V8 172

Would you put yourself, and your family, behind an unproven engine combination even if it was 1/3rd the cost of the proven variants?
Who said anything had to be unproven? If they prove it out on one airplane, I'd be fine using that same setup in another airplane, sure. Essentially I'm saying that if they go through trials and it proves to be a good option, why not allow it in any airframe that had the same power package? Instead of having to verify each application of the engine, just have it be a direct replacement for a group of approved Lycosaurus models. The home built and experimental birds seem to get by using whatever they want for engines (obviously most still choose a lyco, conti, or rotax), no reason a non-commercial bug smasher should be restricted.
 
Other than it being fee based (I knew that), none of that explains why them having our regulatory agency (FAA) would save or stimulate their GA, however.
As I mentioned, those were only 2 examples and that PoA is not a big enough platform to go into the entire details of the differences between the EASA vs the FAA. Unfortunately your answer is very typical of the average American weekend aviator or the domestically limited commercial aviator on this topic. But suffice to say, if there was no real difference between the European and US aviation regulatory systems why do so many people go out of their way to keep their aircraft under an N registration in Europe vs the registration of their home country? And it has zero to do with taxes.

FYI: Once you actually work within aviation environments where there are representations of various global regulatory systems it becomes quite obvious the benefits of one system over the other. And in the close to 40 years of working in that environment the FAA system has yet to finish 2nd in any of those comparisons, by a long shot. So ramble as you must but the facts speak for themselves.
 
why not allow it in any airframe that had the same power package? Instead of having to verify each application of the engine, just have it be a direct replacement for a group of approved Lycosaurus models.
FYI: That option is currently available to them in the existing STC framework. Using the AML-STC route vs a Standard STC they can use base data from one TC model (the 172) and apply it to other TC models. It's the same process used for batteries, fabric systems, and other alterations that can span more than one type certificate. But that decision rests solely with the STC applicant.
 
As I mentioned, those were only 2 examples and that PoA is not a big enough platform to go into the entire details of the differences between the EASA vs the FAA. Unfortunately your answer is very typical of the average American weekend aviator or the domestically limited commercial aviator on this topic. But suffice to say, if there was no real difference between the European and US aviation regulatory systems why do so many people go out of their way to keep their aircraft under an N registration in Europe vs the registration of their home country? And it has zero to do with taxes.

FYI: Once you actually work within aviation environments where there are representations of various global regulatory systems it becomes quite obvious the benefits of one system over the other. And in the close to 40 years of working in that environment the FAA system has yet to finish 2nd in any of those comparisons, by a long shot. So ramble as you must but the facts speak for themselves.

You still have t described it.

But thanks for the brush off and veiled insults for no reason whatsoever.

Clearly it’s more expensive over there. You still haven’t even provided a single aviation (not taxation) regulation that would help their recreational GA, which you keep moving away from when responding toward business aircraft.

Very few recreational GA aircraft over there are trying to maintain an N number, AFAIK. Do they when imported?

If you didn’t want to discuss it, why bring it up? Which FAA regs would make at least a 25% increase overnight in European recreational GA?

I still contend none would. Other than the fee based taxation they use to pay for it all, vs us just taking out more loans for ours.

But the initial assertion was that they’d like our regulators (and regulations) better, not our freebies financed on a credit card. Which regs?
 
I love it. A career mechanic that earns his living working within the regulatory system and a government employee act all smug and pedantic about how regulatory structures don’t adversely affect innovation. Ok so let me try this again.

No I’m not saying our regulatory structure is the only reason for a dwindling GA market or innovation. What I am saying is the current FAA regulatory structure on GA is an unnecessary burden that is contributing to the stagnation of our hobby. I’ll even go further and tell you my expectations as a tax payer are that the government has to prove to me there is a positive cost benefit for the regulation. I don’t have to prove it’s a burden. The assumption in the begin of every conversation about government regulation is the government is a burden and an impediment to growth until proven innocent. So you ask me how I think the government is in the way. My response to you is prove it’s not. We should be skeptical of all regulation. Guilty until proven innocent.

also. I don’t give half a crap what anyone outside the US has for regulation, taxes or anything else. Any argument to justify what we have by comparison to how it is elsewhere is like beating me up and saying “hey it could be worse. That guy over there was beaten to death. At least you’re alive”.
 
