VATSIM, PilotEdge or Other

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AcroGimp

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AcroGimp
Curious how many instrument rated pilots here use one or more of the sim ATC networks to keep frosty? Looking for specific recommendations with the top 2 or 3 reasons you use one or more providers and what your experience has been with them (accuracy/relevance to helping remain current from a process and comms point of view).

Thanks in advance.

'Gimp
 
I can't recommend PilotEdge enough for any type of radio/IFR review. The controllers are held to the same standard of the FAA 7110.65 (the official regulation book of phraseology for ATC) and many of the controllers are pilots and CFI's.

I think the main thing to consider is that with PilotEdge, a paid service, you have reliable hours of service, pilots of seriousness on the network, and some of the best airspace for any type of procedure you need to practice. It's also great to use for reviewing VFR airspace operations. All real world frequencies you see on real charts/plates are used on PilotEdge and you can expect tons of roaming VFR targets (called drones) wandering around the LA airspace they use.

VATSIM, at the end of the day, is free. With that, you get little high school kids supplying ATC at varying levels of consistency and availability. VATSIM is a nice entry level network, but PilotEdge is held to the standard of what we expect in the real world (being barked at while busting Class C or Class B included :nono:)

I think they still have a free trial, so I'd strongly suggest taking advantage of it.
 
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Same, PilotEdge here. Coma24 can give you all the details that you need to know, and jcepiano laid it out pretty much exactly how I would have.
 
The full list of workshops is available here: http://pilotedge.net/workshops. Start at the bottom and work your way up.

Disclaimer: I'm associated with PE, but I'll try to be as objective as possible.

VATSIM and PE provide similar service on paper. In reality, though, they're really nothing like one another.

Put simply, if you're an adult with a job and family, and you want to carve out a block of time (30, 60, 90 minutes, whatever you like) during which you'd like to have predictable, reliable ATC service for your flight, then PE is for you. The ATC is there 15x7 (8am-11pm Pacific). You'll be using the published freqs, there's no controller list.

You will, however, be limited to 40 towered airports and ~150 non-towered airports if you're looking for ATC coverage. For proficiency, that should be plenty, though.

If you want to be able to fly anywhere in the country and don't mind whether ATC is present or not, and you're ok with using an online controller list to look up the frequency (an answer that will change based on who is online at the time, if anyone), then VATSIM is best for you. It's also free.

Additionally, PE has the luxury of setting a higher standard for the controllers than would be required on VATSIM. PE is a network that is 100% designed for pilots. VATSIM is designed to appeal to hobbyist pilots AND hobbyist controllers. They can't set the bar too high, or they lose the interest of a vast number of their controllers.

What this means for you, the real world pilot, is that there is no guarantee that the person who handles your flight on VATSIM will be well-equipped to handle your requests. The majority of traffic on VATSIM is heavy metal going long haul between Bravo/Charlie airports. A spam can practicing approaches is a relatively rare event, and as a result, the handling you receive might be dodgy.

I controlled on VATSIM for around 4000 hours before starting PilotEdge. During those 7 years on VATSIM, I tried to encourage real world pilots to use it as much as possible. After getting zero traction, I realized that the perceived problems with VATSIM were significant enough to warrant building something that was purpose built, from the ground up, to support real world pilot training. That's how PE came about. It's not just a copy of VATSIM with a monthly fee slapped onto it, it's a whole different model.
 
coma24 said:
Disclaimer: I'm associated with PE, but I'll try to be as objective as possible.
Click to expand...

You mean "founder and CEO" =)

Love your network and your flying videos sir, and your IFR training vids REALLY helped me during my instrument training. Keep up the good work.
 
I have to admit that I have zero issues talking on a real radio, but PilotEdge intimidates me a little. I find it easier to fly a plane than a sim, and I am always thinking I am going to make some unforgivable mistake in PE. I think there is something to be said for the network right there. They are so professional they make ME aspire to be more of a pro than I am, and the fact that I pay for the service certainly works to make it feel more serious.
 
ChrisK, you'd be surprised how often we hear the same thing. I don't think that PE is any harder than real life (it's just ATC after all), but I think that most people find sims harder to fly than airplanes, as you said, which results in feeling a bit more anxiety than usual.
 
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Thanks for the feedback guys, I'll check PilotEdge out and see how I like it.

'Gimp
 
I passed my IFR checkride today and using Pilot Edge was a great help in my training!
 
