Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Twin)

colomtnflyer

colomtnflyer

Cleared for Takeoff
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
1,008
Location
Guess it depends on what week it is!
Display Name
Display name:
iAM in AK!
The 310 (1964, I model) just got out of the shop yesterday, from it's annual. We have had the plane since Aug of '01, and our annuals have been running between $3500 and $5500. The high end was a year when several parts had to be replaced, new main tires and brakes were also done.

Well, the news came yesterday. Not in the form of a bill through the USPS, but in the form of a phone call from one of my partners. (P=Partner, ME = Me)

P- "The annual is finished, and the plane is in great shape!"

ME- "Super, how much is it gonna cost me?"

P- "The engines are doing fine, they found the cause of one of the oil leaks (loose plug), we saved $500 by buying our own spark plugs instead of using the shops and fixed a few other minor things..."

ME- "Alright, that sounds great. How much $$$?"

P- "They did have to reseal one of the main struts."

Me- "Uh huh...(we'd had to have that done once before when we first took possession of it)... But how much?"

P- "And then they found a small leak in one of the main tanks."

Me- (cash register beginning to get louder in my head) "Uh Huh... and it was fixed, no problem?"

P- "Oh ya, it was fixed... And the battery box had to be repaired. I tried to get another one, but the cheapest I found was $1000. But the mechanics repaired the one we have."

ME- (I am no longer asking how much, because I no longer really want to know...) "Ok, what else had to be done to it?" (now I'm into the "just give me the facts" mode)

P- "Well, the nose wheel had to be replaced, (no biggie), there were a couple of cracks which had to be stop drilled, the heater had to have its 100hr AD inspection, a few other minor repairs..."

ME- (my mind is now reeling from the idea that parts are not your worst nightmare in an older plane- its the labor hrs @ $80 per hr!) "Ok, anything else?"

P- "Weeeellll, there were few other things."

Me- (my stomach has a sinking feeling worse than during any check ride I have ever taken) "Like what?"

P- "Just lots of little things like loose rivets and a couple of missing camlocs, and stuff like that...."

ME- (my blood pressure is beginning to stabilize) "Ok, that stuff is expected"

P- "And the chief mechanic knocked about 20 hrs off the bill...." (he does this frequently, as his guys are constantly being pulled off to assist other mechanics on other aircraft, but this bodes poorly, as it means the number is getting closer...)

ME- "But the aircraft is back together, flyable, and in really good shape after all this?"

P- "Oh yes! And the Chief mechanic is even going to let us pay the bill over a couple of months!"

ME- (blood pressure spiking through the roof) "Geez, how much can it be?"

P- "I think we had a lot done, and things are really good now... "

Me- "Ya.......?"

P- "Its only $9800... but it could have been worse!"

Me- (after picking myself up off the floor) "Yes, I'm sure it could have been, but I'm not quite sure how!"

P- "The other partner and I have discussed it (I have 2 partners each owning 25%, I own 50%), and we have looked at the amount of money in the LLC checking account, and we can put a couple of thou from it into this inspection. So your end is about $3900.

ME- "OUCH! I was hoping my end would be more around $2000. This is our most expensive annual by almost $4000. What happened that caused this one to be so high? Last year, when we did not have it on lease back, was only $4500. Was the student training and rental taking that much of a toll on the aircraft?"

P- "I asked the mechanic that same question, and he figures it is just time and flight hrs. After all, it is a 43 yr old airplane."

ME- "Ya, I guess... (totally demoralized, trying to figure out where I'm going to get an extra $1800 from) And the shop is happy for us to pay them over a couple of months? I sure hope so!"

P- "Yes, they understood that this annual was much more labor intensive than any of the previous 5 they have done for us, so they are going to allow us to pay it off."

Me- "Ok, I'll send you a check for $2000 tomorrow..." But now let me ask you a question... How much is the plane scheduled over the next couple of months?"

P- "Not a thing on the schedule... why?"

Me- "Then I want the plane for all of Jan and Feb... down here in Texas! Because if I'm gonna pay to be screwed by that airplane, then by gosh, I'm gonna get some pleasure out of it! After all, I haven't flown the thing since Sept 2006"

P- "I'll see what the other partner thinks about it."

ME- "I hope you agree with me..."

P- (laughing at me) "Ya, I understand...!"

So, what excuse can I make for NOT going to the Post Office this morning...? :dunno:
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

I've heard that referred to as a "good annual" by some, I think. Those some happen to be the people who get paid for all that work, of course. :)

That is a major ouch on the bill...
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

Ouch! And this is the plane you were trying to get me to go in on. Hahahahahah. :no:

I flew (someone else's) older Twin Cessna for enough years and hours to know better.