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No I’m not saying our regulatory structure is the only reason for a dwindling GA market or innovation. What I am saying is the current FAA regulatory structure on GA is an unnecessary burden that is contributing to the stagnation of our hobby.

The "current FAA regulatory structure on GA" hasn't changed that much in the past 50 years. In fact, the majority of it was there during the GA boom of the 50's thru the early 80's (you remember that, right?)

You want to tilt at windmills and blame the decline of GA on the FAA, while totally ignoring the conditions that have actually led to the decline. Remember LSA's? Remember how introducing them was going to "revitalize" GA?

Textron, Piper and Mooney would be cranking out airplanes if the market was there, it's not. Conversely, how do you explain Robinson Helicopter? They are building helicopters at a record pace, so much so one will get on a waiting list to buy one. And they introduced a new model with a new engine, and it's selling. Somehow that "unnecessary burden" of regulation didn't slow or stop them.

Do you think that Cessna, Beech, Mooney and Piper envisioned their products having a lifespan of 50+ years? Soon the oldest Bonanza's will be 73 years old, and most Mooney's are 50+. This has attributed to their decline in market as well since people hang on to the old models rather than buy new. I see the same thing going on in the large boat market, which recently saw SeaRay exit and others cut production.

Your "hobby" is stagnating because of lack of interest, and those that were around in the 50's thru 80's are thinning out now. The newer generation is not interested. I can point out other "hobbies" that are in decline as well.
 
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The "current FAA regulatory structure on GA" hasn't changed that much in the past 50 years. In fact, the majority of it was there during the GA boom of the 50's thru the early 80's (you remember that, right?)

You want to tilt at windmills and blame the decline of GA on the FAA, while totally ignoring the conditions that have actually led to the decline. Remember LSA's? Remember how introducing them was going to "revitalize" GA?

Textron, Piper and Mooney would be cranking out airplanes if the market was there, it's not. Conversely, how do you explain Robinson Helicopter? They are building helicopters at a record pace, so much so one will get on a waiting list to buy one. And they introduced a new model with a new engine, and it's selling. Somehow that "unnecessary burden" of regulation didn't slow or stop them.

Your "hobby" is stagnating because of lack of interest, and those that were around in the 50's thru 80's are thinning out now. The newer generation is not interested. I can point out other "hobbies" that are in decline as well.
Having dealt with the FAA as a business owner I can absolutely without a doubt tell you that the FAA is a huge burden. It’s not alone though there are plenty of agencies contributing to the status of our ever growing regulatory burden.

I was not around for the boom in the 50’s and frankly it’s not required to have a valid opinion.

nothing you said negates what I’ve said. The FAA should have to prove their worth. That’s what we should require of all regulatory agencies. You call that tilting against a windmill. I see your attitude as laziness and just accepting whatever comes from the government.

once again I never said the FAA was 100% responsible. I also never said no one could ever succeed in the regulatory environment. You have mentioned Robinson several times. Just because one or two companies manage to stay in business does not validate your opinion the regulations are reasonable.

at this point it’s very obvious you and I will not agree and any further discussion will require discussion of things the ROC prohibit on this board. Thanks for keeping it marginally civil.
 
Having dealt with the FAA as a business owner I can absolutely without a doubt tell you that the FAA is a huge burden. It’s not alone though there are plenty of agencies contributing to the status of our ever growing regulatory burden.

