Venting some fusterations and possible ideas/solutions

J

Jeremy A Brito

Filing Flight Plan
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Nov 10, 2018
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Jbrito82
I am new here but ive always liked the idea of community forums because there is no better resource then a group of like minded people who share the same passion when looking for guidance.
To start I'm not a pilot yet.. I havent even taken an intro flight yet but I have done a lot of ground school classes in preparation for actual flight training. But there in lies the problem getting flight training the cost and challenge of find the school thats both affordable and right for me.
I have been searching now for sometime for the right school to achieve my first goal of many which is to earn my private pilots certificate, in my search I even put up a post looking for a independent CFI because a pilot in a FBO made a recommendation to me regarding it. The post received mixed feed back some supportive some negative but nowl real leads.
The problem I have like many people is budget, I had no illusions going into this that school would be cheap but I promised my family I would do my best to keep the cost down as much as possible. I started with getting as much ground school as I could with the hopes that if I had a good,knowledge and understanding of the concepts and material when it came to the practice application in the plane I would be ahead of the game keeping the amount of hours need down as much as possible the next was shopping,around for the student pilot supplies also knocking the out of pocket expenses down. But now I'm at the phase of training the part where I got bite the bullet an spend some real money in hopes down,the line it may one day pay off in the form of a career in aviation. Here's were the fusteration comes in.. The cost is high I understand the logistics of it but don't agree full heartedly that it has to be that way.. First off the number one thing I keep hearing during my research is "the world is in desperate need of new pilots" and "there's a pilot shortage"... But I gotta say if there is its not because there aren't average people out there wanting a career as a pilot, in fact there is tons of people that would love to fill those spots its just for the average working class person the cost of becoming a pilot and working the way up the ladder with hours of training and flight time is out of reach with out a huge financial strain.
If the cost was even 1/4 less the average cost it is today id be willing to bet that there would be at least 50 precent increase in the yearly new entry students applying to earn there private pilots license and then at least attempting to continue on torwards commercial pilot.
I've read a lot of debates regarding the cost of training the responses are always the same either someone cant afford it and they are told to work harder save up and one day they can afford there dreams .. Or my personal behated one which is if you can't afford it, it isn't for you... Let me just say when I hear that I want to reach threw the computer and smack someone, aviation isnt supposed to be some snooty country club where the members want to keep the poor out .. When I hear those words I immediately know those people aren't the ones who are gonna be the next commercial airline pilots of the future.

If the industry catered to the consumer instead of raising the costs expecting people to be able to meet them it would be doing much much better in all ways instructors might be able to actually pay the bills with there earnings and FBOs would do more buisness, manufacturers would make more money selling planes, airports would also make more profit housing planes, Every one would do better for it.

I know I'm ranting but I'm fusterated I researched the average yearly cost of maintaining a cessna 172 and I believe if an instructor own his airplane and the student only had to pay half the cost lets say about 100 bucks an hour the instructor would make money be able to fuel up his plane and insure and maintain it with out issue. I know some of you are thinking this guys full of crap but think about it a little if when you were a student, You could get twice the amount of training as you could for the price you paid for the hour youd be willing to shell out more because you were earning your time faster thus the instructor is getting paid more each lesson because the student is spending more.

Guys maybe its only me who dreams of a world were there will be lower costs and more resources for people wanting to train for there pilots cert but unless we figure something out we will always face the same issues and the economy is only gonna get worse thus harder for people to become pilots
 
The basic issue is the liability - translation: insurance and the lawyers. Very few of us here buy new. My cherokee is 50 yrs old and cost less than a new car.

Rental vs owning a C172 or similar entry-level airplane:
  • The company renting the airplane to you is paying 3-5 x insurance than I do.
  • The company renting the airplane to you is probably doing the 100 hr inspection 3-6 times a year where I do an annual once a year.
  • The company renting the airplane to you has more frequent maintenance to perform (and pay for) (at least I hope they do the maintenance!) than I do.
  • The company renting the airplane has overhead (liabililty, salaries, etc) that I don't have.
  • The company renting the airplane needs to make a profit or it won't be around very long.

One of the most effective ways to learn is to join a club - not a business that has the word "club" in it but a real club where the costs are shared and no one is making a profit.
 
I want to thank you guys for your feed back and I will kinda counter with some questions cause I'm learning a whole other side that makes more sense to why we pay so much but please dont think I'm just knocking the system I'm just trying to find a better way
 
You can go out and buy a used trainer,do home study ,and find a CFIs that agrees with your approach. Or find a club with an instructor. There are other options.
 