Full disclosure: I have absolutely no connection to PilotEdge whatsoever.

PilotEdge rocks. It's a bit of a miracle that Keith and team pulled it off.

Can't believe how well it works. I used it through the LAX Bravo mini-route...which is a challenge to controllers and pilots alike. It's scary real. I agree with the other poster that it's more difficult than real flying. If you can fly IFR on PilotEdge...meaning use their fantastic free videos (many hours of great instrution), and then take their test flights, you'll save tons of money on your training. Or just use it when you need to stay fresh.

When I exit a PilotEdge session, I feel tired and stressed...in a good way...the same way I do when I fly a difficult mission.

And don't miss this...PilotEdge and Flight Sim can be used with Foreflight on an Ipad. EVERYTHING works on the iPad, just as it does in a real plane...see yourself on your route...see your location on a plate. I can't find anything that doesn't work.

Products like this only happen when someone with a vision is willing to work all hours with little income because...well because it's what they want do to.

I'd recommend PilotEdge to all pilots, regardless of experience levels.
 
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OK, now I am "officially" old.

I have been actively flying for over 50 years.
I have never used a 'pilots edge' anything - nor thought I needed to.
I have never had the slightest problem from speaking with ATC in plain, everyday english. This includes going to Oshkosh and sloppy nights and approaches to minimums. Yes and it includes busy places like ORD, CLE, yadda, yadda.
I do make an effort not to babble and to make my initial call contain only what he needs to know until he has the time to get back to me.

Other than that I say things like, 'el paso, 9 romeo romeo would like to descend to seven thousand' Lo and behold the nice ATC person tells me to descend - or not.
Or after I am handed a rapid fire set of taxi instructions that contain the middle chapters of War And Peace - where I dropped my pencil in frustration after the first hundred turns - I simply say in reply 'ground, 9 romeo romeo will need progressive taxi instructions' And walla!, I am told to follow taxiway B and he will call my turns.

Now, spending money to practice communications cannot hurt - except your wallet. But if you can speak passable english, and you have been signed off to fly solo, you have everything you need to go anywhere in the country.
 
denny, not everyone is comfortable with VFR/IFR communications. That's a fairly well-known issue.

It's particularly common at non-towered fields in the middle of nowhere where pilots get their ticket with the absolute bare minimum exposure to ATC communications.

Btw, it's not just about practicing comms, it's about bringing the sim to a level of workload that is closer to the real airplane.

I'm not saying you need to use it, I'm just saying that the issue of people not being comfortable on the radio is not a myth...it's a huge problem.
 
Been using PilotEdge since July. First It has made the Sim a real tool. It is really easy to practice procedures on the sim. I can nail all my procedures turns, altitude, and approaches. Add ATC asking for a frequency change or something you did not expect and now you are 200 feet low and 30 deg off corse.

Practice with PilotEdge for the two week trial (hand fly only, auto pilot does not provide you any experience) and then go fly for real trust me you will get it after that. I was honestly shocked at how much better things went in the real world. And my comfort level has increased 10 fold.

BTW, I am not affiliated with PilotEdge, just using it as a tool to keep the skills sharp since I can not fly in the real world as much as I want to.
 
Also not affiliated with Pilot Edge, and also think they rock.
I have been flying instruments for (it seems) eons, have seen the entire controller force get laid off and rise from the ashes, and have no problem communicating with ATC or flying the system (I got my IA right on the heels of my PPL). Despite all that, I found PE very useful. In my case, since my real-world flying is GA single engine, I decided to upgrade to the airlines on PE, by "flying" a large passenger jet between major airports (using very inexpensive FSX setup). I would have never been exposed to STARs without this, and amazingly a short time after getting comfortable with them in the big jet on PE, I got a STAR in my single engine piston Cessna on a real flight, and then again a few weeks later (both RNAV). I felt as though I have been doing them for years instead of having to improvise. I have also learned a lot about certain complex departures, climb/descent restrictions, and planning ahead in general (which is crucial in a jet when strict ATC is watching over you), that would have been hard to come by otherwise. So if you want to improve your game, I think PE is a fairly sure bet.
 
Now, spending money to practice communications cannot hurt - except your wallet. But if you can speak passable english, and you have been signed off to fly solo, you have everything you need to go anywhere in the country.
Click to expand...

