Using ADS-B to clear practice area

Ed Haywood

Ed Haywood

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Big Ed
Anyone do this? I never have, but I might start.

My practice area is southeast of Tampa, under the outer ring of class B. It meets requirements for distance from airways, but there is a lot of random GA traffic in the area transiting to Lakeland, Sarasota, etc. It is within the mode C veil so everyone should be broadcasting ADS-B out.

Aerobatic maneuvering will outpace ADS-B refresh and result in collision warnings to yourself. But a quick scan of the fish finder before starting a sequence is a good way to verify any aircraft on a path to enter the practice area in the next 2-3 minutes, a typical sequence length. Visual clearing turns give you 1 minute as best.

Edit: a lot of readers are interpreting this as "instead of visual clearing". Not the case; ADS-B would be in addition to clearing turns. However, clearing turns are limited by visual range. I have never been able to spot a small GA aircraft beyond 3 miles, which is 60-90 seconds of cruise flight time. An aerobatic sequence lasts 3 to 4 minutes, during which continued visual clearance is impossible. Therefore, I need a means to detect aircraft on a path towards me with a range from 3 to 12 miles.

Edit 2: yes I know, not all aircraft have ADS-B. But I'm not worried about Cubs and Champs blasting into my practice area. They are slow.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
so everyone should be broadcasting ADS-B out.
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Except for the no-electric aircraft such as yea olde Cubs and part 103 (who are forbidden to use ADS-B by regulation).
But, it never hurts to look at the screen - most aircraft do show up there long before you can see them.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Except for the no-electric aircraft such as yea olde Cubs and part 103 (who are forbidden to use ADS-B by regulation).
But, it never hurts to look at the screen - most aircraft do show up there long before you can see them.
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Those generally move slowly enough to see and avoid me as I maneuver. Plus their XC speed means it takes them a lot longer to move from BVR to IMF (in my face). Am mostly worried about someone in a small, fast aircraft that can't be seen with clearing turns, but arrives prior to completion of competition sequence. Sequence is 10-12 maneuvers, and usually takes 3 minutes.

Biggest reason I have not done this yet is cockpit ergonomics. Portable devices can get in the way or shake loose under +4/-1 G, and acro aircraft are typically short of panel space. But I recently switched from tablet to phone for traffic display, and I moved my portable ADS-B In unit to a more secure mount under the panel, so I think I have that sorted out.
 
There is a LOT of lag in ADS-B signal. If you're doing aerobatic maneuvers don't be surprised when it constantly alerts you to your own aircraft
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Except for the no-electric aircraft such as yea olde Cubs and part 103 (who are forbidden to use ADS-B by regulation).
But, it never hurts to look at the screen - most aircraft do show up there long before you can see them.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat: as I am often they guy in the J-3, Taylorcraft, Champ, or Glider.

The bigger issue I see when instructing is ADS-B Scale is hard to get your head around and I watch pilots doing evasive maneuver's for an ADS-B target that is still 10 miles away. Because on the screen it looks like an imminent collision.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
I fly my non-engine driven no electrical Aeronca all the time in the Mode C veil. The logic fails at that point and is dangerous. Eyeballs out and always. Isn’t there a better less compacted place to fling the blind spots around?
 
Ed Haywood said:
Those generally move slowly enough to see and avoid me as I maneuver. Plus their XC speed means it takes them a lot longer to move from BVR to IMF (in my face). Am mostly worried about someone in a small, fast aircraft that can't be seen with clearing turns, but arrives prior to completion of competition sequence. Sequence is 10-12 maneuvers, and usually takes 3 minutes.
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Years ago, I was flying the original Fly Baby (no electrics) in open airspace not far from home. I saw a blob coming toward me, about 500 feet higher. As the blob got closer, I realized it was four Stearman biplanes...the Red Baron aerobatic team! Cool, I thought. But when they came near me, they broke up into part of their routine. I stuffed the nose down and got out of Dodge post-haste.

Now, I'm not blaming the team. I was below them, and understand how they couldn't see me. But it was a bit of a shock....