Flying has never, ever been cheap. It wasn't cheap 45 years ago when I learned to fly, either, and I had to scrimp a lot to do it. I have a Commercial ticket, was a flight instructor, spent a long time as an aircraft mechanic, and have owned my own airplane, and I can tell you that there are numerous valid reasons why flying isn't cheap and is never likely to be.

Becoming a doctor isn't cheap either. Any worthwhile career that has the potential of paying well is going to take some expensive training, and possibly working for peanuts to get the experience.

Once you start learning, and especially once you own an airplane and work alongside a mechanic, you will understand a whole lot more why things are the way they are.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Flying has never, ever been cheap. It wasn't cheap 45 years ago when I learned to fly, either, and I had to scrimp a lot to do it. I have a Commercial ticket, was a flight instructor, spent a long time as an aircraft mechanic, and have owned my own airplane, and I can tell you that there are numerous valid reasons why flying isn't cheap and is never likely to be.

Becoming a doctor isn't cheap either. Any worthwhile career that has the potential of paying well is going to take some expensive training, and possibly working for peanuts to get the experience.

Once you start learning, and especially once you own an airplane and work alongside a mechanic, you will understand a whole lot more why things are the way they are.
Click to expand...
I think though there should be more resources available such as student financial aid to help make it more affordable to be a student pilot. I know there are loans out there but they arent student loans in the traditional sense. For example I have the GI Bill which will pay for a portion of my advanced training but not my initial and even then the money I will get will only cover a small precent of the total cost.
I get there are costs involved with every aspect of the entire process I'm learning more each day, honestly my goal is to one day become an instructor my self cause I enjoy teaching but I hope that by the time I get there they have come up with away to make it more affordable so that its not just the few willing to take on enormous debt or lucky enough to have a huge source of funding. But if that doesnt happen call me a dreamer but I'd love to be able to come up with a model to make avaition accessible to everyone, even if it means teaching for free to make it happen personally for me id like to do that for veterans being one my self I understand what its like to come out and hunt for a career in a job market it with limited resources.

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk
 
Do what I did - join the military and let the taxpayer foot the bill. Came out with the ratings, flew with some great guys and gals, and did something that had a deeper meaning.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
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The road to an aviation career is a ladder, with "rungs" you have to climb up. But it's also a "pyramid" structure; by that I don't mean it's a scam, I mean that only a fraction of people from each lower rung advance to the next higher rung. Not all PP's go on to CP, not all CP's go on to ATP, etc. So if you're an airline (at the top of the ladder) and you're desperate for pilots from the rung just below you, what you do is throw your money at those top rungs of the ladder just below you, where proven candidates will be concentrated. You wouldn't throw your money at the bottom of the pyramid, where it'll be mostly wasted on people who you will never hire, who will stop happily at PP or quit even before that. From the point of view of an airline/employer, that would make no economic sense.
I'd love to see the costs and barriers to entry come down as much as anyone, but costs are what they are, as all the owners on this board can say... Personally, I wonder if the development of electric training aircraft will be the gamechanger that can bring costs down at the bottom of the pyramid.
 
murphey said:
The basic issue is the liability - translation: insurance and the lawyers. Very few of us here buy new. My cherokee is 50 yrs old and cost less than a new car.

Rental vs owning a C172 or similar entry-level airplane:
  • The company renting the airplane to you is paying 3-5 x insurance than I do.
  • The company renting the airplane to you is probably doing the 100 hr inspection 3-6 times a year where I do an annual once a year.
  • The company renting the airplane to you has more frequent maintenance to perform (and pay for) (at least I hope they do the maintenance!) than I do.
  • The company renting the airplane has overhead (liabililty, salaries, etc) that I don't have.
  • The company renting the airplane needs to make a profit or it won't be around very long.

One of the most effective ways to learn is to join a club - not a business that has the word "club" in it but a real club where the costs are shared and no one is making a profit.
Click to expand...
Correct....... go join a real flying CLUB, not a flight SCHOOL that has the word "Club" in its name. The quality of instruction you'll get in a club will be just as good as in a flight school, but the overall training cost will be lower because the club is not there to earn a profit---it exists to minimize the total cost of operating an airplane.
 
If you are looking for cheap you shouldn't be looking at 172's for training, find a place that has 152's or other 2 place planes that rent for almost 1/2 the cost. Find an independent cfi will likely be cheaper than a flight school. Can't find one you say, go to the local airports and ask who the instructors are. Call the local examiner and ask them who a good independent cfi is. Buying a plane can be the most cost effective path or it can set you very far behind the curve.

