Van's Aircraft - Dimpled Hole Cracking Reported On Some Laser Cut Parts

Daleandee

Daleandee

Final Approach
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Dale Andee
This is being discussed over on HBA. Didn't find it here ...

"Van’s has recently received reports from builders that cracks have formed in some parts with laser-cut holes while dimpling, or while riveting the dimpled holes. We are acting on those reports and investing time, resources, and energy to address customer concerns and provide answers."

https://www.vansaircraft.com/2023/0...impled-hole-cracking-on-some-laser-cut-parts/
 
Here's a close up photo of the concern with the laser holes (borrowed from HBA):

140113-db1c9811e67ca58c43ba58f666229e13.data
 
NoHeat said:
Where’s the crack in that photo?
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That's an undrilled, undimpled, unriveted hole with a notch on the outside. Match drilling the components may remove the notch. Or it may not. If it doesn't, that notch is a stress riser which *could* lead to cracks when the part is dimpled, riveted, or after hours in service.
 
masloki said:
The way Vans is responding is top notch.
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Vans is stopping future law suits for gross negligence with minimal cost to the company.

Top notch is throughly evaluating manufacturing process changes and effective quality control so stuff like this doesn’t happen.
 
Clip4 said:
Vans is stopping future law suits for gross negligence with minimal cost to the company.

Top notch is throughly evaluating manufacturing process changes and effective quality control so stuff like this doesn’t happen.
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I'd bet the initial parts were fine and that someone doing the machine setup at the supplier adjusted the cutting patterns to increase throughput. That kind of thing happens. But the *problem* was Van's QC didn't catch it for way too long. I can see some of these parts getting out into the wild, but over a year's worth? That's hard to understand.
 
By the way, what the heck is HBA?

Trying to figure out how vansairforce possibly maps to HBA.....
 
Looks like they did some long term testing with the -12 parts they lasered. Tested to 30k flight hours in a flight school environment with no failures, with both normal and over sized holes in the parts.

HBA== homebuiltaircraft.com
 
Craig said:
Looks like they did some long term testing with the -12 parts they lasered. Tested to 30k flight hours in a flight school environment with no failures, with both normal and over sized holes in the parts.

HBA== homebuiltaircraft.com
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But the thread mentioned and even the screenshot above is vansairforce :confused:

Screen Shot 2023-07-08 at 9.37.01 AM.png
 
Salty: There are quite a few people that are on both VAF and HBA, as well as POA....Big things like this often get cross posted between multiple boards. It's why, when I do, I try and reference the originating data in my first post or two on the subject. It helps cut down on the corruption of the info.
 
Craig said:
Salty: There are quite a few people that are on both VAF and HBA, as well as POA....Big things like this often get cross posted between multiple boards. It's why, when I do, I try and reference the originating data in my first post or two on the subject. It helps cut down on the corruption of the info.
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I thought that HBA died off when they started charging $100 a year to access the forums. With many other forums out there that do not charge for access and ask for donations instead I would have assumed that becoming a pay site would have chased away many regular posters. How active is it still?
 
Craig said:
Salty: There are quite a few people that are on both VAF and HBA, as well as POA....Big things like this often get cross posted between multiple boards. It's why, when I do, I try and reference the originating data in my first post or two on the subject. It helps cut down on the corruption of the info.
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Sorry about that. I picked the photo up from HBA ...
 
kmacht said:
I thought that HBA died off when they started charging $100 a year to access the forums. With many other forums out there that do not charge for access and ask for donations instead I would have assumed that becoming a pay site would have chased away many regular posters. How active is it still?
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HBA is not a subscription site. It survives on donations. The Biplane forum, on the other hand, requires dues, as I recall...
 
Daleandee said:
Sorry about that. I picked the photo up from HBA ...
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This is why I’m so confused. The url in your screenshot says vansAirForce.net
 
Salty said:
This is why I’m so confused. The url in your screenshot says vansAirForce.net
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Seems whomever posted it to HBA took that shot from Van's. Again, I didn't mean to make a mess ... :oops:
 
Daleandee said:
Seems whomever posted it to HBA took that shot from Van's. Again, I didn't mean to make a mess ... :oops:
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Ok, now I finally understand. It’s not a big deal, I was just confused.
 
Salty: Original discussion was on VAF. A poster on HBA started a thread talking about the problem and referenced the discussion on VAF. Several people that are members of both forums have posted on it at HBA. Daleandee brought it over from HBA, as there are several members of this board that are building RV's, and it's a good production question/problem/resolution no matter what is being built. Nothing wrong with the discussion in multiple places, as long as everyone knows where it came from and how to get to the original information.
 