Ron Wanttaja
 
I’m here in Florida as well. Just from inside our house I can see four homes at our airpark that have non-ADS-B planes. There are more here, and most of them fly daily, and they don’t stay close to home. ADS-B is one part, but with the number and variety of aircraft down here, I need a good visual to be more satisfied.
 
skyking3286 said:
I fly my non-engine driven no electrical Aeronca all the time in the Mode C veil. The logic fails at that point and is dangerous. Eyeballs out and always. Isn’t there a better less compacted place to fling the blind spots around?
Click to expand...

Eyeballs out is not possible when flying an aerobatic competition sequence.

No, there is not a better practice spot within reasonable transit distance. Besides, the same risk still exists anywhere else, just perhaps in less concentration.

Same thing I said about Cubs applies to Aeroncas. Lower airspeed means less of a threat to arrive at my location between the time that I clear the box visually and the time I finish the sequence. Lower airspeed also means better ability to see me maneuvering, since I will likely execute multiple figures on their flight path while they are in visual range.
 
How much lag is in an ADS-B in report? ATC it’s updated each second. Much better than the old 4.5 to 12 sec updates.

I got a traffic alert on myself at work the other day. Not sure if it was ADS-B in or TAS doing it. At least I hope it was me. If not, I’m lucky to be alive.
 
Now that we have had the obligatory chime-ins that not everyone has ADS-B, let's stipulate the discussion applies to the other 95% of aircraft traffic, which are moving faster and thus more likely to arrive unexpectedly.
 
Velocity173 said:
How much lag is in an ADS-B in report? ATC it’s updated each second. Much better than the old 4.5 to 12 sec updates.

I got a traffic alert on myself at work the other day. Not sure if it was ADS-B in or TAS doing it. At least I hope it was me. If not, I’m lucky to be alive.
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I get traffic alerts on myself all the time when flying acro. But I would use ADS-B for a traffic check in straight and level flight, prior to maneuvering. Once I begin the sequence, I would ignore it. There is no time or mental space for that during the sequence. Takes 100% visual focus to concentrate on lines, positioning, airspeed/altitude, etc.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Anyone do this? I never have, but I might start.

My practice area is southeast of Tampa, under the outer ring of class B. It meets requirements for distance from airways, but there is a lot of random GA traffic in the area transiting to Lakeland, Sarasota, etc. It is within the mode C veil so everyone should be broadcasting ADS-B out.

Aerobatic maneuvering will outpace ADS-B refresh and result in collision warnings to yourself. But a quick scan of the fish finder before starting a sequence is a good way to verify any aircraft on a path to enter the practice area in the next 2-3 minutes, a typical sequence length. Visual clearing turns give you 1 minute as best.
Click to expand...
I never have. That's because I've never flown a plane with it. Would I? Yes. That alone instead of clearing it also with my eyeballs? No, nyet, nein, no way jose,.......
 
wanttaja said:
Years ago, I was flying the original Fly Baby (no electrics) in open airspace not far from home. I saw a blob coming toward me, about 500 feet higher. As the blob got closer, I realized it was four Stearman biplanes...the Red Baron aerobatic team! Cool, I thought. But when they came near me, they broke up into part of their routine. I stuffed the nose down and got out of Dodge post-haste.

Now, I'm not blaming the team. I was below them, and understand how they couldn't see me. But it was a bit of a shock....

Ron Wanttaja
Click to expand...
Biplanes have a lot of blind spots. If they were in formation, only one pair of eyeballs was available to scan for traffic. The other 3 pairs of eyes were locked onto their lead. And the lead cannot perform the usual maneuvers to clear blind spots. So that Red Baron team, while impressive, is pretty blind!

I got to watch the Blue Angels once at an offset of about 5 miles. Pretty awesome.
 
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ADS-B should replace "Any Traffic In the Area Please Advise", but that's about it, IMHO. It's bad enough that some pilots are focused on their other panel instruments without adding one that has a lot of shortcomings in that close-proximity application.
 
I don't do aerobatics, but at my day job we routinely maneuver at low altitude in the vicinity of uncontrolled airports.