Find an FBO or club that has 2 seat airplanes and find an independent CFI. Unless you just flat out don't understand something I think a lot of ground school is a waste of money given today's online resources available to you. Don't buy expensive headsets, flight bags, digital flight computers, expensive knee boards, etc. I used an old bookbag, david clarks, clip board, and an E6B which has taken me from PPL to CSMEL.
 
Jeremy A Brito said:
I am new here but ive always liked the idea of community forums because there is no better resource then a group of like minded people who share the same passion when looking for guidance.
To start I'm not a pilot yet.. I havent even taken an intro flight yet but I have done a lot of ground school classes in preparation for actual flight training. But there in lies the problem getting flight training the cost and challenge of find the school thats both affordable and right for me.
I have been searching now for sometime for the right school to achieve my first goal of many which is to earn my private pilots certificate, in my search I even put up a post looking for a independent CFI because a pilot in a FBO made a recommendation to me regarding it. The post received mixed feed back some supportive some negative but nowl real leads.
The problem I have like many people is budget, I had no illusions going into this that school would be cheap but I promised my family I would do my best to keep the cost down as much as possible. I started with getting as much ground school as I could with the hopes that if I had a good,knowledge and understanding of the concepts and material when it came to the practice application in the plane I would be ahead of the game keeping the amount of hours need down as much as possible the next was shopping,around for the student pilot supplies also knocking the out of pocket expenses down. But now I'm at the phase of training the part where I got bite the bullet an spend some real money in hopes down,the line it may one day pay off in the form of a career in aviation. Here's were the fusteration comes in.. The cost is high I understand the logistics of it but don't agree full heartedly that it has to be that way.. First off the number one thing I keep hearing during my research is "the world is in desperate need of new pilots" and "there's a pilot shortage"... But I gotta say if there is its not because there aren't average people out there wanting a career as a pilot, in fact there is tons of people that would love to fill those spots its just for the average working class person the cost of becoming a pilot and working the way up the ladder with hours of training and flight time is out of reach with out a huge financial strain.
If the cost was even 1/4 less the average cost it is today id be willing to bet that there would be at least 50 precent increase in the yearly new entry students applying to earn there private pilots license and then at least attempting to continue on torwards commercial pilot.
I've read a lot of debates regarding the cost of training the responses are always the same either someone cant afford it and they are told to work harder save up and one day they can afford there dreams .. Or my personal behated one which is if you can't afford it, it isn't for you... Let me just say when I hear that I want to reach threw the computer and smack someone, aviation isnt supposed to be some snooty country club where the members want to keep the poor out .. When I hear those words I immediately know those people aren't the ones who are gonna be the next commercial airline pilots of the future.

If the industry catered to the consumer instead of raising the costs expecting people to be able to meet them it would be doing much much better in all ways instructors might be able to actually pay the bills with there earnings and FBOs would do more buisness, manufacturers would make more money selling planes, airports would also make more profit housing planes, Every one would do better for it.

I know I'm ranting but I'm fusterated I researched the average yearly cost of maintaining a cessna 172 and I believe if an instructor own his airplane and the student only had to pay half the cost lets say about 100 bucks an hour the instructor would make money be able to fuel up his plane and insure and maintain it with out issue. I know some of you are thinking this guys full of crap but think about it a little if when you were a student, You could get twice the amount of training as you could for the price you paid for the hour youd be willing to shell out more because you were earning your time faster thus the instructor is getting paid more each lesson because the student is spending more.

Guys maybe its only me who dreams of a world were there will be lower costs and more resources for people wanting to train for there pilots cert but unless we figure something out we will always face the same issues and the economy is only gonna get worse thus harder for people to become pilots
Click to expand...

I hear ya......we all do....... unfortunately flying airplanes is an expensive proposition, and it's not going to change. People who fly airplanes are passionate about flying, so they make sacrifices in other areas of their lives--- they don't buy new cars, they don't take expensive vacations, etc. Unless you are independently wealthy, choosing to fly airplanes becomes a decision based upon lifestyle compromises --- what pleasure will you derive from the activity at what cost? If the pleasure outweighs the cost (by cost I don't mean just financial, but overall lifestyle), then flying airplanes makes sense, and if the pleasure does not outweigh the cost, then it makes no sense to throw your money away on something that isn't worth it. I've had my pilot's license for 30 years, and over that period I've stopped and restarted flying several times.....one gap was about eight years wide where I didn't even look at an airplane. But here I am now, 56 years old, and I've decided to go for it and complete my commercial and multi engine rating, and go find a part time flying job so I can, if I'm lucky, finish out my working years as a real honest-to-god pilot. The salary will be a fraction of what I make now as an electronics engineer, but I don't care ------ I just want to fly airplanes.
 
I would definitely look into any local flying clubs. I have one locally that I need to eventually look into myself.

According to their web site, here's their specifics...

$100/mo. membership (reduced to $50 for any month you rent planes for 5 hours or more)
Piper Tomahawk (for PPL training) - $49/hr tach time, dry (not Hobbs)
Piper Cherokee 180 - $77/hr tach time, dry (IFR equipped)
Piper Cherokee 6/300 - $125/hr tach time, dry (IFR equipped)

They say they have CFIs they can recommend. I don't know enough to know if this particular club is a good deal for an aspiring pilot, but it is at least an option compared to going through a full fledged Flight School. Maybe your area has something similar.

Good luck.
 
Many people are leaving good jobs in other industries to become pilots. That's how you have to do it sometimes. You get into a good paying job until you can easily afford flight training. The one key is that you shouldn't start a family or buy expensive things like a house and stuff because some day you'll need to take a pay cut to make the leap and start down the professional pilot route. I think that's the part people don't want to hear. They dont want to know it may take years to achieve the goal.
 
Nsconductor said:
Do what I did - join the military and let the taxpayer foot the bill. Came out with the ratings, flew with some great guys and gals, and did something that had a deeper meaning.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Click to expand...

@Jeremy A Brito . That’s a way many have done it. You don’t have to be a pilot. The GI Bill can take a big chunk out of the cost after you get out. Even while you are still in if you are stationed somewhere where there are 141 schools nearby.
 
Fallsrider said:
I would definitely look into any local flying clubs. I have one locally that I need to eventually look into myself.

According to their web site, here's their specifics...

$100/mo. membership (reduced to $50 for any month you rent planes for 5 hours or more)
Piper Tomahawk (for PPL training) - $49/hr tach time, dry (not Hobbs)
Piper Cherokee 180 - $77/hr tach time, dry (IFR equipped)
Piper Cherokee 6/300 - $125/hr tach time, dry (IFR equipped)

They say they have CFIs they can recommend. I don't know enough to know if this particular club is a good deal for an aspiring pilot, but it is at least an option compared to going through a full fledged Flight School. Maybe your area has something similar.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

That's a deal on steriods! That Tomahawk needs what, 6gph? So add $30 for fuel and another $40-$50 for an instructor. That puts you at ~$125/hour for dual!
 
Jeremy A Brito said:
I think though there should be more resources available such as student financial aid to help make it more affordable to be a student pilot. I know there are loans out there but they arent student loans in the traditional sense. For example I have the GI Bill which will pay for a portion of my advanced training but not my initial and even then the money I will get will only cover a small precent of the total cost.
I get there are costs involved with every aspect of the entire process I'm learning more each day, honestly my goal is to one day become an instructor my self cause I enjoy teaching but I hope that by the time I get there they have come up with away to make it more affordable so that its not just the few willing to take on enormous debt or lucky enough to have a huge source of funding. But if that doesnt happen call me a dreamer but I'd love to be able to come up with a model to make avaition accessible to everyone, even if it means teaching for free to make it happen personally for me id like to do that for veterans being one my self I understand what its like to come out and hunt for a career in a job market it with limited resources.

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
There are various scholarships - not just for the 18-22 yr olds in school. Do the research. I didn't learn to fly until I was established in my career and could afford to not to go into debt.
 
Ravioli said:
That's a deal on steriods! That Tomahawk needs what, 6gph? So add $30 for fuel and another $40-$50 for an instructor. That puts you at ~$125/hour for dual!
Click to expand...
I wondered if it was. Haven't really thought it through. Their website says the Tomahawk has 112 horsepower. So 6 gallons per hour probably isn't far off. The one downside is that the club is located at the second largest airport in NC. So you'd probably waste a decent amount of time taxiing and waiting for takeoff. I imagine fuel is more expensive there, also. But you would probably end up with your PPL having a good grounding in ATC!
 
@Fallsrider - I rounded up to 6gph, you won't see that in the pattern. I also guestimated $5/gal. So so $30 for fuel is reasonable guess. Now then, what does that CFI want? $50ish happens. So I'm sticking with my opinion that ~$125 dual, and ~$90 solo is a deal.

Reference: I paid $115 hobbs wet and $45 to the CFI when I trained 15 yrs ago.
 
