Used Engines

[Dbarbee]

I have some questions for those of you that have been through the purchase of a used mid-time engine. What are the customary questions to ask and items to test/inspect? How accommodating are salvages like Wentworth to allowing a pre-buy inspection and to what extent?

The engine would be the exact model as the original and going on a certificated airplane.

Any experiences, lessons learned, and other advice would be appreciated.

 

[Grum.Man]

I have never had good luck with used engines. I am sure there are some good ones out there but my experience has been they are for sale for a reason. About the only way I would consider one is if I needed to get my airplane airworthy immediately. Otherwise I would be looking at a field overhaul of my own. The only other reason I would consider used is if mine had a catastrophic failure that would require replacing major components or even to the point where it isn't worth core value.

 

[jsstevens]

I've wondered (as a never-having-owned-an-airplane sort) if it would be worthwhile to buy a core, have it rebuilt, then simply do a swap with the old engine and sell the old one as a core to save down time. