Value of the instrument rating, revisited...

deyoung

deyoung

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Chris
I'm sure I'm opening a can of worms here, but hey, it's PoA, it's what we do right?

I'm one of those "been meaning to" work on an instrument rating for quite awhile but never quite got momentum going to do it, and I go back and forth on the "is it really worth it?" question from time to time, so throwing it out there. The large majority of people seem to say yes, absolutely, get it and why are you even asking duh?

So, is it really completely a no-brainer?

I get many of the pros, so I don't think I need to enumerate them here (and I'm sure people will help me with that anyway :) ). There do seem to be some cons also though. Cost, obviously. More cost in probably updating my aircraft to be a viable IFR platform---it is technically capable now, but only /A. One of the large cons seems to be that it gives you many, many more ways to screw up; now, most no-go weather is not even a decision, and the pilot deviation opportunities for a VFR pilot are relatively simple and obvious.

Also, I fly primarily in the Southwest; most of the IMC to be found here is either thunderstorms or ice (or both), so I'm not flying there rating or not. (My wife occasionally makes noises about moving the the pacific northwest though; if that ever happens I realize that's a whole new game.) I'm currently a little over 300 hour pilot, about half that XC.

Thoughts?
 
Cost is a rounding error in aviation, if you own your own airplane. 15 hours with a CFI, 12 if the CFI you did your private with was a -II too, plus the checkride. What's that, just under 2AMU. That's not a lot is it?

It makes you a better pilot, makes you understand the national airspace system better, and gives you a tool that can get you (legally) out of a pinch.
Best $2k I've ever spent, for sure. I paid for 12 hours to my -II and my plane costs, plus DPE. Less than 2k all in.

The days when you have to shoot an ILS to the ragged edge minimums are rare. But the days when you have to punch a 700ft overcast layer are very common. Not necessarily in the SW, but everywhere else in the country. Just get it done.
 
I recall a long history of threads concerning this exact question with a long time POA (and rec.aviation...) user who is still quite active here and who definitely enjoyed Oshkosh once again this year. He repeatedly made the case that IFR was not for him. As a newly minted instrument pilot and active traveler, I argued for the IR.

We’ve both changed aircraft and life has gone on. In retrospect, we were both ‘right’ relative to our missions, interests and just plain personal preferences. He is an active VFR pilot and I file IFR on practically every flight.

I know that we’ve both enjoyed our flying immensely and that we’ve both made the right decisions.

So maybe the big question is what do you want to do and how do you want to do it? What makes it fun and fulfilling for you? What fits your mind’s eye?


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Walboy said:
Sounds like you're looking for reasons not to do it.
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No... but maybe I'm looking at the mantra of "get the instrument rating because of course that's the right thing to do" and want to dig a little rather than just take that for granted because it's the thing everyone says.

Also, a previous reply put it a little over 1 AMU, which sounds really really low to me, though maybe I'm wrong.

On the other hand, you're right, it's an issue trying to get in and out of LA and San Diego, which has come up for me only rarely, but more than never. I have the money; time is harder, but I can probably make that work too.

Bill Watson said:
I recall a long history of threads concerning this exact question with a long time POA (and rec.aviation...) user who is still quite active here and who definitely enjoyed Oshkosh once again this year. He repeatedly made the case that IFR was not for him. As a newly minted instrument pilot and active traveler, I argued for the IR.

We’ve both changed aircraft and life has gone on. In retrospect, we were both ‘right’ relative to our missions, interests and just plain personal preferences. He is an active VFR pilot and I file IFR on practically every flight.

I know that we’ve both enjoyed our flying immensely and that we’ve both made the right decisions.

So maybe the big question is what do you want to do and how do you want to do it? What makes it fun and fulfilling for you? What fits your mind’s eye?
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This, I think, is what I'm figuring out, and I'm looking for other people's experiences to help inform my decision. I suspect I'll still go ahead and get it, probably when the weather here cools off a bit... but then the voice in my head says "what's really limiting your flying time now, anyway? It's almost never flyable IMC conditions...." :)
 
Walboy said:
I think $2k is pretty low. Examiners are running $600, the written is $140. I also think 12 hours with a CFII might not adequately prepare you. But hey, what do I know?
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12 hours with a CFII, call it $50/hr, $600. DPE $600. Written $140. My plane was $55 an hour. Thats $2k. My DPE was a bit less than that.
12 hours will easily prepare you if you prepare yourself. I had a great CFII, but we could've done it in half the time.
 