Ravioli said:
@Fallsrider - I rounded up to 6gph, you won't see that in the pattern. I also guestimated $5/gal. So so $30 for fuel is reasonable guess. Now then, what does that CFI want? $50ish happens. So I'm sticking with my opinion that ~$125 dual, and ~$90 solo is a deal.

Reference: I paid $115 hobbs wet and $45 to the CFI when I trained 15 yrs ago.
Click to expand...
You know far more about it than I do, and you're probably spot-on. I may have to make a phone call and talk about it with a club representative myself.

It would seem to me there are other clubs in different areas that would be somewhat similar in pricing structure. Hopefully the OP can find something like this.
 
Most anyone here can tell you I don't know jack about anything. :)
 
There was once a time when airlines would hire zero time applicants and pay for all their training. Then deregulation happens and the industry has been a roller coaster ever since. Before deregulation is was a bumpy road. Now the road disappears sometimes.

I think the most important factor in career expectations is your DOB. You hit it right and it is great. Show up at the beginning of a down turn and it sucks.

Some of the high costs you face to get in the door were created by politicians being influenced by unions and crash victims family’s. The unions were emphatically supportive of the regulatory changes after the Buffalo NY crash in an effort to create an artificial shortage of pilots.

Airlines helped them by keeping wages and quality of life suppressed for entry level jobs.

The net result is everyone is talking about a pilot shortage that doesn’t exist. There is a shortage of people willing to invest serious amounts of cash for the quality of job that currently exists.

Regardless of what you , I or anyone else thinks about the situation it doesn’t change the reality of what you face. If you want to be a pilot open up that wallet and get going. The longer you wait the higher the risk it won’t pay off the way you want it to.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Some of the high costs you face to get in the door were created by politicians being influenced by unions and crash victims family’s. The unions were emphatically supportive of the regulatory changes after the Buffalo NY crash in an effort to create an artificial shortage of pilots.

Airlines helped them by keeping wages and quality of life suppressed for entry level jobs.

The net result is everyone is talking about a pilot shortage that doesn’t exist. There is a shortage of people willing to invest serious amounts of cash for the quality of job that currently exists.
Click to expand...

I will agree with the first part of your comment, but not the second. Yes the current situation was created by bad legislation pushed by the unions and families. However there is indeed a shortage. Wages have come up significantly, but it hasn't stemmed the problem one bit. In order to sustain growth, the airlines are estimated to need 600,000 pilots in the next decade. This is due to not only to growth in the sector, but also due to average age and pending retirement of a lot of current pilots. There are only an estimated 600,000 licensed pilots in the entire country. That includes the weekend warriors and the people that got the license and haven't flown since.

Where the legislation is causing the worst damage is the gap between flight school and becoming an airline pilot. Your average flight school grad will have about 300-500 hours. They need anywhere from 1,000 to 1,500 to get hired as a co-pilot. There just aren't enough jobs out there to bridge that gap. There is only so much instructing, banner towing, or jump schools out there. The legislation created an artificial gap in a pilot career with no solution, and with no basis in reality or fact either. The Colgan accident that triggered the legislation would not have been affected by the ATP rule. The families of the victims were exploited by the unions to serve their purpose, without understanding what actually happened. The government should never legislate out of emotion of grief. Too many bad laws have been created that way.
 
Fallsrider said:
The one downside is that the club is located at the second largest airport in NC. So you'd probably waste a decent amount of time taxiing and waiting for takeoff.
Click to expand...

And the upside to that downside is the billing is done by tach hours, not by the Hobbs meter. So while idling or low taxi power-ing around the airport, your dollar meter is moving very slowly.

-Skip
 
midwestpa24 said:
I will agree with the first part of your comment, but not the second. Yes the current situation was created by bad legislation pushed by the unions and families. However there is indeed a shortage. Wages have come up significantly, but it hasn't stemmed the problem one bit. In order to sustain growth, the airlines are estimated to need 600,000 pilots in the next decade. This is due to not only to growth in the sector, but also due to average age and pending retirement of a lot of current pilots. There are only an estimated 600,000 licensed pilots in the entire country. That includes the weekend warriors and the people that got the license and haven't flown since.