But it is a pretty plane, Ric... :yes:
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

There's a lota stuff to keep up on 310s....
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

Sorry to hear about that cash hit. I fully support your request to base the plane in TX. For what that's worth.

What have annuals on your Seneca been like, Doc?

Lots of people say, oh, costs are much higher, but never give ##'s. It's very helpful to hear the truth from you guys who actually have twins.
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

You have it in leaseback? Well, I had my Citabria as a personal airplane, then in leaseback, then a personal aircraft again. During the leaseback period, maintenance cost per hour more than doubled, and then went back down again when it was a personal aircraft.
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

Ouch, Ric... 9.8 AMU's, that's rough. I hope the other partner agrees and you can bring it back down here after the holidays. I'd like to see that pretty bird :).
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

I always try to treat rental planes proper (in some instances I know the people who have them on leaseback).

HOWEVER, it never ceases to amaze me the degree to which a lot of people abuse the hell out of rentals. I have seen instructors run the damn things in the red arc for hours on X-Cs.

~ Christopher
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

jwriteclub said:
HOWEVER, it never ceases to amaze me the degree to which a lot of people abuse the hell out of rentals. I have seen instructors run the damn things in the red arc for hours on X-Cs.
Click to expand...

It's the same as with rental cars. "Oh, it's not mine," attitude is really bad for maintenance costs and longevity. On airplanes it's significantly worse, because there's so much more expensive stuff to break.
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

The point I was trying to make was one about the increasing costs of maintaining an aging aircraft. We attempt to cut no corners in keeping this aircraft up to the best possible condition. In fact, it has had more upgrades and TLC in the past 6 yrs than it probably received in the 20 years prior to our ownership. (New interior is going to happen this coming year)

I am in NO WAY accusing the students and renters of abusing the aircraft! I personally have worked with the instrs who teach in the plane, and I know they treat it very kindly. And there have been extremely few who qualify to rent the plane without an instr on board, and I also know them. (One of the codiciles of our leaseback arrangement is any owner can deny the use of the aircraft by any particular individual for any reason. The Pilot Center may NOT override the denial by an owner) If we (the owners or the Pilot Center) were aware of any individual who was mistreating the aircraft in any way, that person would be denied the use of the plane from then on. Renters are also liable for any damage to the aircraft, above and beyond normal wear and tear.

N.B.- PJ- you don't want to just see it- you want a ride in it! Come on...admit it! ;)
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

colomtnflyer said:
N.B.- PJ- you don't want to just see it- you want a ride in it! Come on...admit it! ;)
Click to expand...
Guilty :) But, I thought that would go without saying!
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

My first annual, after only a few months of ownership was 1/3 of $18k. Of course $12K of that was the new 3 blade scimitar prop we got when we were told that the old one was "out of limits".
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

jkaduk said:
My first annual, after only a few months of ownership was 1/3 of $18k. Of course $12K of that was the new 3 blade scimitar prop we got when we were told that the old one was "out of limits".
Click to expand...

But $6k for a Bo?? Yikes. What, did you have to replace the ashtray with a Genuine Beech part?
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

A 43-yr.-old 310 leased back????????? That isn't an unusual annual for an old twin rental plane. Not because anyone abused it [and you didn't seem to think anyone did]...it's because it's an old twin and leasing back puts many more hours on it than the partnership would, if it's partnered for personal use. In the schools where I've taught, I've seen this happen many, many times. Some guy decides, for whatever reason, to stick on leaseback some old 310, Baron, or Aztec he's been flying and gets the annual bill, pulls it offline in a rage and we look for another plane for the school. Once, a '60 model 310 a retired guy had spent a few years lovingly restoring and upgrading [avionics], first annual at our school: $25,000. No abuse. These old planes, twins, just wear out faster and faster, or parts of them do, with a lot of steady use. I have one myself. It can sit in the hangar and something wears out. Mine is a '62, so I'm well aware.... There are lots of systems on these old guys, and many of them will cost you somewhere near the value of the airframe to rebuild. You can spend a couple hundred thousand fixing up everything you can think of on an old twin, start flying it a lot and bingo, a whole lot more mx. This is partly why one can purchase his or her very own old twin for the cost of a new pickup truck. My partners and I did just that.
 
Last edited:
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

As the cost of aviation rises the owners will search for methods to cut costs, there will be less and less aircraft using the FBOs and repair centers to get their annuals completed. As this happens the cost of operating the repair centers will rise too, the cost will be spread across fewer and fewer aircraft owners, thus the upward spiraling will cause the demise of the industry.

Simply because the decreasing value of the dollar and the ever rising costs will widen thhe gap between those who can afford to own, and those who can not.
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

Well Ric. Thank you you just made up my mind. I was thinking about getting rid of the Warrior and buying a twin. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN now.
I'll just stick with my owner assisted annuals and keep what i got.someday i might STC it up to a 180 hp. that would make it nicer.
Dave G.:blueplane:
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

Baron- I was only suprised by the amount, based on what the previous annuals had been. It has been on lease back since I bought it in 2001, with the exception of 2006, when we had taken it off for a year. All of the previous annuals, whether on or off lease were within a ballpark number. This one just came in so high because of the unusual amount of labor, and hopefully is an anomaly.

by the way- what mtn airport are you at?
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

jwriteclub said:
I always try to treat rental planes proper (in some instances I know the people who have them on leaseback).

HOWEVER, it never ceases to amaze me the degree to which a lot of people abuse the hell out of rentals. I have seen instructors run the damn things in the red arc for hours on X-Cs.

~ Christopher
Click to expand...

The best way to rent out high performance planes is dry rate. That way the renters pull back the throttles.
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

We have some of the same issues in the P-Baron even though we don't rent it. Two of us fly it and pretty much are in agreement as to how it's operated. We had to replace an air inlet door over the left engine recently and a new one was over $2,000 just for the part. The fuel bladders are original; we plan on replacing them soon and there are six. Even oil changes involve four or five hours labor because the cowling removal alone takes a lot of time.

Just a lot of stuff and it's getting older. Sorry to hear what happened. Sounds as if you've been kinna lucky in the past with renting a plane that age and keeping the annuals that low. None of this is getting cheaper. Guess that's what pushes people toward newer or simplier at some point.

Sigh!

Best,

Dave
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

Henning said:
The best way to rent out high performance planes is dry rate. That way the renters pull back the throttles.
Click to expand...
Or they fly at 75% "for performance" and at peak EGT "for economy," screwing the owner entirely.
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

Quote:
Originally Posted by colomtnflyer
N.B.- PJ- you don't want to just see it- you want a ride in it! Come on...admit it! ;)

toronado said:
Guilty :) But, I thought that would go without saying!
Click to expand...

flyingcheesehead said:
If you're lucky, it goes without paying too. ;)
Click to expand...


Ok, guys. I may be generous to a fault sometimes, but I ain't stoopid! lol :eek::hairraise::eek:
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

Fretting over the bills takes the fun out of it for me. Especially when you have to ask for permission to take the airplane to Texas!

If it was me, being the sole owner of a C182 would be looking real good right about now.

Your costs would be less - availability would be radically increased - no leaseback necessary and far fewer surprises.

I have been applying a mentality that I use with computer equipment to my ownership experience lately. That is ... purchase the nicest, most up to date and well maintained equipment you can reasonably afford. It will be less expensive in the long run.
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

I believe the question of which airfield was for me: I'm at BJC [Jeffco-now-Metro].
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

jwriteclub said:
I always try to treat rental planes proper (in some instances I know the people who have them on leaseback).

HOWEVER, it never ceases to amaze me the degree to which a lot of people abuse the hell out of rentals. I have seen instructors run the damn things in the red arc for hours on X-Cs.

~ Christopher
Click to expand...
Ya its called "rental power" = cracked pistons, cylinders, ugghhh ..$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

From the mechanic's standpoint, working on these 40 year old airplanes is pretty frustrating. After 40 annuals, and who knows how many 100hr inspections, they are wore out from just taking them apart and putting them together again. Don't even get me started on interiors. The plastic interior panels are usually so brittle, that they just crack and crumble in your hands when you try to remove them. I spend a good amount of shop time figuring out how I'm going to get to something, or how I'm going to replace something, without causing a thousand dollars worth of damage in the process. Just fixing something, is liable to cause other problems. I've seen pressure capsules leak after I've cleaned out the belly of an airplane, because the seals and gaskets are so deteriorated that the only thing that is keeping them from leaking is the dirt, the grease, and the oil that has accumulated in them. Sometimes it seems like I can't keep up with it all. An owner will bring his plane in to get it repaired for one thing, and while it is in the shop, something else goes wrong with it while we are trying to work on the first problem. Maybe the gear is not operating very well. You find out that the pump isn't putting out pressure like it did four decades ago, so you get it overhauled. Then you put the new pump in, and now you find out that the whole system leaks when it has full pressure to it because all of the hoses and fittings are old. Some of the leaks might be behind panels that come off in pieces when you try to get to the leaks. It is just a mess. It is pretty hard to tell the owner of an airplane that his pride and joy is falling apart from old age, so you just do the very best you can, and hope that he doesn't notice a couple of extra cracks in a door panel, or the discoloration on some piece of plastic you had to glue back together after it fell apart when you tried to get it off. Wow, I feel better getting that off my chest. I hope that I didn't cause too much depression out there.
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

MAX- I empathize with your situation.