You can bet we do use ADS-B (and TCAS) as a supplemental aid to traffic avoidance. That, our eyeballs, and ATC radar advisories all combined.

So yes, of course keep using ADS-B as an aid, in addition to visually scanning. Why wouldn't you?
 
Maybe its been mentioned, but why not get flight following while in the practice area?
 
RussR said:
Why wouldn't you?
Click to expand...

Mainly because of the cockpit ergonomics. Tight space, small panel. Plus portable devices sometimes don't stay put in +5/-3 G. Every acro pilot has forgotten to secure a phone or something, and gotten whacked in the face when they went inverted.

But I think I've worked through the mounting issues.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
Biplanes have a lot of blind spots. If they were in formation, only one pair of eyeballs was available to scan for traffic. The other 3 pairs of eyes were locked onto their lead. And the lead cannot perform the usual maneuvers to clear blind spots. So that Red Baron team, while impressive, is pretty blind!
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Oh, I understand, and didn't fault them then or now. I couldn't see any heads, and thus knew they couldn't see me. Just made this mouse scurry to the sideboards.....

Ron Wanttaja
 
kyleb said:
You do your visual scan, look at the magic box as a second check, and if you don’t see conflicting traffic, you do your thing.

Makes 100% sense to me.
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That's my logic. Just never occurred to me before, so was curious if other acro pilots made it a habit. For a long time, when I configured the aircraft for acro I removed all portable devices.
 
Flying in your area is a traffic intensive enviroment ,the adsb can be a help ,but nothing beats your eyes and looking outside the airplane. Also helps to have a safety pilot along.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Eyeballs out is not possible when flying an aerobatic competition sequence.
Click to expand...

I would do it just as you suggest, ADS-B check, clearing, then sequence.
However, I'm more or less eyeballs out all the time during a sequence and have spotted traffic numerous times during practice. On a few occasions I've aborted the sequence because of it. Climb back up, start again.
 
Spinka said:
I'm more or less eyeballs out all the time during a sequence
Click to expand...
I can see doing a scan in between figures in practice. But during figures it takes 100% of my focus to set and hold lines on the sight gauge, align with the box, and check speed/Alt/G.

If practicing on a marked box, scanning between figures would be more challenging on the downwind, where you sometimes have have to limit S&L to a few seconds to avoid getting blown out of the boundary. Of course most marked boxes are on airfields and require ground spotters AFAIK.

The other limitation is inability to clear blind spots. For high wings that presents some issues. Take an Immelman for example. How to clear 1 mile on your tail and 1K above you?

I don't want to overthink it too much. Have never heard of an aerobatic mid air with a non-participating aircraft. Our airplanes are painted bright colors for a reason, and motion catches the eye. I've seen little Pitts flying acro from 5 miles away, just a red dot zooming up and down thru the horizon.

Anyhow, I think I am going to change my usual practice and stop removing my portables for acro.
 
Even under the mode C veil there are people without ADSB. My airport is within and I have a friend who filed for the exception every time he came in and out.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Anyone do this? I never have, but I might start.

My practice area is southeast of Tampa, under the outer ring of class B. It meets requirements for distance from airways, but there is a lot of random GA traffic in the area transiting to Lakeland, Sarasota, etc. It is within the mode C veil so everyone should be broadcasting ADS-B out.

Aerobatic maneuvering will outpace ADS-B refresh and result in collision warnings to yourself. But a quick scan of the fish finder before starting a sequence is a good way to verify any aircraft on a path to enter the practice area in the next 2-3 minutes, a typical sequence length. Visual clearing turns give you 1 minute as best.

Edit: a lot of readers are interpreting this as "instead of visual clearing". Not the case; ADS-B would be in addition to clearing turns. However, clearing turns are limited by visual range. I have never been able to spot a small GA aircraft beyond 3 miles, which is 60-90 seconds of cruise flight time. An aerobatic sequence lasts 3 to 4 minutes, during which continued visual clearance is impossible. Therefore, I need a means to detect aircraft on a path towards me with a range from 3 to 12 miles.

