Velocity

Palamedes

Palamedes

Pre-Flight
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Blairsville, GA
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Display name:
Jason Ellis
Who are our resident Velocity builders?

Is the velocity as awesome as it seems?
Would you build one again, or is it one of those "great one time experiences" thing?
 
Well I never built mine so all I can attest to are it's flying characteristics.

I purchased mine from the Velocity factory in 2010 under their brokerage program. Insurance required I attend their training program so I attended that as well. I believe it was 1 hr ground and 1.5 hrs flying. I toured the factory and looked at planes in various states of completion. To me there is no doubt about the quality of the kit components. Basically it comes down to attention to detail from the builder. Personally I'd rather go with a Kitplane such as a Velocity over a plans build. In a plans built you can have varying degrees of builder quality. When you look at what comes in a quick build Velocity you can see that most of the hard work has been done. Also they have a builder program located on site.

At the factory they have two demonstrators. They have a fixed gear 173 and a retractable XL. Since I was buying a 173 RG I went with the 173 FG to train in. Everything about preflight and ground handling is straight forward. If you've taxied a Grumman you can taxi a Velocity. On take off you set the electric canard about one finger trailing edge down and rotate around 65 kts, climbing out around 90 kts and just over 1,000 FPM. Not having the noise of the engine prop in front of you on take off is a pleasant change.

While aloft, the biggest selling point is the handling. Light on roll but a little stiff in pitch. Steep turns are a flick of the wrist away. A couple clicks of up elevator will keep it in the turn with minimal aft stick. What a lot of people don't realize is that you can bank these things by pedal application. You actually get more roll out of pressing the pedals than yaw. You have to do a bit of cross controlling during a strong crosswind. Of course stalls are a nonissue as well. Without VGs the canard will stall around 60 kts and pitch buck with full aft stick. I believe with VGs it stalls a few knots less but won't pitch buck. Both versions will descend at 500 FPM with full aft stick. Cruise in the FG was around 155 KTAS. I get around 162 KTAS running 2,500 rpm on a fixed 3 bladed Catto Prop with a zero wind range around 900 nm. Aerobatics are not approved but I've read about Velocity test pilots doing it. With a 9-12 G airframe it's capable of taking a fair amount of stress. Approach speed is 70-75 kts. This is where the handling takes a little getting used to. With the long wing it floats like crazy and it's pitch sensitive. Pilots have gotten into PIO before and crushed the gear on landing. Mine actually has a couple landing incidents before I bought it. Not dangerous, just gotta get used to it. I have noticed with changes in CG the pitch gets pretty sensitive. Single pilot not an issue though.

The airplane has plenty of room. 600 lbs payload you can load up three with luggage. Whatever you can't stuff in the strakes you can put on the floor and seat next to the passenger in the back. Probably the most comfortable plane that I've ever flown. Sit slightly reclined with the right arm resting on the center gripping the stick and the left resting on the side gripping the throttle. With gull wing doors access is easy. I'd recommend staying away from the one door "top lid" models. Way too hard getting people in and out in those. Plenty of room in the back in the 173/SE models. The XL of course has even more room.

Best way to experience it is go down to Sebastion FL and go up. I know when you compare the performance, price, and looks to a similar 200 HP certified, you'll be sold. If you can't go down, order their DVD. It's a bit old but it'll give you a good look at the builder program and a couple tests flights filmed from inside the aircraft.
 
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Excellent! Thank you for the quick reply..

I will admit that they are sexy machines and I would love to own one. I worry about building one though. I'm very mechanically inclined, good with my hands and enjoy building things.. (I'm an avid wood worker).. but whoa.. for some reason building a fully functioning airplane seems a tall order.

Also I have watched several videos on the build process and it is anything but quick..heh

All the videos I have seen on youtube on the velocity makes it sound quite loud in the cabin.. is that true? Or are those just bad cameras?
 
Palamedes said:
Excellent! Thank you for the quick reply..

I will admit that they are sexy machines and I would love to own one. I worry about building one though. I'm very mechanically inclined, good with my hands and enjoy building things.. (I'm an avid wood worker).. but whoa.. for some reason building a fully functioning airplane seems a tall order.

Also I have watched several videos on the build process and it is anything but quick..heh

All the videos I have seen on youtube on the velocity makes it sound quite loud in the cabin.. is that true? Or are those just bad cameras?
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You don't build airplane, you complete 1,000 small projects that complete an airplane. Go for it man, you only live once.

BTW, I know of a nice FG for sale at my home drome. It is on Barnstormers.
 