I was not around for the boom in the 50’s and frankly it’s not required to have a valid opinion.

nothing you said negates what I’ve said. The FAA should have to prove their worth. That’s what we should require of all regulatory agencies. You call that tilting against a windmill. I see your attitude as laziness and just accepting whatever comes from the government.

once again I never said the FAA was 100% responsible. I also never said no one could ever succeed in the regulatory environment. You have mentioned Robinson several times. Just because one or two companies manage to stay in business does not validate your opinion the regulations are reasonable.

at this point it’s very obvious you and I will not agree and any further discussion will require discussion of things the ROC prohibit on this board. Thanks for keeping it marginally civil.

"Marginally civil"?? Please show me where I've even got anywhere close to being uncivil. On the other hand, while I discussed facts and issues, you tried to turn it into personal attacks and obfuscations.

My attitude is not laziness as you imply, it's based in reality, which you refuse to accept. It's always easier to find someone or something to blame for what you see as inequalities. Understanding markets and market forces helps in realizing why certain things make money (expand) while others lose (decline).

My example of Robinson Helicopter is right on topic of the thread. It shows they have a market, are filling the market and doing so by complying with a regulatory requirement. They are successful due to realizing a market and filling it. The OP topic is an engine design using an automotive engine and reduction drive. From what I see, they are looking for an alternative market for their product. Maybe they will fill that niche, and by doing so will enable them to get certified and start selling to the certified market. Maybe in that time frame they will achieve enough data to get a better idea of the viability of their product.

Maybe the FAA should invalidate all airworthiness certificates past, say 30 years old, and create an "owner airworthiness" category, and let the owners do as they please. Of course that would mean no more flights out of the country, difficulty in selling across borders among a few things. IMO I think we would start to see an increase in maintenance related accidents and incidents. Either way makes no real difference to me.
 
How many remember this? http://www.mrrpm.com/

290-OrendaEngine360.JPG


400-Orenda%20Eng%20top%20view_small.jpg


 
"Marginally civil"?? Please show me where I've even got anywhere close to being uncivil. On the other hand, while I discussed facts and issues, you tried to turn it into personal attacks and obfuscations.

My attitude is not laziness as you imply, it's based in reality, which you refuse to accept. It's always easier to find someone or something to blame for what you see as inequalities. Understanding markets and market forces helps in realizing why certain things make money (expand) while others lose (decline).

My example of Robinson Helicopter is right on topic of the thread. It shows they have a market, are filling the market and doing so by complying with a regulatory requirement. They are successful due to realizing a market and filling it. The OP topic is an engine design using an automotive engine and reduction drive. From what I see, they are looking for an alternative market for their product. Maybe they will fill that niche, and by doing so will enable them to get certified and start selling to the certified market. Maybe in that time frame they will achieve enough data to get a better idea of the viability of their product.

Maybe the FAA should invalidate all airworthiness certificates past, say 30 years old, and create an "owner airworthiness" category, and let the owners do as they please. Of course that would mean no more flights out of the country, difficulty in selling across borders among a few things. IMO I think we would start to see an increase in maintenance related accidents and incidents. Either way makes no real difference to me.
Swing and a miss.
 
You still have t described it.
I assumed your curiosity would have moved you to pull up the EASA regulations and compare them to the FARs. My past discussions on this topic consisted of multiple copies of EASA regs which is both time consuming and a bit off target to most PoA members. So that is the reason for not getting into more detail. As to veiled insults, I reread my post several times and do not see it. If you feel insulted by how I discuss things, well so be it.
Very few recreational GA aircraft over there are trying to maintain an N number, AFAIK. Do they when imported?
Don’t know where you get your data from but there are 1000s of N reg private/rec aircraft domiciled and owned by foreign nationals abroad. It’s difficult to publicly search the registration database as all these aircraft must be registered under an aircraft trust. However, there are private/paid listings available if you are interested.
Which FAA regs would make at least a 25% increase overnight in European recreational GA?
Let me try this another way starting with Part 61. If you want more details feel free to look up the EASA version of the process.