Missed this from your first post, Denny. My reply isn't targeted at you directly since you stated that you're very comfortable with all the situations you've encountered, but:

1) We have clients who were 'signed off to fly solo' at a country airport in the midwest who are terrified at the notion of flying in Class B/C/D airspace. They haven't done it since their check ride and would rather 'go around' the airspace, and they never call for flight following. The notion of them flying into busy terminal airspace is a non-starter. A simulation that lets them practice these things until it's routine and boring is not a bad thing.

2) as for hurting the wallet...it's under $15/month with an annual subscription. That's about 6 minutes of C172 solo rental in many parts of the country. You can practice unlimited operations on PilotEdge each month for less than what it costs to taxi to the active in a rented 172. In the scheme of things, it's one of the more affordable training solutions for r/w pilot training.

Many people get their PPL or IR without having much confidence to fly in the system (this is especially true for IFR, since countless IFR training programs focus on passing the test and shooting approaches. Case in point, during the course of my IR training, I picked up exactly 2 IFR clearances prior to the check ride). Systems like PilotEdge and VATSIM allow pilots to garner a whole lot more utility from a simulator.

Many IR pilots are legally current, but they're simply not comfortable going on a real IFR trip in the system. Instead, they shoot the same approaches (VFR) with a safety pilot every 6 months and call it a day. Many of those people are discovering online ATC services and are using them in the sim to build up r/w proficiency.

I disagree with the premise that every newly minted pilot is good to go, anywhere in the country. Most training programs don't provide enough exposure to the system (VFR or IFR) to make that a reality. It's possible to get an instrument rating without having much of a clue of how to fly in the system, and without any exposure to flying in actual IMC.

I hope I didn't wear out my welcome in this thread, but it's a passionate topic :)
 
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Oh, and I appreciate people coming forward with their thoughts on PilotEdge. My father lives on the other side of the world, but this stuff really makes his day. He was visiting from Australia 5 years ago when I was still working through the technical design and business plan for PilotEdge. It's a big source of pride for him and makes a lot of the hard work worth while.

Btw, if you're ever thinking of launching a company with very little funding in a market that doesn't yet exist with a 3yr old daughter and 1yr old son...I would recommend adjusting the timing. Why wasn't I told?! :)
 
Sent a PM, but haven't seen a response so I'll ask here: Do you guys offer gift certificates or gift subscriptions? Seems like a perfect gift to give to pilots. If not, no worries, I'm just being asked to provide Christmas gift ideas for myself in the $20-$50 range and thought this would be a cool thing to add to that list.
 
Marty, sorry for not responding sooner. This is what I get if I don't respond immediately after checking PM's.

Your best bet would be for them to give you a prepaid Visa or Mastercard. You could sign yourself up for the 2 week trial and add the card any time during the trial (it's charged at the end of the trial), then you could update the credit card to your long term payment option during your last billing cycle if you elect to continue.
 
No problem. I'm the same way with email. Either you'll get a response in a few minutes or you'll never hear from me.

I appreciate the suggestion, I'll put that option on the Christmas list.

Thanks!
 
Is Pilot Edge only really supported for Cali?

If I want to do a long X/C, let's say from KMKC to somewhere in So. Cal would I only get ATC out west?
 
For now, yes. This is the coverage area: http://www.pilotedge.net/pages/operating-hours-and-service-area

Notice that SFO is an exception. It's outside of the primary coverage area, but we still support it. We're looking into adding 8-10 more Class B satellites across the country for people who want to fly jets over longer distances. The satellites would be worked as a single, virtual facility, with ZLA being a separate crew.

Right now, you'd call for ATC at the ZLA border and receive coverage from that point. There are 40 towered airports and 150+ non-towered airports in the primary coverage area today.
 
I signed up for the trial. I put in the flight plan I was new. Being as I only have about 6 hours on my private pilot training. And it was tough.. I just ended up disconnecting. I'd like to give it a try again some time. And I was just trying to fly VFR out of a towered airport haha.
 
Hi Ryan, it's no harder than flying in the real world, but it isn't any easier, either. You should be attempting flights that you'd want to do in the real world. If you haven't yet covered towered communications in your training or study, then you're not going to be comfortable doing it on any of the ATC networks.

Your best bet is to use these systems practice what you've been taught (or have self-studied), rather than jumping on and hoping it works out. It rarely works out well :)
 
There are really good videos and training on the PilotEdge website as well. Also if you listen to the PE receiver and get the idea of what is going on that can hep too. Listen to what is requested, what the controller gives back, and visualize what is going on. LiveATC. Net is good for that as well.

