Using timers on instrument check ride

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jsureke

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jsureke
Howdy,
I would love to hear from a DPE on this, but all comments are appreciated.
I'm in the final stages of my instrument training, and I just switched to a new instructor who told me I can't use my own timer for my check ride. He said I have to use the tiny clock on the instrument panel, but I can't find anything in the PTS or FARs that supports that.
Thanks for your help!
 
I used a kitchen timer velcroed to the panel for my checkride. Anybody with a brain understands a digital timer is going to be more accurate than a tiny sweep clock, and that timing approaches is a pretty imprecise art to begin with.
 
jsureke said:
Howdy,
I would love to hear from a DPE on this, but all comments are appreciated.
I'm in the final stages of my instrument training, and I just switched to a new instructor who told me I can't use my own timer for my check ride. He said I have to use the tiny clock on the instrument panel, but I can't find anything in the PTS or FARs that supports that.
Thanks for your help!
Click to expand...
Call or email the DPE and find out. And if he says no, select a new DPE that doesn’t make up his own rules.
 
I used a kitchen timer. And if he has a problem with one, tell him you'll use the dash clock, with the kitchen timer as backup. Then just use the timer. I never understand some of these things...like the guys who ALWAYS hide the iPads. I get hiding it sometimes to prove you can go without if it fails, but all the time? C'mon, my iPad has proven over time to be (substantially) the most reliable instrument in my plane. EVERY SINGLE INSTRUMENT in my aircraft, over my 25+ years of flying, has quit on me, some more than once (I'm on my 4th AI in 4 years btw), but my iPad has never failed. Can it fail? Sure...but has it? Nope! Granted, the iPad has only been flying with me for about 10 years, but still...
 
91.205 d(6) does require an INSTALLED somesortofclockthatcanshowseconds. If your airplane doesn’t have one, that’ll be an issue.

There is no reg, however, that says you have to USE that one. Velcro’d kitchen timer or whatever is fine.

Kinda like filing an alternate. If you HAVE to file one, no one says you HAVE to end up there if you can’t get into destination.


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I think your new CFI is talking out his ——! In addition to doing my training over 20 years ago, the many students I signed off have used a digital timer on the yoke or knee board.
 
TommyG said:
I think your new CFI is talking out his ——! In addition to doing my training over 20 years ago, the many students I signed off have used a digital timer on the yoke or knee board.
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It wouldn't be the first time a CFI or DPE decided to personally codify their own bizarre interpretation of a regulation.
 
N1120A said:
You can use the clock on the transponder as well..
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Good enough for Apollo, good enough for my DPE - He had no issue with it.

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Unless the local DPE has made an issue of this, the instructors argument is just plain wrong.
 
I use the timer under Garmin Pilot FWIW.
 
Your CFI doesn’t know what he is talking about. There is no such requirement.
 
Just took my IFR checkride in November. I dont keep the fuse for my clock installed due to it constantly pulling a tiny bit on the plane battery. When walking to the plane I asked the DPE if he cared if I used the timer velcroed to the panel or if he wanted me to put the fuse in for the clock. Before he could respond I told him that if the kitchen timer faulted then I had 3 other ways to cover down in flight without the cessna clock. He as fine with that.
 
1SGBrokePilot said:
Just took my IFR checkride in November. I dont keep the fuse for my clock installed due to it constantly pulling a tiny bit on the plane battery. When walking to the plane I asked the DPE if he cared if I used the timer velcroed to the panel or if he wanted me to put the fuse in for the clock. Before he could respond I told him that if the kitchen timer faulted then I had 3 other ways to cover down in flight without the cessna clock. He as fine with that.
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I would have said put the fuse in for the flight, and use whatever timer you want.
 
As long as the aircraft has an "operable" installed "clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation" the applicant is free to use whichever accurate device they wish for timing purposes.

Sometimes the fact that the equipment described above must be installed vs. temporarily "placed" somewhere in the aircraft (i.e. a velcro'd kitchen timer, a watch, etc.) is a source of confusion. What you must do vs. what you must have with regards to operable installed equipment are two separate issues.
 
If you use a kitchen timer, remove the magnets before you velcro it to the dash. Magnets + compasses= no Bueno.
 
I have the vintage analog clock with the hours, minutes and second sweep hand. Set it and wind it before every flight.... something satisfying about that little antique. Keeps time like a Swiss timepiece.

