Using Foreflight as a Student Pilot

LAWYER2

LAWYER2

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LAWYER2
I'm seeking advice on whether to use ForeFlight as a student pilot. My flight instructor suggests sticking to traditional methods first to prepare for equipment failures. However, I worry about not being familiar with ForeFlight later on. We are a stick and rudder school, but balancing between traditional and modern tools is my goal. Any insights?
 
You definitely should learn preflight planning doing the math yourself. It's going to be required for the written anyhow.

Years ago when my wife was getting her private, her instructor told her no GPS (we had an early Garmin 195). She didn't use it. However, the plane she was flying had an old Cessna VOR-DME RNAV system in it. That was in the day with the little brown airport guide and they put VOR-DME coordinates in for all the airports. I showed her how to enter this into the RNAV system. She did it with the instructor on board once. He changed his edit to no area navigation of any kind.
 
You will need to know both ways to flight plan and navigate. There is always a chance the examiner will fail your ForeFlight on your checkride. I had one applicant fail when he presented a cross-country flight plan on ForeFlight, and the examiner said you are only showing me you can put numbers into a computer, and I am required to evaluate your ability to plan a flight, not use a computer.
 
You definitely need to know how to do the planning and the math manually, but you should absolutely learn to use Foreflight as well from the beginning. EFB's provide so much more info in an intelligently concise fashion, which promotes much higher levels of situational awareness and safety. But it requires discipline for a new pilot to avoid constantly staring at your iPad when you should be looking outside and watching your instruments. FF is an invaluable companion, but it's also easy for new pilots to be consumed with it. Study hard, learn how to do everything manually, and learn how to doublecheck yourself in FF.
 
Yes, your iPad might fail. And your iPhone might also fail. And your panel-mount GPS navigator could fail. But the chance of two or three EFBs/nav systems all failing at the same time is so remote as to not be a reasonable scenario. Students should train for the real-world flying they’ll be doing after the checkride, not for the flying their grandfathers did. Yeah, yeah, children of the purple line (yeah, yeah, it’s magenta, and that fuzzy purple border on Class E airspace is magenta vignette, got it, the pedants can stand down now).

Instructors should provide practical, realistic training and make sure their students are really ready for what they’ll be doing.
 
ateamer said:
Yes, your iPad might fail. And your iPhone might also fail. And your panel-mount GPS navigator could fail. But the chance of two or three EFBs/nav systems all failing at the same time is so remote as to not be a reasonable scenario. Students should train for the real-world flying they’ll be doing after the checkride, not for the flying their grandfathers did. Yeah, yeah, children of the purple line (yeah, yeah, it’s magenta, and that fuzzy purple border on Class E airspace is magenta vignette, got it, the pedants can stand down now).

Instructors should provide practical, realistic training and make sure their students are really ready for what they’ll be doing.
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You should learn the fundamentals with the building block method. The above method gave us pilots like TNFlygirl who couldn't tell the difference between East and West.
 
Agreed. Concentrate on learning the Pray Wheel, sharpening pencils, and checking your math. If for no other reason, you’ll have a feel for back of the envelope estimates of times, distances, and fuel requirements and gauge whether you’ve made any input errors on the iPad.

The wind side of the WhizWheel is going visually to drive home the effects of winds on both your course and your speed and fuel burn, unlike ForeFlight. Also, working weight and balance by hand is going to give an intimate knowledge of loading and the trade-offs of people and fuel. (you‘ll never just throw 20 lbs unrestrained weight into the baggage compartment once you simulate it sliding into the tail as you climb out).

ForeFlight can be complicated at the higher end. But the basics are easy to master. And you can run yourself into some pretty deep holes trying to figure out all the different screens and which numbers carry over to different modules. It detracts from the learning experience, in my opinion.
 
Thank you for the helpful feedback. Sounds like I'm on the correct path with doing everything manually, at first. On a side note, during my first XC Solo, I didn't even have a solid grasp of our Garmin 430 GPS because we never really use it and the only time I can play around with it is when the plane is running. I tried downloading the simulator, but it's only available on Windows XP and not really supported any longer. Last ground session we had, we sat in the plane and went through the GPS operating procedures and I thought that was helpful.
 
Student pilot here. My instructor recommended the opposite of yours - that I start learning foreflight as soon as possible. My instructor is 24 years old. I wonder if age has something to do with it. Just getting in to learning the manual stuff. Don't see knowing FF as a disadvantage but we'll see.
 