Until I moved to Tex for my current position, I assisted in every 50 hr, 100hr, and annual since we took possession of the plane. I feel I knew it about as well as the mechanics did. And I'm none to shy about asking questions when ever I found something I didn't understand or couldn't figure out how to get into something. Not to mention the benefit to the mechanics of my being right there to make any decisions regarding deferrals or go-aheads during the inspection.

I certainly understand your point of view, having had those same things happen to me and the mechanics who work on the plane. Any owner who isn't aware of the facts of life regarding the functional life of plastics and other materials is going to be sadly awakened to that fact one day.

Within what ever limits the owner sets for such occurances, the mechanic can only do so much. That owner has no right to hold the mechanics to blame if a 40 yr old piece of plastic breaks, provided reasonable care was taken and every attempt made to keep further damage to a minimum. It is then up to the owner to authorize the repair/ replacement of the piece in question.

No doubt the issue of the aging fleet of aircraft in the US is going to become a greater concern each year! Parts are getting harder to come by, those that are available are commanding top prices, and its taking more labor hrs to adequately maintain these aircraft. Add to that the actual fatigue of the airframes and systems, the demands of the FAA to upgrade certain systems at costs which may be out of reach for some owners, and the number of permanently grounded aircraft will be rising dramatically in the next decade.

I hope I do not sound like a "the sky is falling" type person. I'm not. But every aircraft owner needs to be aware that everything does have a finite lifespan.
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

Maxmosbey said:
Wow, I feel better getting that off my chest. I hope that I didn't cause too much depression out there.
Click to expand...
Nah, I think you're only being realistic. I've noticed that another weak point of legacy (old) airplanes is the wiring. The more your airplane depends on electrons, the bigger a problem this is. Wiring gets brittle with age, cannon plug connections get loose etc. When one component gets worked there's a good chance of bumping the wires next to it, causing another glitch. Not only that, intermittent electrical problems are hard, time consuming and expensive to trace.
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

colomtnflyer said:
MAX-


No doubt the issue of the aging fleet of aircraft in the US is going to become a greater concern each year! Parts are getting harder to come by, those that are available are commanding top prices, and its taking more labor hrs to adequately maintain these aircraft. Add to that the actual fatigue of the airframes and systems, the demands of the FAA to upgrade certain systems at costs which may be out of reach for some owners, and the number of permanently grounded aircraft will be rising dramatically in the next decade.
Click to expand...

I think that you hit the nail on the head. I don't know how many pieces that I have glued, welded, and riveted because we couldn't find a new part, or the new part was obscenely over priced.
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

FlyFast-
As the plane is on lease back and I do have partners, what ever impacts the planes revenue stream must be agreed to by all of us. Asking permission to use it for a period, when I have not had ready access is not a troubling issue. I fly at least a few times a week for work, so not having the plane at my disposal is not an issue. I would not be flying it more than a couple/few times a week, anyway... regardless what type of aircraft I had...

By the way, PJ... I have just confirmed I have it from Dec 29 till Feb16! Look out, Texas! Here I come!
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

Well that is good news. Have fun with it. I sure enjoy turning two engines. Last time I had to make a hard decision about the twin, I sold the house first!

Mike
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

The point about the cost of owning old airplanes are well taken.

However, this brings up for me (as someone who has worked on "Experimental" systems) the whole problem with how we do aviation. It is possible to make a lot of these systems both safe and significantly less expensive. And yet instead we use the same tired out technology, continually making it more expensive and adding warning after warning to the oversized and bloated POHs.

Why does a Columbia 400 cost in the high $500Ks when the ES kit with engine will set you back ~ $170K. Even with $30K of avionics, I do not believe that it is not possible to do the assembly for less than $300K. Especially if done in the same factory where the first 49% of the kit is produced.

Just my 2c.

~ Christopher
 
Re: Uugghh! Plane just came out of annual.. (or Another reason not to buy an older Tw

Ted DuPuis said:
I've heard that referred to as a "good annual" by some, I think. Those some happen to be the people who get paid for all that work, of course. :)

That is a major ouch on the bill...
Click to expand...

Ted,

Maybe it is a good thing you didn't get your wedding present from Ric after all. :)

David (dave3)
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top