sweat and stop flying immediately!

Just Say No to calculators.

 

[Dan Thomas]

....I understand people have to eat and make money and pay for things but in a world were we have found a way to reduce the cost of most things to make a competitive market, aviation seems to be in a world of its own except for the cost of riding on a airliner.

Aviation really IS in a world of its own. It costs many millions and takes a lot of time to even get permission to produce an airplane, or parts for airplanes. Regulations are strict, demanding much of pilots and mechanics and everyone else involved. Flying is terribly unforgiving of carelessness or complacency or overconfidence; its much easier to kill yourself in an airplane than in a car, and the regulations reflect that. A simple thing like an engine failure means a lot worse things than coasting to the side of the road. Flying into bad weather doesn't let you pull over and wait it out. A minor collision with another airplane is usually fatal for everyone. So we have an awful lot of laws to know and comply with, an awful lot of things to study and pass exams on, and we have to have the airplane properly cared for. It all adds up mighty quick, and there is no way around it other than winning the lottery or have a rich uncle pay for it all. If you wait for such improbable sources of money, or for the costs to come down to what you think are reasonable, you will sit around moaning about it until you're too old, while others see the reality rather than the fantasy, get a job, earn the money, pay the costs, and get the flying career.

Airliners need to be pretty much completely full for the airline to make any money. If even 10% of the seats are empty, there's trouble. It's a really marginal business. The only reason most of us can afford an airline ticket is due to the deregulation that results in low pay for pilots, for instance. And it has sometimes resulted in terrible accidents. The sheer volumes of people travelling by air helps to keep the costs down. The world of small airplanes is TOTALLY different; only about one in 500 people in the US or Canada hold a pilot license of any sort. There are very few small airplanes relative to the population. There is no comparison in the economics of the two types of flying.

 

[Silvaire]

...Guys maybe its only me who dreams of a world were there will be lower costs and more resources for people wanting to train for there pilots cert but unless we figure something out we will always face the same issues and the economy is only gonna get worse thus harder for people to become pilots

Well good luck with that dream. When I started out the J3 was eight bucks an hour, the instructor three and I couldn't afford it then either but if you REALLY want something...

 

[sarangan]

This also is great advice.

It hurts me a little that you added "doesn't require great intellect" as I think...um...well, I struggled to learn. Maybe I'm making your point and I suspect you and most here are smarter than me...then again I did well on my exams (again proving your point).

It does take logical thinking, and ability to understand a thing that is in no way the natural state of man. Theory and passing exams are just an indication that you might be an ok pilot, but the rest is up to us. I'm still working out exactly what the plane is doing when I do stalls, beside the obvious. I've done them now, and try to put it al together. I liked them a lot.

What I meant was that flying does not require any type of analytical skill like one would need for an advanced degree in science or math. You don't need high GRE scores, or any score at all, or even an undergraduate degree. I don't mean this as an insult, but most of the theory one needs to learn for being a pilot is really at the high school level.

However, that doesn't mean aviation is easy. Humans were not designed to fly, so it is supposed to be difficult and unnatural. I don't believe anyone who says flying comes naturally to them.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Well good luck with that dream. When I started out the J3 was eight bucks an hour, the instructor three and I couldn't afford it then either but if you REALLY want something...

When I started, a 172 cost me $19 per hour and the instructor $5, coming to about the same money as I made in a day's work as a young guy. Things really haven't changed all that much in 45 years.

 

[James331]

If I ever added up what it cost to fly my plane, I would break into a cold sweat and stop flying immediately!

Just Say No to calculators.

No one likes a quitter

 

[Jeremy A Brito]

Seems to be some miscommunication about the reason for this whole thread. Originally it was ment just as a discussion regarding the costs of the whole process if it could be cheaper how it could be cheaper and,everything in the middle. But it seems to have turned into OP is an asshat for even suggesting the thought of cheaper programs for new pilots as if the mere mention of wishing we could find a way to make it cheaper was blasphemy. If we look back at my original post I clearly said,I was getting ready to bite the bullet and spend some real money on lessons.. Nothing about holding out for a miracle or low balling a CFI , I did have ever say in my eyes from what I knew at the time it seemed high and I wondered why. With out a great deal of knowledge I made a blanket statement of my understanding of the economics, which seemed to really get some people in a tissy. For that I apologize how ever I did follow up a few comments later with I appreciated the better understanding,of the break down of costs involved , must have been over looked by some.
Truth is some of you have been helpful while others not so much, ya ive got a lot to learn about the economics of aviation I said as much in the begging and hemse was the idea of the discussion, but this changed from a discussion to OP is trying to cause unrest by asking for lower costs and cheaper training as if I was the only person ever to try and find a cheaper way of doing something. I never once mentioned wanting the system to change to me but I did mention wishing it were different in general I listen to a lot of podcasts about general aviation and the decline in buisness and pilots because of the high expense all round and the numerous large scale aviation companies looking for ways to lower costs to increase business its a common theme regardless of what the grouping is.
For those that were helpful thanks for those that I upset with the discussion sorry

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk

 

[James331]