I was interested in the Velocity RG not long ago. Contacted the factory, tried several times to arrange for Tour, demo flight etc. They acted like they couldn't be bothered with just another "tire kicker". If this was going to be indicative of the kind of support I would get after becoming an owner, well, thanks but no.

So I spent the money on a Comanche instead. I'm very happy about the decision.
 
Geico266 said:
You don't build airplane, you complete 1,000 small projects that complete an airplane. Go for it man, you only live once.
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I would but I don't have the space just yet. my wife and I are building a new home soon and that will include a giant work shop. "for wood working".. Little does she know.. *muhahaha*

Chip Sylverne said:
I was interested in the Velocity RG not long ago. Contacted the factory, tried several times to arrange for Tour, demo flight etc. They acted like they couldn't be bothered with just another "tire kicker". If this was going to be indicative of the kind of support I would get after becoming an owner, well, thanks but no.
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I don't blame you. No excuse for bad customer service. I will go with the more expensive good customer service every time. Want to turn me off your product? Treat me badly..
 
Velocity is no longer owned by the original players... i cannot explain your experience but when I was helping build a Velocity SUV between 10 and 6 years ago factory involvement, support and reachability was much different.

They are nice planes.. but they are paved, long field planes.. cross country machines..

Building and repairing is a matter of making layups.. sanding.. filling.. sanding... filling.. sanding... and sand some more. When you make an RV its all about riveting.. Fast glass planes are all about sanding...

Unfortunately I chose to part ways with the fella I was partnering with.. but it was an awesome experience in learning how to do glass, fab parts, build an engine from scratch and overhaul it (auto conversion) and put together an avionics suite...

I think the Velocity is a fine plane, but with it all being said and done, I like to play as well as do cross country, and the RV's are the mass market airframe for that sort of adventure..
 
I've had no problems with customer service but then again I was buying an aircraft from them. That being said, they're no Vans either. Velocity is a shell of it's former self. Like most other homebuilt companies (excluding Vans), they're not exactly prospering. They have a fraction of the people working for them that they had in the 90's. When I was there they had kits ready to send but no buyers. It's a reflection of the slow decline of GA.

I bought my aircraft because of price, looks, and performance. I wasn't interested in buying an old certified metal aircraft that was never originally designed to last this long. No metal fatigue issues, probably half the parts of a certified, and when I do need parts (panel) they cost far less than certified. Sure I like SR-20s but at half the price I go faster, farther and in my opinion look better doing it.
 
Always wondered why I don't see many Velocities out there. The Lancair IVP is a purpose-built XC machine, plenty of those around. The Lancair 360 isn't bad either, plenty of those around.

I'm trying to work out if it was a harder build, if it was just a little too different in its appearance, or if it had anything to do with the viability of the company.

It is a neat looking plane and the performance numbers are impressive. I wanted it to be more successful.
 
Does the canard cause the velocity to suffer from pitch change when entering moisture?
 
FORANE said:
Does the canard cause the velocity to suffer from pitch change when entering moisture?
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Mine does. From what I've read it's common thing in most canards and not just Velocity. Mine pitches slightly up, while some others pitch down. Down is probably the most common. It's really minor and once you're established in the moisture content, it stabilizes. Going in and out of cumulus will create a neat occilating episode though.
 
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I suspect that the Rocket Racing episode did them no favours by sucking people into its vortex.

BTW, I was at a local fly-in last Saturday. For the first time in my recollection, RVs outnumbered Cessnas and Pipers put together. There was one Sonex. One Dragonfly. No Velocities.

Their new V-twin is very intriguing, but I doubt it's going to help them. Not many people have the rating.
 
I got a ride in a TRI Q-200 quickie once and that thing turned on a dime. I mean it was incredible. Box canyon? No problem. It could pull a U turn tighter than anything. Don't know if that is typical of all canard types or not but it was impressive.
 
A fellow right down the road from me builds RV's and they are amazing.. I had no idea how nice a home built plane could be.. I knew a fellow in Texas who talked about his Lancair a lot and I am ashamed to admit I just kinda assumed it wasn't as nice as a professionally made production aircraft. I was wrong.. I admit it. In fact, I was way off. I'm not really sure what I expected, but for some reason I just assumed it wouldn't be as nice as it was.. That makes me very happy actually as it means your average joe (read: me) can do this!

I think the thing that attracts me to the Velocity versus any other plane is the fact that it is so unique looking. That's not to say that the other planes aren't good, but I just really like the style and looks of the velocity.