Where the legislation is causing the worst damage is the gap between flight school and becoming an airline pilot. Your average flight school grad will have about 300-500 hours. They need anywhere from 1,000 to 1,500 to get hired as a co-pilot. There just aren't enough jobs out there to bridge that gap. There is only so much instructing, banner towing, or jump schools out there. The legislation created an artificial gap in a pilot career with no solution, and with no basis in reality or fact either. The Colgan accident that triggered the legislation would not have been affected by the ATP rule. The families of the victims were exploited by the unions to serve their purpose, without understanding what actually happened. The government should never legislate out of emotion of grief. Too many bad laws have been created that way.
Click to expand...
Hard to convince me this industry is growing domestically. When I started my career there were 7 Major is flag carriers flying domestic and international routes. There were also several good sized supplemental 121 freight operators. Today three majors and two box haulers that are worthwhile employers.

Wages have not come up that much. It’s better but not enough to have impact on new pilot starts in my opinion.
 
People dont think flying is expensive like that, but it is.
 
Come to N27, Bradford County, PA flight school. C-152, $75/hr wet, $30/hr instructors, $105/hr dual.

Oh wait, flight school is grounded, never mind. :sigh:
 
Skip Miller said:
And the upside to that downside is the billing is done by tach hours, not by the Hobbs meter. So while idling or low taxi power-ing around the airport, your dollar meter is moving very slowly.

-Skip
Click to expand...
True, and they make a strong point about that on their website. That would definitely help with the expenses during time on the ground.
 
Grum.Man said:
If you are looking for cheap you shouldn't be looking at 172's for training, find a place that has 152's or other 2 place planes that rent for almost 1/2 the cost. Find an independent cfi will likely be cheaper than a flight school. Can't find one you say, go to the local airports and ask who the instructors are. Call the local examiner and ask them who a good independent cfi is. Buying a plane can be the most cost effective path or it can set you very far behind the curve.

Find an FBO or club that has 2 seat airplanes and find an independent CFI. Unless you just flat out don't understand something I think a lot of ground school is a waste of money given today's online resources available to you. Don't buy expensive headsets, flight bags, digital flight computers, expensive knee boards, etc. I used an old bookbag, david clarks, clip board, and an E6B which has taken me from PPL to CSMEL.
Click to expand...

Also, look for training in LSAs; just do it to PPL standards. Most LSAs burn about 1/2 the gas per hour as a certified plane, and most are also rudder planes, so you learn to use your feet, ab inito. Finally, there's a good chance they'll be more responsive than a C-172.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Hard to convince me this industry is growing domestically. When I started my career there were 7 Major is flag carriers flying domestic and international routes. There were also several good sized supplemental 121 freight operators. Today three majors and two box haulers that are worthwhile employers.
Click to expand...

It is growing domestically. Seat miles and passenger enplanements have seen a steady increase over the last 5-10 years to record highs. While technically you are correct about the 7 legacy majors consolidating into 3, the role of the regionals has replaced what many of the legacies were doing. The regionals themselves are now operating a fleet of 70-100 seat aircraft, reminiscent of the early 737 and DC-9s the legacies operated. As for pay, 12 years ago when I entered the workforce, our local regional FOs were making sub $20k, captains $30k. Your major regional guys are now making $50-60k and up. Even the small carriers such as Air Choice One and Air Boutique are paying double what the Mesabas and Mesas used to pay, just to fly a Caravan or Pilatus. Once you get into flying for a major, even FO pay is starting to top $100k.

Pay was an issue, but it isn't the only one. And honestly, we pilots are partially to blame for the pay scale. Flying is such a passion to us, that there is almost always someone else willing to do it cheaper just to have the opportunity to fly. Not many other vocations have that problem. We are our own worst enemy.
 
Fallsrider said:
Piper Tomahawk (for PPL training) - $49/hr tach time, dry (not Hobbs)
Click to expand...
The Tomahawk is a good trainer... Just double check the weight and balance numbers if you or your instructor are average the larger than average persons.

For planning purposes, a conservative fuel burn is 10 gallons per hour (and I might be a touch high on this). So if fuel in you area is about $4.50 per gallon, this means you're using $45.00 of av gas per hour. Add that to the dry rate, that's $94.00 per hour "wet".

That really good deal for the 50-60 hours you're going to be doing to get your PPL.

So if it was 60 hours (again, using the conservative estimate), your estimated airplane rental costs will be $5,640.00.

Compare this to what Cessna 172s are known to rent for in my market area ($135/hr wet), 60 hours of that is $8,100.

So with your Tomahawk, you're saving nearly $2,500.00. And that helps accomplish the goal you told your family of keeping the costs to a reasonable level.
 
In Post #8, Kath mentioned "rungs" and milestones

One of the first "milestones" for the Private Pilots License is obtaining your medical certification and should be something you do before spending large sums of money on airplane and instructor rental.