One driving force behind operating N reg in the EU is the simplicity of obtaining FAA pilot ratings especially an instrument rating. It’s been said that one could travel to the US, get an FAA IR, return home, jump in his N reg aircraft and fly an IFR approach before his EASA IR application makes it through the system. And while the EASA has been trying to break this “loop hole” I haven’t heard of any success lately.

The same goes for pilot medicals. Given the discussions on PoA, my guess is a 1/3 or better of the practicing pilots here could not get a medical in the EU. Look up the EASA medical requirements sometime.

Moving to Part 43, I already gave examples of mechanic certification differences. However, one issue is the level of regulatory requirements to maintain the aircraft airworthiness currency. In the US and with N reg EU aircraft it’s the same, find any FAA AP/IA and you’re good to go. And there are 100s throughout the EU and the world. Or fly your own AP in from the States. EASA mx requirements have multiple organizational levels that go way beyond the Part 43 APIA infrastructure.

For example, pilot mx is more limited and requires oversight by a maintenance organization; there is no field approval process like the FAA; there are more levels of inspection requirements above the FAA annual like repetitive avionics inspections, 150 hr inspections outside the annual requirements; and, every 3 years a new AWC/CofA is required. There are dozens of other items.

On Part 21 the often described “overly-burdensome” FAA STC/PMA/TSO process pales in comparison to the EASA processes. So while PoA members (and EU N reg pilots) hotly discuss what new toys they want to install this year due to the plethora of new STCs and PMAs available every year, their European fellow EASA pilots can only wish as very few new equipment ever make it past the EASA process.

Actually, more foreign businesses bring their aviation parts to the US for certification due to the US system is more flexible and is quicker than their national system. After wards these companies simply use one of the available bilateral agreements and have the FAA STC converted to a national STC, if needed. It’s also probably the reason the Corsair boys above are completing the FAA STC process in order to sell their engine kits to foreign certificated aircraft. It seems counterproductive, but the FAA STC is the most flexible, cheapest, fastest thing out there that can be used globally.

And this is only the surface. But yes, you change the EASA regs to the FAA regs listed above you will probably see a dramatic increase in GA activity of EU registered aircraft based on what I’ve been told by those who actual live it. Or perhaps ask Kat what the difference would be flying/maintenance wise on his WTW trip if his aircraft was under a different registration than N reg?
 
A career mechanic that earns his living working within the regulatory system and a government employee act all smug and pedantic about how regulatory structures don’t adversely affect innovation.
Ha. But that’s just it, having worked within the system I don’t see the lack or adverse effect on innovation. Inconveniences, sure. Repetitive work, sure. But still innovation on a wide basis. Considering you stated you have direct experience where the FAA burdened your endeavors, perhaps a specific example(s) of it. I’m curious to see what you, and others are seeing. However, simply stating Part 23 is a burden, or the Wright Brothers didn’t have this bad don’t cut it either.
What I am saying is the current FAA regulatory structure on GA is an unnecessary burden that is contributing to the stagnation of our hobby.
How so? I know of no FAA regulation that prevents anyone, to include you, from designing and building an aircraft that seats 6, cruises at 250 true, and a 2000 mile range and uses all the latest innovative material and methods: carbon fiber, additive machining, glass cockpits, etc. Nor is there a regulation that would prevent its registration or prevent it from flying.
’ll even go further and tell you my expectations as a tax payer are that the government has to prove to me there is a positive cost benefit for the regulation.
But they already do via the APA since the ‘40s. They even give you the reasoning and the cost to you. And let you comment. Unfortunately, most choose not to participate for various reasons, preferring instead to only complain about it. A good example was the Piper fuel selector decal AD that required a mechanic to install the decal and sign the AD. Everybody was livid. Yet when it was suggested to get all 10,000+ affected Piper owners to comment on the APA AD NPRM, only several admitted to making NPRM comments. All told when the comment period ended only 114 comments were posted, less than 1% of the affected owners. So if you want change you need to be part of the solution. The option is there.;)
 
I assumed your curiosity would have moved you to pull up the EASA regulations and compare them to the FARs. My past discussions on this topic consisted of multiple copies of EASA regs which is both time consuming and a bit off target to most PoA members. So that is the reason for not getting into more detail. As to veiled insults, I reread my post several times and do not see it. If you feel insulted by how I discuss things, well so be it.

Don’t know where you get your data from but there are 1000s of N reg private/rec aircraft domiciled and owned by foreign nationals abroad. It’s difficult to publicly search the registration database as all these aircraft must be registered under an aircraft trust. However, there are private/paid listings available if you are interested.

Let me try this another way starting with Part 61. If you want more details feel free to look up the EASA version of the process.

One driving force behind operating N reg in the EU is the simplicity of obtaining FAA pilot ratings especially an instrument rating. It’s been said that one could travel to the US, get an FAA IR, return home, jump in his N reg aircraft and fly an IFR approach before his EASA IR application makes it through the system. And while the EASA has been trying to break this “loop hole” I haven’t heard of any success lately.

The same goes for pilot medicals. Given the discussions on PoA, my guess is a 1/3 or better of the practicing pilots here could not get a medical in the EU. Look up the EASA medical requirements sometime.

Moving to Part 43, I already gave examples of mechanic certification differences. However, one issue is the level of regulatory requirements to maintain the aircraft airworthiness currency. In the US and with N reg EU aircraft it’s the same, find any FAA AP/IA and you’re good to go. And there are 100s throughout the EU and the world. Or fly your own AP in from the States. EASA mx requirements have multiple organizational levels that go way beyond the Part 43 APIA infrastructure.

For example, pilot mx is more limited and requires oversight by a maintenance organization; there is no field approval process like the FAA; there are more levels of inspection requirements above the FAA annual like repetitive avionics inspections, 150 hr inspections outside the annual requirements; and, every 3 years a new AWC/CofA is required. There are dozens of other items.

On Part 21 the often described “overly-burdensome” FAA STC/PMA/TSO process pales in comparison to the EASA processes. So while PoA members (and EU N reg pilots) hotly discuss what new toys they want to install this year due to the plethora of new STCs and PMAs available every year, their European fellow EASA pilots can only wish as very few new equipment ever make it past the EASA process.

Actually, more foreign businesses bring their aviation parts to the US for certification due to the US system is more flexible and is quicker than their national system. After wards these companies simply use one of the available bilateral agreements and have the FAA STC converted to a national STC, if needed. It’s also probably the reason the Corsair boys above are completing the FAA STC process in order to sell their engine kits to foreign certificated aircraft. It seems counterproductive, but the FAA STC is the most flexible, cheapest, fastest thing out there that can be used globally.

And this is only the surface. But yes, you change the EASA regs to the FAA regs listed above you will probably see a dramatic increase in GA activity of EU registered aircraft based on what I’ve been told by those who actual live it. Or perhaps ask Kat what the difference would be flying/maintenance wise on his WTW trip if his aircraft was under a different registration than N reg?

Great info, thanks!

I’m surprised and still wonder if the N number thing applies to Recreational GA though. Not stuff that can easily hop the pond, since that was the topic we were discussing.

In general, they seem to be more likely to operate gliders and LSA type stuff that wasn’t built here, I guess I’d say Is what I see from clubs and video documentary and such. Rare to see fleets of ancient Skyhawks like here.

But the rest... very interesting. I guess I’ve missed your other posts in detail. It’s all good. Those are solid points about how hard it is to “get started” for sure. All of it hideously expensive for them.

From discussion with automotive enthusiasts there, expense to operate isn’t really something they’re not used to, either. Just massively puts the real costs squarely on the operator more so than we do.