I like unique or uncommon things. I like to do things others don't do, drive the car others don't, ride the motorcycle others don't. etc.. I like to stick out a little, I always have. Not rub peoples noses in it or be a jerk/douche, but just to be quietly a little different.

It's something that I have done all my life and I have accepted it =) (Thankfully so has my wife.. Won the lottery on that one..)

But it's not just about being different.. there's more to it than that; If something is "hard" because people say so, then well that's something I have to do.. I need to experience that and prove that I can do it because others say it's too hard or not possible..etc.. Again, not to prove them wrong but more to prove something to myself. I'm kinda brain damaged that way..

Anyway, I'm a very handy person and I am sure given enough time, I could build one. ...but that's the trick isn't it... "given enough time". I know I will want to get up and fly sooner rather than later.

I might have to find a local rental to use weekly to "get my fix" while I build one.. I'm just kinda worried I'll bite off more than I can chew.

I have been diligently watching this "Clayton Chase" fellow (http://www.youtube.com/user/faldgan/videos) and he's doing great! Extremely meticulous and I wish like hell I could be in the room with him while he works to just understand thoroughly what he's doing, ask him questions and maybe occasionally pet his dog that wanders in.. =D

I have never worked with fiberglass and I must admit that scares me a tad. Rivets seem much more straight forward.

Either way, I want him to go faster! haha I know he can't, it's a heck of a process and he's going at exactly the right pace.. but I want him to hurry up and win so we can all celebrate and rejoice with him.

His videos montages are good to watch and I assume he's doing this to prove that he actually did it to the FAA? Love the videos but there is actually a reason for it right?

Which brings me to my question to you McFly, you purchased yours.. does that mean you can't service it yourself?

Geico mentioned there is one for sale near him, but again if you buy a premade or if you buy one that is in a partially made state (which I have found several of) you're never sure of what you're getting right? I'm leery of that.. Should I be?
 
A lot can be told about build quality by an experienced ear listening to tapping on key places on the airframe. Having said that, my plan was to find a flying airplane with factory built wings, or one that was built as part of the builder-assist program at Sebastian. Build quality was a concern, as was powerplant cooling. You can find them powered by everything from Subies to Franklins. My choice was to find a Lycoming 0-540. Prop selection is also an issue.

There is a ton of stuff on the web from which to do your homework.
 
Palamedes said:
A fellow right down the road from me builds RV's and they are amazing.. I had no idea how nice a home built plane could be.. I knew a fellow in Texas who talked about his Lancair a lot and I am ashamed to admit I just kinda assumed it wasn't as nice as a professionally made production aircraft. I was wrong.. I admit it. In fact, I was way off. I'm not really sure what I expected, but for some reason I just assumed it wouldn't be as nice as it was.. That makes me very happy actually as it means your average joe (read: me) can do this!

I think the thing that attracts me to the Velocity versus any other plane is the fact that it is so unique looking. That's not to say that the other planes aren't good, but I just really like the style and looks of the velocity.

I like unique or uncommon things. I like to do things others don't do, drive the car others don't, ride the motorcycle others don't. etc.. I like to stick out a little, I always have. Not rub peoples noses in it or be a jerk/douche, but just to be quietly a little different.

It's something that I have done all my life and I have accepted it =) (Thankfully so has my wife.. Won the lottery on that one..)

But it's not just about being different.. there's more to it than that; If something is "hard" because people say so, then well that's something I have to do.. I need to experience that and prove that I can do it because others say it's too hard or not possible..etc.. Again, not to prove them wrong but more to prove something to myself. I'm kinda brain damaged that way..

Anyway, I'm a very handy person and I am sure given enough time, I could build one. ...but that's the trick isn't it... "given enough time". I know I will want to get up and fly sooner rather than later.

I might have to find a local rental to use weekly to "get my fix" while I build one.. I'm just kinda worried I'll bite off more than I can chew.

I have been diligently watching this "Clayton Chase" fellow (http://www.youtube.com/user/faldgan/videos) and he's doing great! Extremely meticulous and I wish like hell I could be in the room with him while he works to just understand thoroughly what he's doing, ask him questions and maybe occasionally pet his dog that wanders in.. =D

I have never worked with fiberglass and I must admit that scares me a tad. Rivets seem much more straight forward.

Either way, I want him to go faster! haha I know he can't, it's a heck of a process and he's going at exactly the right pace.. but I want him to hurry up and win so we can all celebrate and rejoice with him.