It can also be one of the major "shoot yourself in the head" roadblocks if done wrong.

So here is one of my cut and pastes about obtaining the medical certification that hopefully explains what to expect and what could turn out to be a fatal head wound if done wrong or your have a particular item in your medical history.....



To gain confidence, and more importantly, knowledge, of what is involved with obtaining your first medical certificate, start by reviewing the instruction manual for MedXpress, the FAA's online form for applying for a medical. You can find that here: https://medxpress.faa.gov/medxpress/Content/Docs/MedXPressUsersGuide.pdf

Scroll down to page 24 of 36. This is where they ask about any medications you are currently taking (Question 17). If there are none, move to the next section. But if there are some, you will be asked to list the names, dosage, and frequency. Most medications are permitted. Some are not and will be a show stopper. Others may be an indicator of a medical item that the FAA will want to know more about. In many cases, the FAA will need a letter from your treating doctor that mention the medications, why they were prescribed, and how well they are helping you. During the examination, the Aviation Medical Examiner will ask questions about the medications and the doctors letter, fill in some blanks, and make notations on his side of the application form.

Now scroll down to page 26 of 36. This is the medical history section (Question 18). An important phrase here is "Have you ever in your life..." Review these items and see if any should be answered yes. If one or more is answered yes, then definitely do not go to an AME to obtain a medical certificate until you thoroughly know what the FAA is going to want to know about the item you checked as yes.

Some of these are minor and the documentation required is also minor. Others are big, BIG things, and while they might not be show stoppers, you will have to obtain more things that are the right things and in the right format and order in order to satisfy the FAA.

Again, do not go to an AME for a live exam until you know what information and documentation the FAA wants for the item(s) you marked "yes"

How do you find out what the FAA wants? The best way is to have a consultation visit with an AME. This visit does not get reported to the FAA. All it is is a information gather visit with the medical examiner to find out what you need to obtain. If you are unable to find an AME in your area to do this, then reach out to Dr. Bruce Chien in Bolingbrook, IL, www.aeromedicaldoc.com Dr. Bruce is a member here and can answer your questions online. But direct emails are often more efficient and allow him to discuss things in a way he cannot on a public form.


Another important area of Question 18 is Question 18v. Alcohol and drug related motor vehicle actions. Question 18v asks about a history of “arrests or convictions involving driving while intoxicated by, while impaired by, or while under the influence of alcohol or a drug.” This would include arrests or convictions for offenses that were reduced to a lower offense, such as careless driving. This also includes offenses that were expunged by the courts after a certain time period. Pilots who have been ticketed for operating under the influence while driving a golf cart or a boat have also been required to report these offenses. Remember, your signature on the Form authorizes the FAA to search the National Drivers Register.

Do not try to lie or fib or skirt the issue here.... if you are found out... it is major bad voodoo.

If you do have an alcohol offense in your past, it is not a showstopper. But there will be some added steps to demonstrate to the FAA that you are worthy of the certificate in spite of alcohol being a part of your past life.

Moving on, look at page 28 of 36 and Question 19, which asks questions about medical professionals. If all of your past doctor visits have been routine things with no major medical issues. Then the FAA will say all is good, thanks for telling us about the visits. But if there were visits for particular medical things, then additional explanations about the reason for the visit, and the doctor's findings will be needed.
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I hope this helps. Do continue to ask questions as you think of them.
 
@AggieMike88, good post, but I'm not the OP.

I was just trying to help the OP see what a club in my area had to offer to possibly help him save some money.
 
midwestpa24 said:
It is growing domestically. Seat miles and passenger enplanements have seen a steady increase over the last 5-10 years to record highs. While technically you are correct about the 7 legacy majors consolidating into 3, the role of the regionals has replaced what many of the legacies were doing. The regionals themselves are now operating a fleet of 70-100 seat aircraft, reminiscent of the early 737 and DC-9s the legacies operated. As for pay, 12 years ago when I entered the workforce, our local regional FOs were making sub $20k, captains $30k. Your major regional guys are now making $50-60k and up. Even the small carriers such as Air Choice One and Air Boutique are paying double what the Mesabas and Mesas used to pay, just to fly a Caravan or Pilatus. Once you get into flying for a major, even FO pay is starting to top $100k.

Pay was an issue, but it isn't the only one. And honestly, we pilots are partially to blame for the pay scale. Flying is such a passion to us, that there is almost always someone else willing to do it cheaper just to have the opportunity to fly. Not many other vocations have that problem. We are our own worst enemy.
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Major regional is not a thing.

I’m regards to regionals paying 50-60 and up. You need to compare it to what it replaced. As you said, Those routes and pilot jobs were formerly flying dc-9-100 sized aircraft at the majors. Regional pilots were only operating turboprops. Now regional pilots are flying mainline sized equipment on mainline routes for a fraction of mainline compensation. If guys were making current wages flying a beech 1900 then it would indeed be a raise in pay. Taking a higher paying job away from mainline and dumping it on a regional... thats not a pay increase.

Pilots are the worst. We don’t need significant others in our lives... we are pretty good at ****ing ourselves.
 
In addition to the 18v. alcohol items, other "don't proceed until you know what to do" items include (but not limited to)
  • use of SSRI medication for mental disorders such as depression or anxiety.
  • use of SSRI medications for "off label" afflictions other than mental disorders
  • diagnosis of ADD/ADHD and use of ADHD medications. This includes being wrongly tagged as child as having ADD/ADHD by parent, general practitioner, or teacher/school nurse
  • PTSD
  • color blindness
  • monovision
  • severe migraines
  • cardiac artery disease
and several others.

If you have these or any other "FAA is going to want more detail" items in your medical past, do not go for a live exam until you learn what the FAA wants to know. You can go for a consult. But if they ask you to fill out an online form called MedXpress and hand over the confirmation number, refuse to do that. Remind them you want a consult. Only fill out the form and surrender the confirmation number once you know with more than 100% certainty you will pass the exam and receive your medical certificate.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Major regional is not a thing.

I’m regards to regionals paying 50-60 and up. You need to compare it to what it replaced. As you said, Those routes and pilot jobs were formerly flying dc-9-100 sized aircraft at the majors. Regional pilots were only operating turboprops. Now regional pilots are flying mainline sized equipment on mainline routes for a fraction of mainline compensation. If guys were making current wages flying a beech 1900 then it would indeed be a raise in pay. Taking a higher paying job away from mainline and dumping it on a regional... thats not a pay increase.

Pilots are the worst. We don’t need significant others in our lives... we are pretty good at ****ing ourselves.
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50-60 is still a joke.

Anything that requires a type should start at six figures.
 
One way I justify the cost of training to obtain a PPL is to remember even while training, I am flying and enjoying myself. What will it cost you to fly after you get your PPL? It certainly won’tbe free. I probably don’t make sense. Can you afford to fly if you already had your PPL?
 
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murphey said:
The basic issue is the liability - translation: insurance and the lawyers. Very few of us here buy new. My cherokee is 50 yrs old and cost less than a new car.

Rental vs owning a C172 or similar entry-level airplane:
  • The company renting the airplane to you is paying 3-5 x insurance than I do.
  • The company renting the airplane to you is probably doing the 100 hr inspection 3-6 times a year where I do an annual once a year.
  • The company renting the airplane to you has more frequent maintenance to perform (and pay for) (at least I hope they do the maintenance!) than I do.
  • The company renting the airplane has overhead (liabililty, salaries, etc) that I don't have.
  • The company renting the airplane needs to make a profit or it won't be around very long.

One of the most effective ways to learn is to join a club - not a business that has the word "club" in it but a real club where the costs are shared and no one is making a profit.
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100% of this. I own/operate a small flight school with 6 owned airplanes and 2 leased. My insurance went up 10% this year only because there are fewer underwriters and they are getting more firm. No accidents/incident. My bill was $35,000 for the year, and that does not include work comp which will be another couple grand. I spend more on insurance than aircraft payments each year.
 
Z06_Mir said:
100% of this. I own/operate a small flight school with 6 owned airplanes and 2 leased. My insurance went up 10% this year only because there are fewer underwriters and they are getting more firm. No accidents/incident. My bill was $35,000 for the year, and that does not include work comp which will be another couple grand. I spend more on insurance than aircraft payments each year.
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hmmmm.... doing some "dirt math", if each airplane is billed out at $100 dry, each airplane needs to have 438 billable flying hours during the year just to cover this expense.
 
AggieMike88 said:
hmmmm.... doing some "dirt math", if each airplane is billed out at $100 dry, each airplane needs to have 438 billable flying hours during the year just to cover this expense.
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That’s probably about right. Every time I’ve done the math on how many hours an aircraft that is available for rent needs to fly it comes out to 400ish hours each year, at typical rental rates. And that number is just to break even.

People should take note of this before going off on how greedy flight schools/FBOs are. The guys I know who are running FBOs are generally only offering flight training because they have to. They aren’t making much (if any) money at it.
 
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