Edit 2: yes I know, not all aircraft have ADS-B. But I'm not worried about Cubs and Champs blasting into my practice area. They are slow.
Click to expand...
My personal opinion is that you would be negligent not to use every tool at your disposal for clearing. Especially when you will be maneuvering aggressively. Your plan sounds good to me, I would only add that although you can’t clear visually all around you during your routine, you should do your best to continuously clear the airspace you plan to be occupying in the very near future. (Pretty sure you already are)
 
Ed Haywood said:
Eyeballs out is not possible when flying an aerobatic competition sequence.

No, there is not a better practice spot within reasonable transit distance. Besides, the same risk still exists anywhere else, just perhaps in less concentration.

Same thing I said about Cubs applies to Aeroncas. Lower airspeed means less of a threat to arrive at my location between the time that I clear the box visually and the time I finish the sequence. Lower airspeed also means better ability to see me maneuvering, since I will likely execute multiple figures on their flight path while they are in visual range.
Click to expand...
This interests me because NE Colorado has a locally-known APA not charted on Denver VFR maps due east of class B and a common route for aircraft coming/going between the Front Range area and everything east. There are charted APA (including USAF Academy) and 5 or 6 more with an airplane icon with G for glider but not acro.. More info is in the AFD but how many people read the AFD these days? The area is further east than the Denver maps covers so another map is needed. Why am I interested? Because our university flight team practices there and I often drive out to help.
 
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murphey said:
This interests me because NE Colorado has a locally-known APA not charted on Denver VFR maps due east of class B and a common route for aircraft coming/going between the Front Range area and everything east. There are charted APA (including USAF Academy) and 5 or 6 more with an airplane icon with G for glider but not acro.. More info is in the AFD but how many people read the AFD these days? The area is further east than the Denver maps covers so another map is needed. Why am I interested? Because our university flight team practices there and I often drive out to help.
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I have no experience with charted APA. The IAC will NOTAM a box at airfields for contests, and I have heard of standing NOTAMs at some airfields. Technically I believe that is not required for sportsman, but is necessary for the higher classes because the box floor is at or below pattern altitude.
 
It looks like just east of the Denver class B (and even under the B) there are areas where you can be 4NM from the center of any airway and thus do acro without any permission or notification.
 
Bill said:
Maybe its been mentioned, but why not get flight following while in the practice area?
Click to expand...
I confess I have never tried this. My usual practice area is under the outer shelf of class B southeast of Tampa. TPA approach is busy, but I suppose they might appreciate me being on freq.
 
Was floating inverted over the top of a reverse cuban 8 a few days ago, and I spotted traffic at same altitude a mile or two away. Was just a fleeting glimpse, so I could not get aspect or direction. I continued with the maneuver to a 45 inverted dive and half roll upright. Did clearing turns but could not spot the traffic again.

I had removed my phone to charge it, so I was not monitoring ADS-B.

I don't suppose there is a way to get historical playback of tracks in an area?
 
murphey said:
This interests me because NE Colorado has a locally-known APA not charted on Denver VFR maps due east of class B and a common route for aircraft coming/going between the Front Range area and everything east. There are charted APA (including USAF Academy) and 5 or 6 more with an airplane icon with G for glider but not acro.. More info is in the AFD but how many people read the AFD these days? The area is further east than the Denver maps covers so another map is needed. Why am I interested? Because our university flight team practices there and I often drive out to help.
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There is a Foreflight overlay available on the CPA website. No idea if it covers everything, but it’s pretty extensive.

1706614409870.png
 
Ed Haywood said:
I confess I have never tried this. My usual practice area is under the outer shelf of class B southeast of Tampa. TPA approach is busy, but I suppose they might appreciate me being on freq.
Click to expand...

If you try this, be sure to tell ‘em when you’re starting an acro routine lest you scare the bejeebers out of them and they declare an emergency for you.
 
BTW, Ed - it’s tough for you to see other traffic while you’re flipping and flopping and flying, so can you make it easier for others to see you? Do you have a smoke system you can use?
 
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