I've seen a few newly minted pilots whose first action in the cockpit is to get the suction mount attached to the windshield or side window, and second action is to install a 10" ipad that blocks about half of their primary field of view.
They are fixated in that screen for the entire VFR flight. Barely looking outside. You remove that crutch and they vapor lock.
Learn to fly the plane, learn to look outside and figure out where you are. Keep the ipad outside of your primary field of view, glance at it to make sure you're still on course, but don't make it your object of fixation.

Your 24yo instructor might not be exercising the best judgement. It might make his life easier, but it won't make you a better pilot. Especially as a VFR pilot, the foreflight knowledge you need can be learned in 15 minutes. Dedicate the rest of the time learning how to actually fly.
 
Of course, learn the basics, learn to read a map (even if it's a digital rendition of a sectional on foreflight) understand how to read a compass, etc.

And also learn the things you'll need for the checkride and never use again (i.e. a circular slide rule).

But mostly, I'm a strong believer to train like you will fly the day after your checkride. That will include an EFB, it will fail on your checkride, and probably sometimes in real life. Be prepared to smoothly transition to plan B. Make sure you have a solid plan B.
 
I learned to fly in 2015, my instructors just started using FF then. I didn’t know what it was and only the instructors used it. I learned everything on paper and by calling flight service for my weather.
About a month before my check ride I got a ipad and FF.
I still didn’t use it flight training but had it with me for solo work.

For my check ride I had my flight planning on a paper chart and on FF.
The DPE loved that I had FF and was very accepting of FF to the point of spending over a 1/2 hour showing me how to use it. It took time out of my ground questions he had for me. He didn’t even look much at my paper chart but was excited about FF.
I didn’t use it on the flight and passed my check ride.
I really learned how to use FF at Oshkosh and Sun N Fun as I went to all the seminars for FF.
Just landed and use FF every flight even though I have a full garmin IFR panel.

I did learn the basics of garmin 530 gps in the flight school planes but not FF. I agree with your instructor. Learn the basics with paper charts first, plenty of time to learn FF after you earn your PPL.
Good luck.
 
I was not allowed to use foreflight on my checkrides, including instrument. I had to disable the tracking and GPS on the checkride to demonstrate that I can use my primary instruments. This was a surprise to me but I was able to do it and pass.

I would not use foreflight in your private. It hinders progress in my opinion. You’re learning how to ride a bike and need to know how to look out the window and get a feel for it. For instrument training you really just print the airport diagrams and approach plates and work off paper. Professional pilots print their routes in the cabin so why shouldn’t you have a paper copy of what’s needed?

Foreflight is easy to pick up, and to use as a secondary tool or for situational awareness. So don’t worry about adding it later on. Learn how to use the free tools first then use foreflight later.
 
LAWYER2 said:
Thank you for the helpful feedback. Sounds like I'm on the correct path with doing everything manually, at first. On a side note, during my first XC Solo, I didn't even have a solid grasp of our Garmin 430 GPS because we never really use it and the only time I can play around with it is when the plane is running. I tried downloading the simulator, but it's only available on Windows XP and not really supported any longer. Last ground session we had, we sat in the plane and went through the GPS operating procedures and I thought that was helpful.
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Pick up Microsoft Flight Simulator or X-Plane 11 and you can learn 75% of what you need to know about G430 or G1000 systems. The real systems have additional screens and features, but plugging in a basic flight plan, navigating to a destination, and flying your first instrument procedures can all be accomplished much more efficiently, safely, and less expensively on your PC. The best favor you can do for the real world is RTFM, read the pilot's guide cover to cover and take lots of notes to try on the real aircraft as you gain hours.
 
I knew at least 2 students back in the pre-GPS days who got lost on their long XC, ran out of gas, and crashed.
 
Agree with almost all of the above.
My one exception? I'm not sure it's useful, in this day and age, to learn how to use a circular slide rule. Sporty's makes a battery powered aeronautical calculator which does everything an E6B does.
I can do the calculations more quickly with it, than an E6.
the reality is I use neither. But the calculator I can use to fill out a manual planning sheet with times, fuel useage, true and adjusted headings, ect.
Just as I don't think folks need to learn how to use a conventional slide rule-"just in case".
as always, YMMV
 
Foreflight is not complicated to learn. But learning the traditional methods will help you have an understanding of the numbers foreflight spits out for flight planning. in all hone I can have you using ForeFlight and it’s full capacity in about 2 hours.
 