Walboy said:
I know the flight school at Marana has a simulator and could cut the cost of training. I recommend talking with the owner there if you haven't already.

http://www.maranaflightschool.com/
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Yeah, Mike Matthews -- very nice guy, he did my last BFR actually, and when/if I jump in to the IR he's very likely who I will use. But since I have my own airplane, the sim is a little less savings, but still, every little bit...
 
some thoughts...for what they're worth. ;)

You've got a cost advantage with your own airplane, as others have said. Think of it as an expensive flight review. :rolleyes: The lack of serious IFR weather in your area makes being a /A airplane a lot less of a detriment to actual operations. But if you do pursue it, make sure you and your instructor go to SOCAL for a couple of days.

On the downside, you're going to have to put in significant effort just to stay current, much less proficient. If you move to somplace with more IFR weather, it's still going to cost you some instructional time to get your skills back up to par. You'll also want to get some quality instruction if and when you upgrade your panel, whether you do that before or after the rating.

As far as opinions, keep in mind my background...I've made my living with an instrument rating for almost 30 years now. I've also had some jobs that taught and required "significant" VFR skills.

I owned a VFR-only airplane for 19 years, traveling fairly extensively in it. Most of the times I've been stranded for weather, it wasn't such that a light single would have been viable IFR anyway...embedded thunderstorms, ice, etc. I'd say that I've spent far more time flying VFR when I couldn't have gone IFR than the other way around. But my VFR minimums are pretty low, and those skills also require significant effort to retain proficiency.

As a single guy, I saw no need for an instrument rating for personal flying. As a married guy, I'd change my tune a bit...not because of risk factor, and not for the crappy weather days, but because of all the time I've spent in turbulence below the clouds that I could avoid by going though a layer and getting on top so my wife wouldn't get sick.

So the bottom line...a happy wife is a happy life, and if she's happier with the airplane when I'm IFR, that's a big decision maker for me.:D
 
Walboy said:
I disagree with this. But just one person's opinion.
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Well, I think the key qualifier in that statement is “if you prepare yourself”. Consider the average 10day cram course is at least 4hrs a day x 10days= 40hrs (by my math anyway). So prepare yourself by flying lots of approaches VFR with an IR rated pilot to teach you the basics, spend lots of time turning knobs (or touching icons) so you can program whatever approach someone throws at you, maybe 30-40 hrs total, and yeah, 12hrs with a CFII might do it. So, I’ll second that opinion.
 
Well, I can't do the cram course because I have a day job and the "cram" schedule just won't work for me with work + life + then go fly. The cram course also won't work for me because I don't learn terribly well that way; I can learn it all and retain it well enough for the test, but it'll mostly be gone in a month or two and that's no good.

That said, I'm not under any real pressure to do it faster than not anyway, so that's good. I can't imagine any realistic path that gets me there in the $2k range, but I'm ok going over that within reason.

I see the appeal of going over a layer to get on top for smoother air, and I imagine my wife would love that too, but my airplane has a service ceiling of 12,500, so I doubt that'll be a thing too often. :)
 
I got my IR in 2000. Used it "for real" (though purely recreational flying) a bunch the first year punching in and out of SoCal marine layers of various thickness. I then spent the next few years being a slave to currency, though realistically not necessarily proficiency for much. Then I finally dropped it.

Could I get myself out of trouble today? Perhaps. But I certainly don't fly counting on that. It's really not the point.

The IR ticket, learned properly and not just rote, makes you a better overall (vfr) pilot than not. You're more aware of activity and traffic around you. You're more in tune with flight planning. You learn greater precision and performance control. You gain confidence. And you gain far greater awareness of airspace and ATC. Plus, ultimately, you're advancing your craft, not just poking holes in the sky while you earn the rating.

I also think getting a tailwheel endorsement and some light aerobatics are great overall additions.

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Like anything in recreational aviation, the two first questions are money and time.