Not that I don’t know my activities are massively subsidized by folks who’ll never touch a small aircraft. Like Joe Walsh said, “I can’t complain but sometimes I still do... Life’s been good to me so far!”

Waiting in line for the bizjets at my particular home base is like, “Have fun. Thanks for paying for the airport! We’ll go do some laps to keep the operations counts high for the debt money side of it, too!” LOL. I know my little fuel tax and ground lease definitely didn’t pay for those snowplows! :)
 
still wonder if the N number thing applies to Recreational GA though.
they seem to be more likely to operate gliders and LSA type stuff that wasn’t built here, I guess I’d say Is what I see from clubs and video documentary and such. Rare to see fleets of ancient Skyhawks like here.
Yes it still applies to private and rec aircraft. Matter fact that is usually the only aircraft it applies to as in most EU countries it requires a EU reg to conduct aerial work or commercial ops unless you get an exemption for the N reg.

As an example, they just tweaked this aircraft in an incident which is hardly a LSA or glider. It was registered under an aircraft trust in the UK.
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/240127

I personally know of 7 turbine helicopters and 3 airplanes under N reg in the UK and the last list I saw several years ago showed well over 100 more. All bonifide CAR3/Part 23 aircraft and privately owned. And if the FAA hadn't closed the regional IFOs years ago the numbers would probably be substantially more. But the interesting thing will be with Brexit if the UK remains part of the EASA, reverts back to their old CAA, or takes a more FAA-centric tact for their new CAA system.
 
I think that starting with an outboard boat engine might be a better place to start. The duty cycle of a marine engine is much more similar to aircraft use than is an auto engine. They're not as cheap as car engines, but I think you'd ultimately get better service.
 
Yes it still applies to private and rec aircraft. Matter fact that is usually the only aircraft it applies to as in most EU countries it requires a EU reg to conduct aerial work or commercial ops unless you get an exemption for the N reg.

As an example, they just tweaked this aircraft in an incident which is hardly a LSA or glider. It was registered under an aircraft trust in the UK.
https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/240127

I personally know of 7 turbine helicopters and 3 airplanes under N reg in the UK and the last list I saw several years ago showed well over 100 more. All bonifide CAR3/Part 23 aircraft and privately owned. And if the FAA hadn't closed the regional IFOs years ago the numbers would probably be substantially more. But the interesting thing will be with Brexit if the UK remains part of the EASA, reverts back to their old CAA, or takes a more FAA-centric tact for their new CAA system.

Cool. I haz been edumacated!

Appreciate it. Truly. Wasn’t trying to be a pain.
 
I think that starting with an outboard boat engine might be a better place to start. The duty cycle of a marine engine is much more similar to aircraft use than is an auto engine. They're not as cheap as car engines, but I think you'd ultimately get better service.
I believe their website says they are using a marine version of the LS engine as the starting point for the conversion. Then making some additional modifications to the oil system, adding engine controls and of course the reducing gear.
 
43.11 B Listing of discrepancies: "does not meet the applicable type certificate data"
That's the aviation killer right there.
 
but .......Killer?
I was thinking in a more general case w.r.t. the general decline of GA.
In this specific case, yes they are flying and logging hours.
Now, you have an engine. It works. A few/several people have put hundreds of hours on it. You want one for your own 172 to replace your worn out (whatever engine is in a 172). Too bad. No can do. This isn't like your Ford Ranger where you can drop in a supercharged small block V8, narrowed rear end, etc. and drive down your public highways inches away from families in minivans at closing speeds over 100 miles per hour. Your airplane is special. We have rules to prevent that sort of thing. You must stick to the original 1950s design full of obsolete parts. God forbid you would use an actual seal in the wheels to replace the 1920's style felt...
 
General Aviation has been neglected by the FAA for decades as they focus and care more on the big money. Bout time someone gives us something new to consider,
FWIW: I don't think the FAA is the largest problem as they are completing the STC process. What I find telling is that they made conscious decision not to sell in the US for one reason and it's not the FAA:
upload_2020-9-24_10-28-18.png
 
Seems like a lot of headache; just go experimental.
 