Craig said:
Looks like they did some long term testing with the -12 parts they lasered. Tested to 30k flight hours in a flight school environment with no failures, with both normal and over sized holes in the parts.

HBA== homebuiltaircraft.com
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Since I’m nit picking, just to clarify, hba is not actually homebuiltaircraft.com, right, it’s homebuiltairplanes.com?
 
Clip4 said:
Vans is stopping future law suits for gross negligence with minimal cost to the company.

Top notch is throughly evaluating manufacturing process changes and effective quality control so stuff like this doesn’t happen.
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Well, at my company, the people that make things, and the people that deal with stuff when things break, are two different groups (or more). In this case, that they wrote up how it intersects internally and with 3rd parties, and that they are working with multiple people/teams, and seem to know who is doing what, tells me that this is being directed from very high up the chain. Agree - would be better if this didn't happen: efficiency begets complexity begets new failures modes begets new solutions begets simplicity and then the cycle repeats.
 
Salty: Yep, you are correct....It's one site that I only have to hit three keys to log in on and hadn't remembered the correct name....:oops:
 
kyleb said:
HBA is not a subscription site. It survives on donations. The Biplane forum, on the other hand, requires dues, as I recall...
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Maybe we are talking about different sites then. Homebuiltairplanes.com is very much a subscription site that charges 9.99 a month or $99 a year to read anything in the forums beyond the first post.

“Access to Homebuilt Airplanes is subscription based. Subscriptions are only $99.99/year or $9.99/month to gain access to this great community and unmatched library of airplane knowledge. “

Which site/forum are you referring to? Homebuiltaircraft.com doesn’t seem to be a valid site.
 
Craig said:
Salty: Yep, you are correct....It's one site that I only have to hit three keys to log in on and hadn't remembered the correct name....:oops:
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All good. I had read about the issue on vaf then saw the url for vaf, so I couldn’t figure out where Hba fit in.

I’m not completely convinced it was that big an issue, but I’m not affected by it, so no skin in the game. I’m glad vans is dealing with it.
 
That cut looks like an air plasma and not a fiber laser.
 
kmacht said:
Maybe we are talking about different sites then. Homebuiltairplanes.com is very much a subscription site that charges 9.99 a month or $99 a year to read anything in the forums beyond the first post.

“Access to Homebuilt Airplanes is subscription based. Subscriptions are only $99.99/year or $9.99/month to gain access to this great community and unmatched library of airplane knowledge. “

Which site/forum are you referring to? Homebuiltaircraft.com doesn’t seem to be a valid site.
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Very strange. I'm talking about the forums at homebuiltairplanes.com. No subscription for me... I promise.

Here's a link to the "new posts" on the forum.

https://www.homebuiltairplanes.com/forums/whats-new/posts/3033616/
 
nauga said:
Maybe you were grandfathered or something?
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Must have been, 'cause I'm not paying $100/yr for any board. Maybe they have a riffraff filter that gives a discount for being an asshat.
 
I just created a new account and without having to pay I could see the forums initially but the second time I went back all the replies to the topics are greyed out. I guess I’m done with the site. Back when it was donation supported and I was building my sonex I visited pretty regularly. I’m not paying $99 a year though. I suspect that if they keep that policy they won’t be around for much longer. There are plenty of other sites with the same or better content that don’t cost $100 a year.
 
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Back on the hole topic it sure looks like they have a backlash problem on one of the axis of the machine creating the holes. If looking at the hole in the picture you can see that the anomalies are both right where the x axis would reverse direction when cutting the shape of the hole. Of course in my job I have seen and analyzed many close up borescope views of damaged jet engine parts and have learned that by looking at something that zoomed in even minor issues can look more dramatic than they actually are.
 
kmacht said:
Back on the hole topic it sure looks like they have a backlash problem on one of the axis of the machine creating the holes. If looking at the hole in the picture you can see that the anomalies are both right where the x axis would reverse direction when cutting the shape of the hole. Of course in my job I have seen and analyzed many close up borescope views of damaged jet engine parts and have learned that by looking at something that zoomed in even minor issues can look more dramatic than they actually are.
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I saw that too. I run a cnc plasma, and cutting thin metals at a very high speed will have the same result. It also looks like there's a lead in issue. I'm not too familiar with fiber laser, but the cuts on aluminum I have seen at expo's look MUCH cleaner than that.
 
Here's some really good photos that show what the problem is with most of these kits that were created during the Covid period. Looking closely at the photos towards the end shows clearly what the problem. But Van's is taking care of this ...

photos.google.com

RV-14 Laser Cut Parts (Empennage Kit 2022)

44 new items · Album by Andrew King
photos.google.com photos.google.com

Here's one example:

1692305252897.png
 
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