I flew for about 20 years without one, and found with planning and reasonable expectations of myself and my airplane I could travel and do plenty of stuff without it.

Then I got it done and really enjoy the added flexibility and skills and it did help my flying precision and a number of other things, like all training does.

The other day I went up in uncommon hours of rain in Denver when the weather looked non-convective and flyable and shot a couple of approaches in the goo, and managed to “luck” out and get one to within the “already poised to push the throttle up and go around” point of minimums and broke out.

It’s fun, it’s challenging, and I completely get it if you’re in the Southwest and rarely see weather where you need it. I’ve gone in and out of currency over the years since I’ve had it and always go do an IPC to get fully back on the horse whenever that naturally happens with our good weather here. (We have bad weather but it’s not usually safely flyable in a piston single, sometimes not in anything.)

Looking forward to teaching it, too, and getting some folks around here up in some actual whenever possible.

If you travel broadly, once you hit the Midwest or any of the coastal areas, there’s a lot more reason to have it. Like someone else mentioned, climbing up through it and breaking out of the slag on top where it’s usually smooth and gorgeous out after a period of time in solid IMC ends up less stressful than slogging it out below the clouds and avoiding them. That’s quite nice.

There’s a level of care that must be ingrained for someone doing it recreationally to make good weather decisions and know their limitations. I don’t claim to be any hotshot IFR pilot by any means, just not enough actual around here to be up in it for any significant number of hours. To stay proficient it’s a lot of hood work.

Up to you. You don’t HAVE to do it by any means. Also you mentioned needing to upgrade your airplane. Technically you don’t have to. You could stir things up a bit by renting something well equipped for IFR flight, earn the rating, and then decide about your own airplane. Or even rent to stay current and proficient and use the rental for some trips. All sorts of options there. But again, I understand the desire to fly one’s own and get the most utility out of it. Definitely don’t have to buy piles of avionics and go overboard upgrading just to earn the ticket. If you end up liking flying in actual and the system, you may decide to upgrade to a completely different airframe. Never know.
 
mtuomi said:
12 hours with a CFII, call it $50/hr, $600. DPE $600. Written $140. My plane was $55 an hour. Thats $2k. My DPE was a bit less than that.
12 hours will easily prepare you if you prepare yourself. I had a great CFII, but we could've done it in half the time.
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12 hours is assuming your primary CFI was a -II, and that's only the dual. You still need another 25 hours hood time, for a total instrument time of at least 40 hours by the time you take the checkride. It doesn't all have to be in an actual airplane; you can count 10 or 20 hours of dual in an ATD or sim, depending on the type of system used. But you still need more than 12 hours; call it 17, at the very least, assuming your CFII has access to a sim. Last I checked, if you use a safety pilot for some of the time, all of that time has to be in the airplane; AFAIK the recent policy change allowing use of sim/ATD time without an instructor for currency does not affect the experience requirements for the rating itself.
 
deyoung said:
This, I think, is what I'm figuring out, and I'm looking for other people's experiences to help inform my decision. I suspect I'll still go ahead and get it, probably when the weather here cools off a bit... but then the voice in my head says "what's really limiting your flying time now, anyway? It's almost never flyable IMC conditions...." :)
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It's not an easy decision. Factor in a safety pilot after the checkride since you will find it difficult to maintain currency, not to mention proficiency, otherwise.

Dunno whether my experience helps or not. My instrument training was in New England. Decent amount of clouds, including conditions low enough firvtwo real missed approaches. First solo was a cross country, most of it in the clouds, with an ILS to about 300 above mins at the end.

Two weeks later, I moved to Colorado where my rating was hardly used. Hardly, but it was used. Mostly on trips out if the area, but the eastern plains tends to have a brief period of flyable around June, give or take a few weeks. Also used it on trips where IFR is just procedurally easier, even in severe clear conditions. Now, in NC, I use it more often again.

Overall, I'm glad I did it. And if I were advising myself, I'd still do it, even if I did it while living in Colorado. My net bottom line is the value of the training itself. Recurrent training is a good thing and combining it with something which increases knowledge and proficiency even better. It doesn't have to be the IR, but it's a good option which becomes useful.
 