For the IR checkride - used the $15 kitchen timer I bought from the fine folks at Amazon.com.
 
1SGBrokePilot said:
Just took my IFR checkride in November. I dont keep the fuse for my clock installed due to it constantly pulling a tiny bit on the plane battery. When walking to the plane I asked the DPE if he cared if I used the timer velcroed to the panel or if he wanted me to put the fuse in for the clock.
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The installed clock WAS placarded OOS, right? :devil::fingerwag::yes::yes:

Hey, because it is still POA. :stirpot: ;)
 
In addition, the installed timer does not have to be a dedicated clock. It could be a readily accessible timer function on one of your avionics boxes. I have a handy timer function that can be activated with a single switch flip on my digital CDI for NAV2. Not that I will likely ever use it outside a checkride or IPC with a WAAS GPS working. The dedicated clock is actually more complicated to operate as a timer.
 
I always preferred a clock with a sweep second hand. That way when I forgot to start the time on a checkride (pretty much always), I could still make it work. When I’ve descended 700 feet, I’m about a minute into my time, and I just continue from there.
 
chemgeek said:
In addition, the installed timer does not have to be a dedicated clock. It could be a readily accessible timer function on one of your avionics boxes. I have a handy timer function that can be activated with a single switch flip on my digital CDI for NAV2. Not that I will likely ever use it outside a checkride or IPC with a WAAS GPS working. The dedicated clock is actually more complicated to operate as a timer.
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Actually, it does have to be a "dedicated" clock, the definition of which is not quite as straightforward as it seems. The timer function on your transponder or GPS does not meet the requirements of 14 CFR 91.205. However, if you do have an operable installed clock, you could choose to use any other device in the airplane, installed or not, including the timer function on various "avionics boxes."
 
Ryan F. said:
The timer function on your transponder or GPS does not meet the requirements of 14 CFR 91.205.
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It's been a while since I've used one but I think the GNS480 can be configured to display zulu time in such a manner as to satisfy the "permanent clock display" mentioned in the Nkugba letter, no? (I know that the GNS430 cannot)
 
Ryan F. said:
Actually, it does have to be a "dedicated" clock, the definition of which is not quite as straightforward as it seems. The timer function on your transponder or GPS does not meet the requirements of 14 CFR 91.205. However, if you do have an operable installed clock, you could choose to use any other device in the airplane, installed or not, including the timer function on various "avionics boxes."
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I’ll bite: Where does it say the clock has to be “dedicated”? (Follow up question: Define “dedicated”).


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Interesting. So if someone has this: https://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/m803
as their clock, then they’re not legal? Because I could push a button that replaces the ‘clock’ with something else?


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crash7 said:
Interesting. So if someone has this: https://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/m803
as their clock, then they’re not legal? Because I could push a button that replaces the ‘clock’ with something else?


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Click to expand...
That is a “dedicated” clock with additional functions, not a different appliance with a clock function.
 
Last edited:
asicer said:
But the lower half of the Davtron M803 display is always displaying hours, minutes and seconds.
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So it does. My bad. Thought I found a ‘gotcha’...


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1SGBrokePilot said:
Just took my IFR checkride in November. I dont keep the fuse for my clock installed due to it constantly pulling a tiny bit on the plane battery. When walking to the plane I asked the DPE if he cared if I used the timer velcroed to the panel or if he wanted me to put the fuse in for the clock.
Click to expand...

MauleSkinner said:
I would have said put the fuse in for the flight, and use whatever timer you want.
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There's you, here's me:

"Keep the fuse in your pocket. I'll simulate the installed clock is working while on the ground, then after takeoff you can cope with a simulated clock failure for the remainder of the test."
 
dtuuri said:
There's you, here's me:

"Keep the fuse in your pocket. I'll simulate the installed clock is working while on the ground, then after takeoff you can cope with an actual clock failure for the remainder of the test."
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If the applicant approached it in a fashion that indicated he actually knew what the requirements were, I might see your point.
 
crash7 said:
91.205 d(6) does require an INSTALLED somesortofclockthatcanshowseconds. If your airplane doesn’t have one, that’ll be an issue.

There is no reg, however, that says you have to USE that one. Velcro’d kitchen timer or whatever is fine.

Kinda like filing an alternate. If you HAVE to file one, no one says you HAVE to end up there if you can’t get into destination.


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Click to expand...
Well, technically, they can ask you to demonstrate the use of any installed equipment....
 
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