His videos montages are good to watch and I assume he's doing this to prove that he actually did it to the FAA? Love the videos but there is actually a reason for it right?

Which brings me to my question to you McFly, you purchased yours.. does that mean you can't service it yourself?

Geico mentioned there is one for sale near him, but again if you buy a premade or if you buy one that is in a partially made state (which I have found several of) you're never sure of what you're getting right? I'm leery of that.. Should I be?
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Yeah I can service mine myself. Can't do the condition inspection but anything else I can do. I don't though. I treat it like a certified. Outside of Part 43 stuff I take it to the shop to get worked on. Had the condition inspections all done at the factory the last two years. It costs more but I know the people working on it have been working on Velocity aircraft for years. They know exactly what to look for. Really, both inspections have been a non event. No real trends except the landing gear. Some of the RGs have had their main gear break. Now they modify them with a metal reinforcement bracket.

Personally the hassle of buying a partial kit wouldn't be worth it. Gotta go down, inspect it, ship it, build it. I just don't have the time or the space to do that.

You've got a nice RV12 right there at DZJ (N126BJ). It was highlighted in Sport Aviation mag a few years ago. I wanna say the guy who built it is a retired Navy A-7 guy who lives in the area.

You'll see the quality in kits as far as fit and finish will vary greatly depending on age and builder attention to detail. Mine is no showplane by any means but I've got a good Blue Mountain glass panel and a Garmin480 that well exceed any IFR requirements I have. Only problem I've had is the engine and since it's Lycoming, that has nothing to do with the quality of the kit.
 
I've yet to fly a cannard, but the quickie and RG velocity look like fun airframes

Though I'd take a Glasair with a TIO550 and short wings first ;)
 
Best experimental placard I ever saw said this:

Thos is an experimental aircraft it doesn't meat the FAA certification requirements. It exceeds them. This was on a. RV-6. It was a joy to fly.
 
Palamedes said:
Sounds like I need to plan a trip to Sebastian.
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If you do, make sure you schedule a flight in the XL to get the full benefit. I think when you compare the performance and price of that to an SR-22 you'll be sold. Expect a full flight report when you return though. :)
 
I can tell you why I decided against a Velocity, and I did seriously consider one. I like the looks of them, I like the speed, but I'm not a huge fiberglass fan and didn't like the T/O and landing distance and speeds. Not that they're unreasonable, just not well suited to what I think I want to do with my plane. They're really nice planes, though, and if one fits your mission -- I'd say go for it. The nonconformist in you will love it. :)

I promised myself I wouldn't stop flying while building. I was lucky enough to join a local flying club with a good combination: relatively inexpensive flying AND a "dry minimum" charge. If you don't fly at least an hour during the month, you pay half an hour's rate anyway. Knowing you're paying for at least half an hour per month no matter what is a powerful motivator to make time to go fly at least once a month!
 
Velocity173 said:
If you do, make sure you schedule a flight in the XL to get the full benefit. I think when you compare the performance and price of that to an SR-22 you'll be sold. Expect a full flight report when you return though. :)
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Would you say its that much superior to a Sr22?
 
Palamedes said:
Would you say its that much superior to a Sr22?
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Well just look at the used TXL that they have for sale on their website and compare it's specs to a used SR22T. To me the Velocity wins hands down.

Keep in mind the factory is nothing spectacular. It's just a small company with a couple of hangers with airplane parts everywhere. It's no Cirrus or Cessna with aircraft lined up in an assembly line. They should have a nice XL available for demos though. Maybe the V-twin will be there as well.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well just look at the used TXL that they have for sale on their website and compare it's specs to a used SR22T. To me the Velocity wins hands down.

Keep in mind the factory is nothing spectacular. It's just a small company with a couple of hangers with airplane parts everywhere. It's no Cirrus or Cessna with aircraft lined up in an assembly line. They should have a nice XL available for demos though. Maybe the V-twin will be there as well.
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I'm assuming you mean the TXL-RG on their site.. it looks like a demo model that they went all in on to try to sell the brand.. =)

It's a very nice looking machine for damn sure..

You can get SR22's for the same price range..

The differences between the machines are comparable really.. The Velocity can technically go faster.. 250kts @FL250 but wow.. do you really fly your Velocity that high?

The big negative most people I talk to about the Velocity is always in landing it.. They say it's a floater that needs a really long runway.. That implies to me it loves to fly =) so in a way I see that as a good review.. haha
 
Velocity173 said:
Mine does. From what I've read it's common thing in most canards and not just Velocity. Mine pitches slightly up, while some others pitch down. Down is probably the most common. It's really minor and once you're established in the moisture content, it stabilizes. Going in and out of cumulus will create a neat occilating episode though.
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Thread hijack -- I've never heard of this phenomenon. What is the mechanism and why is it particular to canards?
 