Getting it is one thing. You have to ask yourself if you’ll be able to keep current. It sounds like you don’t have a lot of opportunity to see IMC. Will you have the safety pilots available to do some approaches every 6 months? A lot of ppl do run out and get it but don’t maintain it. That can lead to complacency when heading out in the real junk.
 
It's a bit like asking "Should I really fit shoulder belts?" There's an obvious answer. Nobody is forcing you to change your personal minimums after you get it, so that argument doesn't hold water. Even if you never fly IFR again you'll be a better, more knowledgeable pilot, and maybe have a skill that'll get you out of trouble one day.
 
For me, some of the must usefulness I get out of the IFR ticket is being able to file on marginal VFR days to avoid dodging clouds and inadvertent scud running.
 
I completed all of my hours, but didn't pull the trigger on the written. I actually enjoyed the training, I found a good bit (but not all) of it interesting and enjoyable. I keep trying to convince myself to actually finish it up, but here are my reservations:

1) I'm not sure I fly enough to stay proficient at it.
2) I'm also not sure who I'd use as a safety pilot, so I'd probably need to pay a CFI for all the recurring training.
3) I generally don't enjoy flying myself/passengers in inclement or bouncy weather.
4) My CFI and I were chatting during training and I randomly mentioned that I wasn't completely comfortable flying a single at night (although I do it on rare occasions) and he said something like "Flying IFR is pretty much the same thing as flying at night". I'm not sure what he was shooting for, but that made me less interested in flying IFR and not more.

All that said, I'm confident the training made my tolerances tighter and made me a better pilot and I don't regret the training at all.
 
Challenged said:
I completed all of my hours, but didn't pull the trigger on the written. I actually enjoyed the training, I found a good bit (but not all) of it interesting and enjoyable. I keep trying to convince myself to actually finish it up, but here are my reservations:

2) I'm also not sure who I'd use as a safety pilot, so I'd probably need to pay a CFI for all the recurring training.
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I see that comment a lot. Doesn't anyone have any friends who fly?

I don't get into the clag nearly enough for currency, so I combine flights with a friend with the annual IPC I get (another excellent option, especially if you don't have friends and need to fly with a CFI anyway).

But my best currency method was when I lived in Colorado. My regular flying buddy and I flew about once a month. We'd meet after work, fly and each do a couple of approaches and other tasks, and then go our for dinner and a beer.
 
I recently completed my IR after a long gap of not flying. For me, it's wasn't just about punching through clouds. It's about having confidence in the system. Confidence to go on real trips. Confidence that I can handle the aircraft if I hit IMC. Confidence to hold the needle and the altitude. Confidence to nail the standard-rate and timed turns. Confidence on the radio. Confidence in Class Bravo.

Besides the rating, it was also good for me personally. It's been a while since I had to hunker down and study. I had a few issues along the way. My CFII was fired, the rental I was flying got sold, and my original DPE went out on medical leave. All of these challenges added to my resolve. It wasn't easy and it wasn't cheap; but it was certainly worth it! Passing that checkride brought back the same sense of pride and sense of accomplishment that I felt when I passed my PPL checkride 32 years ago.
 
FlyingTiger said:
For me, some of the must usefulness I get out of the IFR ticket is being able to file on marginal VFR days to avoid dodging clouds and inadvertent scud running.
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Yes, same here.

However therein lies the trap for many and the challenge. To fly so-called light IFR, one must stay proficient in ‘all’ IFR. Staying proficient per the regulations is the minimum.

It’s very much worth getting the rating and not using it. It will make you a better pilot. Picking it back up later if your needs change will be much easier as well.

For better and worse most of the utility you’ll get no matter where you fly will be filing and flying on marginal VFR days. And that makes staying proficient an additional task.


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I'll add to the can of worms.
The PPL, Recreational and Sport ticket all need more hours under the hood so when someone gets caught in IMC, they have enough skill to survive the experience.
The current philosophy of "Just turn 180 degrees and fly back" is total BS to anyone who lives in an area where fog can form instantaneously, and where ceilings can drop in a matter of minutes, trapping you in a valley in the mountains. You need real world skills to successfully fly out of situations like that, and the current curriculum doe not provide them.
 