You can learn a lot on PE. I kept from embarrassing myself in the real world when KAHN had a displaced threshold for construction. They gave me 27@ B3 for the runway; since I had screwed that up at KSNA on PE once I read it back correctly. Imagine my surprise when the controller came back and said he appreciated the correct read back. Apparently I was the first of the day.

So you can learn a great deal. I still learn every time I log into PE.
 
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tngarner, I assume you mean the PilotEdge Receiver? Listening live is good if it's busy, but it's generally more efficient to listen to the all-day recordings. They have the silences removed and move along pretty quickly.

Sorry, lotsa typos in your message :) I'm happy to hear you were comfortable dealing with intersection departures when it came time!
 
Coma24, yes PilotEdge Receiver. Agree about the busy part. Edits made above.

And while we are on the topic of embarrassment, apparently hitting Post instead of save really will post your message instead of saving it for latter. These phones, auto text, and fat fingers will never catch on......
 
No matter how much you practice, ATC is always going to pull a surprise on you. Listen on the frequency to what the other pilots say. Don't worry about all the proper phraseology too much. Just communicate clearly who you are, where you are, and what you want to do. Read back pretty much everything. And if the controller gets testy, reply back with a cheerful reply!
 
I agree, but I'd say that once you've practiced enough, you've had enough 'new things' thrown at you such that if you do encounter something new in the wild, it's no big deal.
 
jcepiano said:
I can't recommend PilotEdge enough for any type of radio/IFR review. The controllers are held to the same standard of the FAA 7110.65 (the official regulation book of phraseology for ATC)
Click to expand...

Did my first flight on Pilotedge today.

What I disliked was the ATC using just letters for my call sign, so ES-FPC got shortened not to foxtrot-papa-charlie but eff-pee-cee. My mind just does not register single letters when being call on air. I guess the point of the phonetic alphabet is to make you recognize your call sign right away.

The second strange thing was I heard the ATC talking to people on multitudes of frequencies all across California, not just where I was flying, but not hearing what pilots on most of those frequencies answered. Not a big problem, just strange and different to real flying.

Will keep playing with it still. There's definitely value in it. Would just love if it would be similar to real ATC.
 
yhuubert said:
Did my first flight on Pilotedge today.

What I disliked was the ATC using just letters for my call sign, so ES-FPC got shortened not to foxtrot-papa-charlie but eff-pee-cee. My mind just does not register single letters when being call on air. I guess the point of the phonetic alphabet is to make you recognize your call sign right away.

The second strange thing was I heard the ATC talking to people on multitudes of frequencies all across California, not just where I was flying, but not hearing what pilots on most of those frequencies answered. Not a big problem, just strange and different to real flying.

Will keep playing with it still. There's definitely value in it. Would just love if it would be similar to real ATC.
Click to expand...

I am very surprised they did not use foxtrot papa Charlie. Have to say never heard them do that. Most likely a fluke.

As for hearing them talk to other traffic, that happens to me all the time time in the real world. At my home airport tower, ground, and clerance are all done by one controller. You will only hear the controller if you are not on one of the other frequencies at the time. Same thing happens with Atlanta Approch in the early morning. Seems that one controller does all of the north side of the ATL area until it gets busy. So I only hear those planes that are in my area talk back.
 
With work I get plenty of night IFR, but I did brush up in the sim a little before my ATP ride years ago.

Used Microsoft FSX with a satec yoke and pedals, worked fine, all in off craigslist was under 100 bucks.

I wouldn't pay more, FSX yoke/pedals and a yoke clip are really all you need, if you're really rusty invite your favorite CFII or working pilot to come by and work with you.
 
yhuubert said:
The second strange thing was I heard the ATC talking to people on multitudes of frequencies all across California, not just where I was flying, but not hearing what pilots on most of those frequencies answered. Not a big problem, just strange and different to real flying
Click to expand...

For me flying up and down CA this is the norm more than the exception. On my last flight a PAX asked "how come none of the other pilots are responding?"
 
Regarding hearing controllers working large amounts of airspace, yes, that is the case because short of having 400+ controllers on duty (resulting in operating costs of millions of dollars per month), we have to have the controllers work large chunks of airspace.

You will hear the other pilots if they're on the same frequency and within range.
 
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