DJTorrente said:
Thread hijack -- I've never heard of this phenomenon. What is the mechanism and why is it particular to canards?
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Rain, bugs or other containments can disrupt the laminar flow on a canard and reduce lift. Some of the older canards it was quite a nose drop. I have a DVD (Race 20) about a VariEze doing cross country racing. On one of his races up to OSH he encountered bugs at a low altitude pass. When the pilot pulled up the aircraft canard started stalling and going into the typical pitch buck. He actually declared an emergency and landed at OSH at a much higher than normal speed.

There are those of us who experience a slight nose up pitch when entering moisture. You can feel a slight vibration in the stick and then a 1-2 degree nose pitch. I simply counter with a click down of nose trim and keep on trucking. The nose up phenomenon hasn't fully been explained to me so I can't give you an educated description for the increase in pitch. To me, it's minor and it's not even close to being a safety issue.

If you do a search for "canard pitch and rain" you'll see several sites with pilots writing about their experiences.
 
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Palamedes said:
So something to be aware of, but not a real "concern" right?
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Yeah not a concern at all. The first time it happens it catches your attention but it's easily compensated for with the electric trim.

Couple years ago when I was still current for IFR I took it down to Sebastion for the condition inspection. I was IMC the whole way with mostly moderate rain. I don't have a coupled autopilot so I hand flew it 1.5 hrs with no problems whatsoever. When I arrived my prop's leading edge was shredded but that's because I have an older fair weather Catto. The newer ones come with a metal leading edge.

In cruise it's an extremely stable aircraft with responsive controls. To me it handles like the Grumman I used to have; light and responsive. Only now instead of doing 115 kts for 400 miles, I'm doing 165 kts for almost 1,000 miles.
 
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Flying mine out of DZJ a couple years ago.
 

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Palamedes said:
your plane looks great!



Yeah! Hell yeah.. But those stats seem a bit of a pipe dream dont they?

And they are getting zero funders..
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Thanks.

Yeah, although I love the thought of a turbine pusher, I think it'll go the way of the Jetcruzer and the Cirrus SK-30. Would be awesome if he gets some funding though.
 
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I figure I'll throw a couple hundred bucks at him and hope for the best. Sort of me putting my money where my mouth is.

I love what he is trying to do and in theory it's an excellent concept. If it doesn't get fully funded no loss, and I'm out nothing.

I like that they are in Atlanta..
 
coma24 said:
Always wondered why I don't see many Velocities out there. The Lancair IVP is a purpose-built XC machine, plenty of those around. The Lancair 360 isn't bad either, plenty of those around.

I'm trying to work out if it was a harder build, if it was just a little too different in its appearance, or if it had anything to do with the viability of the company.

It is a neat looking plane and the performance numbers are impressive. I wanted it to be more successful.
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Hey I know this thread is old but currently looking at a previously started Velocity SE kit for sale near me. Price is too good to pass up, he's looking for 20k with a used io360 and propeller. I've never been a fan of the canard style but doing my research now. This thread was very helpful.

PS as far as Lancair IVP, it might be a good x country machine on specs aka speed but when you start reading the horrific safety record it might change your mind. I think I read 50% of the units produced were in accidents.
Brad
 
The biggest problem with the Velocity is high landing speed. 70kts over the numbers for my XL-RG means you need a lot more runway than a conventional plane with flaps. But being spin-proof is a pretty nice trade off.

Oh yeah, soft field can be rough on the prop.

My climbs at 1,500fpm on a hot day. 2,500+ on a cold day. And 200kts TAS at 13.5GPH is pretty nice too.

SE's will be a bit slower but burn less fuel. And only 8 spark plugs. ;)
 
donjohnston said:
The biggest problem with the Velocity is high landing speed. 70kts over the numbers for my XL-RG means you need a lot more runway than a conventional plane with flaps. But being spin-proof is a pretty nice trade off.

Oh yeah, soft field can be rough on the prop.

My climbs at 1,500fpm on a hot day. 2,500+ on a cold day. And 200kts TAS at 13.5GPH is pretty nice too.

SE's will be a bit slower but burn less fuel. And only 8 spark plugs. ;)
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I’d love a ride in yours if you’re ever down this way! The XL-RG is one of my dream planes
 
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