Shepherd said:
I'll add to the can of worms.
The PPL, Recreational and Sport ticket all need more hours under the hood so when someone gets caught in IMC, they have enough skill to survive the experience.
The current philosophy of "Just turn 180 degrees and fly back" is total BS to anyone who lives in an area where fog can form instantaneously, and where ceilings can drop in a matter of minutes, trapping you in a valley in the mountains. You need real world skills to successfully fly out of situations like that, and the current curriculum doe not provide them.
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I agree 100%. But to stir the pot a little more, to acquire and maintain those particular skills doesn't require the full instrument rating curriculum, either. It does require recurrent hood time, flying the airplane on gauges alone, in several different flight attitudes (i.e. straight and level, turning, climbing, descending), practice recovering from unusual attitudes, etc., all well over and above the required 3 hours in primary training, and as I said, as *recurrent* training so that the skill doesn't evaporate. But the full IR program is overkill for that purpose, focusing as much as it does on flying approaches and on the regulations that apply to flying IFR in the system.

That is not to say that I would discourage someone from getting the instrument rating. I agree with everyone here that the training will make you a better and safer pilot. But the difficulty of maintaining proficiency is also real. In Michigan, it was easy to do a solo run in hard IMC every few months, shooting approaches to a couple hundred feet above MDA or DA. Here in Vermont that kind of flyable IFR weather is quite rare, since when it is IFR here, it is usually either VLIFR (i.e., dense fog, 0/0 conditions) or else icy. I also have yet to find a good CFII to do an IPC with; the two IPCs I have done with the only instructor based at my field were nearly worthless, since he refuses to teach (or has forgotten how) and is basically nothing but an expensive safety pilot who doesn't even have the time to sit with me for 6 approaches.

Even so, I much prefer flying IFR in this region to VFR, especially at night, even in severe clear conditions, and would want to get the IR even if I didn't already have it. It all depends on one's personal situation and priorities.
 
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deyoung said:
Also, I fly primarily in the Southwest; most of the IMC to be found here is either thunderstorms or ice (or both), so I'm not flying there rating or not.
Thoughts?
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I'm not IR yet. I have all the hood time completed with a CFII, only lack the written and long XC (and of course the practical). Planning on finishing, but work is ALWAYS in the way. I started mine right after the PPL and really regret doing that ... think you being at 300 is pretty good timing. I fly mainly long XC VFR ... been to SoCAL numerous times and have been delayed maybe an hour on departures, worst instrument delay was San Antonio (6 hours) ... had to over-night near home due to unforcast high wind 60+ MPH when it was supposed to be calm so that was the only over-night weather delay. I fly a LOT of night flights here in the desert, and the training is useful for that.

Tucson weather is same as mine and hard to justify IFR training as there isn't any basically around here.

Challenged said:
I completed all of my hours, but didn't pull the trigger on the written.
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Same here, and I'll eventually wrap it up.
 
azure said:
12 hours is assuming your primary CFI was a -II, and that's only the dual. You still need another 25 hours hood time, for a total instrument time of at least 40 hours by the time you take the checkride. It doesn't all have to be in an actual airplane; you can count 10 or 20 hours of dual in an ATD or sim, depending on the type of system used. But you still need more than 12 hours; call it 17, at the very least, assuming your CFII has access to a sim. Last I checked, if you use a safety pilot for some of the time, all of that time has to be in the airplane; AFAIK the recent policy change allowing use of sim/ATD time without an instructor for currency does not affect the experience requirements for the rating itself.
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I noticed that when you have access to your own airplane, you can fly with a safety pilot for free. Plenty of hour builders everywhere looking to log that time.
 
AndrewX said:
….It's about having confidence in the system. Confidence to go on real trips. Confidence that I can handle the aircraft if I hit IMC. Confidence to hold the needle and the altitude. Confidence to nail the standard-rate and timed turns. Confidence on the radio. Confidence in Class Bravo....
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I would say I can do all that, minus the IMC part. I don't want to spend x dollars so I can do a timed standard rate turn. I know it's more than that, but other than experience flying in clouds, I am decent at all the other stuff.
 