Thanks for the link Mtns2Skies

The most efficient propeller is as long as possible
And turns as slow as possible

Lycoming & Continental got it right.
The key to high power at low rpm is lots of cubic inches.
Plus a strong crankshaft at the prop end of course
Slender profile (aircooled)
Just that simple.

Automotive engines make their power at high rpm thus they must add a gear reduction transmission to bring down the rpm.
Plus a heavy final shaft and bearings to handle prop loads.
Plus radiators , water pumps and plumbing
No slender profile (drag) (frontal area)

I love new innovations and some modern day efficiencies help a lot but beyond that there is no magic.
 
Straight up direct drive air cooled engines are much better for aircraft. That's a big part of why the Skycatcher, with an O-200, was such a success compared to other LSAs that used the high RPM (5000), geared, liquid cooled (heads), Rotax.

Just savage. You'd think there does have to be a point where the "automotive" engine tech is so good that it beats out the direct drives (even with the weight/complexity penalties of PSRUs) because there's so much R&D for cars and so little for those traditional GA engines. The 1.8L turbo 4cyl in my VW makes a hair less than 100 hp/L. An O-360 is more like 30 hp/L. The VW (the whole car) costs less than half as much as a new O-360. I'm not saying it's plug and play or obvious or easy...just that it seems unlikely the old direct drives will be able to out-compete these newer types of powerplants forever.
 
You must stick to the original 1950s design full of obsolete parts. God forbid you would use an actual seal in the wheels to replace the 1920's style felt...
I think leather was being used by 1920. Felt was obsolete already, in cars at least. When I was selling truck parts as a young buck in the early '70s, leather was finally giving way to nitrile, which, I think, is where the industry is still at.

Felt keeps the rocks and bugs out. Any time I've cleaned and repacked aircraft bearings I've often found dirt and water in there. Felt works a lot better if you clean and dry it and work grease into it. Even then those bearings need watching. Like the inside of an engine, water will mix with oil (grease is thickened oil) and form acids and corrode the bearings and the inside of the wheel.
 
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Just savage. You'd think there does have to be a point where the "automotive" engine tech is so good that it beats out the direct drives (even with the weight/complexity penalties of PSRUs) because there's so much R&D for cars and so little for those traditional GA engines. The 1.8L turbo 4cyl in my VW makes a hair less than 100 hp/L. An O-360 is more like 30 hp/L. The VW (the whole car) costs less than half as much as a new O-360. I'm not saying it's plug and play or obvious or easy...just that it seems unlikely the old direct drives will be able to out-compete these newer types of powerplants forever.
The Rotax 900 series is proving your point: reliable, long lasting, getting nicely mature.
 
I'm not saying it's plug and play or obvious or easy...just that it seems unlikely the old direct drives will be able to out-compete these newer types of powerplants forever.
We're all waiting for a better, cheaper engine. All of us. Nobody is dissing new technology, just the naive ideas that it can be done so easily and still avoid huge liability. I learned to fly 47 years ago and have seen a LOT of "new" engines come and go and leave no trace. It just ain't that easy. If someone does come up with something that can easily and more economically replace the old aircooled engines, it will sell. Until then....
 
I do. It was originally a Canadian effort.

How many remember Fred Geschwender? More than 50 years ago he started converting auto engines, but it's a tough job trying to change direction in aviation. http://acversailles.free.fr/documen...age_moteurs_auto/The_Geschwender_equation.pdf

And http://users.owt.com/worden/alternateairpower/
This led me down a fascinating rabbit hole. I grew up in Lincoln and had never heard of Fred - he seems to have been pretty successful at this. He helped one guy retrofit a SeaBee, of all things, which apparently lead to this: https://www.horizonaircraft.com/horizon-aircraft-company-history/. What a cool story.
 
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