Seems to be some miscommunication about the reason for this whole thread. Originally it was ment just as a discussion regarding the costs of the whole process if it could be cheaper how it could be cheaper and,everything in the middle. But it seems to have turned into OP is an asshat for even suggesting the thought of cheaper programs for new pilots as if the mere mention of wishing we could find a way to make it cheaper was blasphemy. If we look back at my original post I clearly said,I was getting ready to bite the bullet and spend some real money on lessons.. Nothing about holding out for a miracle or low balling a CFI , I did have ever say in my eyes from what I knew at the time it seemed high and I wondered why. With out a great deal of knowledge I made a blanket statement of my understanding of the economics, which seemed to really get some people in a tissy. For that I apologize how ever I did follow up a few comments later with I appreciated the better understanding,of the break down of costs involved , must have been over looked by some.
Truth is some of you have been helpful while others not so much, ya ive got a lot to learn about the economics of aviation I said as much in the begging and hemse was the idea of the discussion, but this changed from a discussion to OP is trying to cause unrest by asking for lower costs and cheaper training as if I was the only person ever to try and find a cheaper way of doing something. I never once mentioned wanting the system to change to me but I did mention wishing it were different in general I listen to a lot of podcasts about general aviation and the decline in buisness and pilots because of the high expense all round and the numerous large scale aviation companies looking for ways to lower costs to increase business its a common theme regardless of what the grouping is.
For those that were helpful thanks for those that I upset with the discussion sorry

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk

Re read your first post, I’ll stick with my statement

 

[Sinistar]

Well, I would think from the airlines pov, they would love an over abundance of qualified pilots. So you would think they would get involved but it seems their main incentive is on the back end of training, when you're a sure thing with all the ratings, endorsements and a CPL. Who can blame them, until you have that and there's another resume in the pile they're good to go.

Now what if 20 wannabe pilots got together, bought a few planes and hired a small pool of CFI...maybe that group approach would cut costs...but not as much as one would think. And when 65% back out (I guessed at that number) the whole thing falls apart.

It's too bad the airlines don't offer small hourly rate to their mandatory retired ATPs to CFI afterwards. I suspect a huge number of them are CFIs. And you'd have actual airline pilots teaching students vs CFI'S who haven't been to the airlines yet.

Just thinking out loud, probably crazy.

 

[LongRoadBob]

What I meant was that flying does not require any type of analytical skill like one would need for an advanced degree in science or math. You don't need high GRE scores, or any score at all, or even an undergraduate degree. I don't mean this as an insult, but most of the theory one needs to learn for being a pilot is really at the high school level.

However, that doesn't mean aviation is easy. Humans were not designed to fly, so it is supposed to be difficult and unnatural. I don't believe anyone who says flying comes naturally to them.

I was just kidding a little about hurt feelings, sorry I wasn't clearer on it. Totally agree with your posts on this.
That said, it is a lot to learn, when one learns to fly. I was surprised at the breadth of knowledge expected.
But it is a lot of fun to learn, and to fly.

 

[Silvaire]

Depending on how you go about it buying your own plane to train in can save you money because they basically don't lose any value so you can sell it and get that money back in the end.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Seems to be some miscommunication about the reason for this whole thread. Originally it was ment just as a discussion regarding the costs of the whole process if it could be cheaper how it could be cheaper and,everything in the middle. But it seems to have turned into OP is an asshat for even suggesting the thought of cheaper programs for new pilots as if the mere mention of wishing we could find a way to make it cheaper was blasphemy.

Your statements appeared to indicate that you figured nobody was trying to reduce the cost of flying and flight training. If you indeed were suggesting that, it's a completely unreasonable assumption. There are many pilots--maybe most pilots--who cannot afford to fly nearly as often as they'd like. A big percentage of pilots would love to own an airplane but cannot. There are millions that would love to fly; many start and quit due to the cost. Cost has been studied and solutions tried in many, many ways; that is how a free market economy works.

The newbie who has not researched the situation and studied the history of flying will be unaware of all that, and will lament the (perceived) lack of effort toward reducing the costs. I think that is what is bugging folks here.

Instead, one should be grateful that one even has the opportunity to learn to fly. Most of the rest of the world population can only dream of it. Flying will never, ever be a reality for them. Not even in an airliner. We in the most developed countries have far more than we realize.

 

[James331]

Your statements appeared to indicate that you figured nobody was trying to reduce the cost of flying and flight training. If you indeed were suggesting that, it's a completely unreasonable assumption. There are many pilots--maybe most pilots--who cannot afford to fly nearly as often as they'd like. A big percentage of pilots would love to own an airplane but cannot. There are millions that would love to fly; many start and quit due to the cost. Cost has been studied and solutions tried in many, many ways; that is how a free market economy works.

The newbie who has not researched the situation and studied the history of flying will be unaware of all that, and will lament the (perceived) lack of effort toward reducing the costs. I think that is what is bugging folks here.

Instead, one should be grateful that one even has the opportunity to learn to fly. Most of the rest of the world population can only dream of it. Flying will never, ever be a reality for them. Not even in an airliner. We in the most developed countries have far more than we realize.

Or the other “developed counties” where the government makes it almost impossible for common people to fly.

 

[JCranford]

I think we missed the most important part of his post...

It’s ‘frustrated’, not ‘fusterated’

 

[murphey]

Depending on how you go about it buying your own plane to train in can save you money because they basically don't lose any value so you can sell it and get that money back in the end.

Don't bet on it. Overhaul an engine, and you've just eliminated any profit when selling the airplane.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Don't bet on it. Overhaul an engine, and you've just eliminated any profit when selling the airplane.

I have seen students buy an airplane to save money. The airplanes they could afford turned out to need so much expensive work that they saved nothing, and recouping all the costs was pretty much impossible.

Many buyers find that their first annual turns into an expensive headache. Never forget that you're buying something that someone doesn't want anymore, or couldn't afford to maintain it properly. In either case, money that should have been spent on it over the years was not spent, and you might have to spend it instead.