I'd want to try and learn what the DPE used or was in favor of. One of mine would have made me leave an EFB off, regardless of purpose.
I was told to not use FF.
For traffic awareness, I found FF a major safety improvement, and find anyone that argues against use of FF a bit of a dinosaur.
Post flight debrief on FF is an objective view of the flight, and helpful if there is a disagreement with the CFI.
But you have to fly the way the dinosaurs preach.
So I would argue to blend use of both and use FF at a minimum as a traffic awareness tool.
And I agree with training and learning for how you actually will fly.
I'd also argue for using Cloud Ahoy as a training aid, or just for fun to relive each flight. It gives you more info than doing the same on FF
 
4RNB said:
I'd want to try and learn what the DPE used or was in favor of. One of mine would have made me leave an EFB off, regardless of purpose.
I was told to not use FF.
For traffic awareness, I found FF a major safety improvement, and find anyone that argues against use of FF a bit of a dinosaur.
Post flight debrief on FF is an objective view of the flight, and helpful if there is a disagreement with the CFI.
But you have to fly the way the dinosaurs preach.
So I would argue to blend use of both and use FF at a minimum as a traffic awareness tool.
And I agree with training and learning for how you actually will fly.
I'd also argue for using Cloud Ahoy as a training aid, or just for fun to relive each flight. It gives you more info than doing the same on FF
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Anybody that’s flown with me will tell you I’m a gadget freak. I’ve spent 10s if not 100s of thousands of dollars putting high tech gadgets in my planes. for cross countries I have my iPad, or iPhone open with foreflight for sure. I’ve had a subscription to CloudAhoy since the beginning. I frequently use flight data for post flight reviews. to the point I drive people crazy with it.

However, I made it a point to do my training without any of those devices. With exception of my night cross country flights I flew all round gauges and no handheld gps. I flew my night cross country flights in a g1000 equipped 172.

I did this intentionally. I believe it’s important to both fully understand how to plan and navigate without them as well as conduct the flight safely without them. Since my checkride, very few flights Have been done without them, but I occasionally leave them off in the 150 to keep my pilotage skills up. Also, looking for traffic out the window is necessary even with an adsb traffic display.

Call me a dinosaur if it makes you happy, but I bet I’m proficient in more types of high tech avionics than you are, and I bet I worry less about what I’d do if it fails than you do.
 
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4RNB said:
For traffic awareness, I found FF a major safety improvement, and find anyone that argues against use of FF a bit of a dinosaur.
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Traffic awareness and quick position checks require 30 minutes to learn.
Your plane has an attitude indicator and a directional gyro, yet those dinosaurs still want you to look outside, pick a reference point on the horizon and keep the wings level.
Just because we say "don't get fixated on an ipad" does't make us the bad guys. But don't make that your crutch to the point that safe flight can't be conducted without one. No wonder the FAA puts out Advisory Circulars that seem to declae a yoke-mounted ipad a permanent install requiring an STC or a field approval (check the other thread).
GPS jamming and spoofing are becoming a real threat. Another good reason to learn to fly without a moving map.
 
LAWYER2 said:
…..However, I worry about not being familiar with ForeFlight later on….
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I’m struggling with this comment. How would “later on” impact your ability to learn FF?
 
LAWYER2 said:
I tried downloading the simulator, but it's only available on Windows XP and not really supported any longer.
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Not true. There are two downloads; one for the older non-WAAS version of the GNS; another for the newer WAAS-enabled one. The newer one works just fine in Windows 10 and 11. I use it all the time.

Garmin: 400W/500W Series Trainer - WAAS Updates & Downloads

400W/500W Series Trainer - WAAS Updates & Downloads
www8.garmin.com www8.garmin.com
 
4RNB said:
I'd want to try and learn what the DPE used or was in favor of. One of mine would have made me leave an EFB off, regardless of purpose.
I was told to not use FF.
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Must've been quite a while ago. Private Pilot ACS:
1710248114685.png
@LAWYER2, Many instructors will want to forego EFBs in the early parts of training. There are a number of good reasons for it. The main two to me are (a) it's often just simpler to spread a chart on a table to teach about it unless there's some decent AV equipment available for one-on-one; and (b) to understand the flight planning techniques you will need in the case of various types of EFB failure. (I don't buy the "need to use paper charts if there's a failure" reason.)

This is a lot like student pilot cross country planning has been for decades. Picking waypoints every 10 NM has been SOP even though you are always supposed to know where you are and checking for fuel use every 5-6 minutes on a 1-hour cross country flight with 5 hours fuel on board is ridiculous. It was to teach you how without breaking the bank on longer trips.
 
 
@Mark, I’d like your thoughts on the risk management part of EFB use. The Risk Management Handbook (FAA-H-8083-2A) is amazingly bereft of discussion of mitigating risk of an EFB. The few mentions I’ve seem have been around the EFB as a tool to help manage flight risk, which is a good thing, but obviously heat/battery failure comes to mind, and there’s also the (albeit tiny) risk of battery fire, among other failure modes as well as distractions that can he caused/induced by the EFB?