I'll say this again here. A principal value in having an IR is to take all the stress out of flying MVFR. No getting caught on top, no worries about scud running down low VFR when you could be cruising comfortably and smoothly in sunshine on top, no big worries if your destination weather is a little worse than expected, and many fewer issues traveling through class B airspace, or in the east, into or out of the DC SFRA. Having an IR gives you more safety options. It's nice to have more options. You can use the IR as conservatively or aggressively as you like. No one will force you to fly in weather you are not comfortable with

The biggest challenge is currency, especially if you don't push the weather on trips. So do an IPC every 6 months (you can double up for a flight review with many instructors), or cultivate some friendly safety pilots. But do an IPC every now and then to get good feedback and refresher training.

In short...yeah just do it.
 
chemgeek said it best imo....

use it as much or as little as you want...
 
The question “is it worth it?” is completely up to you. Even if you never use it if you simply want to do it then yes, it’s worth it. So long as you know you can’t just get the rating, forget about it then two years later fly into IMC and figure you’ll be okay. Lots of people get the rating and then never use it. Other people sometimes get the rating and then fly into stuff they never would have gotten into without it and get in trouble. You don’t want to do that.
 
deyoung said:
I'm sure I'm opening a can of worms here, but hey, it's PoA, it's what we do right?

I'm one of those "been meaning to" work on an instrument rating for quite awhile but never quite got momentum going to do it, and I go back and forth on the "is it really worth it?" question from time to time, so throwing it out there. The large majority of people seem to say yes, absolutely, get it and why are you even asking duh?

So, is it really completely a no-brainer?

I get many of the pros, so I don't think I need to enumerate them here (and I'm sure people will help me with that anyway :) ). There do seem to be some cons also though. Cost, obviously. More cost in probably updating my aircraft to be a viable IFR platform---it is technically capable now, but only /A. One of the large cons seems to be that it gives you many, many more ways to screw up; now, most no-go weather is not even a decision, and the pilot deviation opportunities for a VFR pilot are relatively simple and obvious.

Also, I fly primarily in the Southwest; most of the IMC to be found here is either thunderstorms or ice (or both), so I'm not flying there rating or not. (My wife occasionally makes noises about moving the the pacific northwest though; if that ever happens I realize that's a whole new game.) I'm currently a little over 300 hour pilot, about half that XC.

Thoughts?
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Well, I live in the Pacific Northwe(s)t. I have the rating, but I'm not current. I got it to be able to punch through a layer over the home drome and then fly the rest of the way in the clear. If I had to fly all the way across the state of Washington in the clag, I'd drive. Single pilot IFR is too much work. When was the last time I logged actual? About 6 years ago. Now, that brings up the reason I'm not current. Too much work involved in staying current, and more importantly, competent. Current and competent are two different things. I know a retired airline pilot who won't fly IFR around here, either. For the same reason. Flying light aircraft is fun. If you positively have to be somewhere, drive. If it's too far, buy a ticket on an airline. Yes, it is true that getting your IR will make you a better pilot, but you have to use it to stay good at it.

That said, with the weather the way it is this week I'm taking off tomorrow morning from KOLM to S95 to pick up some folks for Angel Flight West. Taking them to KHIO where they will get a car ride to the hospital. I then fly home to KOLM. Another pilot takes them home later in the afternoon. I'll save you the trouble of looking it up, S95 is on the western outskirts of Walla Walla. Pass over a winery owned by one of my dad's former vet students on approach from the west. I won't have time to grab a car and say hi. Darn it. Leave KOLM at 0730 PDT, arrive S95 about 0900. Leave S95 at 1000, arrive at KHIO about 1130. Leave there as soon a I can and I'm back at KOLM in about 40 minutes. That's what flying is about, saving time and having fun.
 
I recently got mine.

The hardest part was grinding through the written material. The actual flying IMO wasn't terribly hard once you've flown a couple of approaches and get an understanding of it. After that it's all practice like anything else.

Since I got my rating I've actually climbed or descended through cloud layers maybe twice. See, this is how things work. Once you get the rating you'll never see IMC on a day you want to fly again(unless it's thunderstorms or icing conditions). Well there's that and a completely unrelated mechanical problem that's left me grounded for months but that's a whole other thing.

I'm glad I got it though, I now have an option should I need it and it made my insurance premium lower. The flying was fun, the written is misery.
 
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