Do you think this side of the discussion was intentionally left out of the handbook?
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Purely a WAG - they are either (a) not really prepared to talk about the issue, or (b) it's generic. So they don't.

My own thoughts? At this point I'm not overly concerned with the slight risk of a battery fire any more than any electrical fire in the cockpit. Distraction? I think the issue is generally covered with one statement in the 8083-2A: "Pilots who use automation should train and practice for various scenarios in order to avoid becoming overly distracted when making a programming change or correcting an error." I've watched pilots go off course or altitude when changing radio frequencies or scanning for traffic on a panel display. Distraction has so many sources that it strikes me as a "yes, an EFB can distract you too."

Failure modes is a concern, as it is with any other flight tool, whether paper or plastic. My "favorite" was a IPC during which my client's iPad overheated and shut down. My personal event was an actual Foreflight bug resulting in FF locking up during an approach in actual.

It's sort of about this thread. EFB use is a training issue. At some point in the curriculum, the CFI needs to incorporate it if the goal is a safe pilot and not just passing a checkride.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Shouldn't the instructors be preparing the students for the checkride items that the DPE will want to see?
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That is not the primary goal. At least not for many instructors.

I instructed to the level where I would be fine with my family flying with that student after they pass the checkride.

Yes, you have to make sure the student can demonstrate everything needed to pass, but that as the primary goal does not make for good pilots.
 
New-ish CFI here, but after about 500 hrs of dual given I find the iPad to be a HUGE distraction.. at least for people who are pre-solo. Keep your head out the window, learn the local landmarks, all that jazz. I had a few people show up early on with shiny new iPad and Foreflight they got as a gift and it's not appropriate that early in the game.

However, at least in my case we worked in Foreflight during the cross country planning phase, doing all the paper work first, then, mapping it out on Foreflight to see how well (or not!) the numbers matched. For at least my students having them see how the sausage is made was a big benefit to them.
 
Tantalum said:
New-ish CFI here, but after about 500 hrs of dual given I find the iPad to be a HUGE distraction.. at least for people who are pre-solo. Keep your head out the window, learn the local landmarks, all that jazz. I had a few people show up early on with shiny new iPad and Foreflight they got as a gift and it's not appropriate that early in the game.

However, at least in my case we worked in Foreflight during the cross country planning phase, doing all the paper work first, then, mapping it out on Foreflight to see how well (or not!) the numbers matched. For at least my students having them see how the sausage is made was a big benefit to them.
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Observational question: do you, as a CFI, use an EFB frequently while in the cockpit with a student?

If so, I wonder if there may be some transference without context occurring. For example, a student seeing your use of it equates to them just accepting the EFB must be useful, despite no real instruction from the CFI on why and how you’re using it.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
You will need to know both ways to flight plan and navigate. There is always a chance the examiner will fail your ForeFlight on your checkride. I had one applicant fail when he presented a cross-country flight plan on ForeFlight, and the examiner said you are only showing me you can put numbers into a computer, and I am required to evaluate your ability to plan a flight, not use a computer.
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This to me is BS from the DPE. I'm totally in agreement with needing to know how to fly and navigate without your iPad and failing it on a checkride is fine, but for flight planning, computers are the tools everyone uses. I mean, I'm sure there's someone here that says they unfold their paper charts and get out their EFB and plotter the night before a flight, but that's just not realistic. The DPE can go ahead and grill them on the flight plan from Foreflight, but an automatic failure because the student used the vastly superior planning tool should be a ding on the DPE.
 
morleyz said:
This to me is BS from the DPE. I'm totally in agreement with needing to know how to fly and navigate without your iPad and failing it on a checkride is fine, but for flight planning, computers are the tools everyone uses. I mean, I'm sure there's someone here that says they unfold their paper charts and get out their EFB and plotter the night before a flight, but that's just not realistic. The DPE can go ahead and grill them on the flight plan from Foreflight, but an automatic failure because the student used the vastly superior planning tool should be a ding on the DPE.
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Nope. It's required knowledge for the check ride. You can't use your iPad for the written. You have to understand and be capable of doing it manually to pass the test. Being able to manually do a flight plan encompasses so many important pieces of knowledge, omitting it would be a huge gap in your understanding.
 
Salty said:
Nope. It's required knowledge for the check ride. You can't use your iPad for the written. You have to understand and be capable of doing it manually to pass the test. Being able to manually do a flight plan encompasses so many important pieces of knowledge, omitting it would be a huge gap in your understanding.
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Really, can you point me to the spot in the ACS where it says you fail for using an iPad to do your flight plan?
 
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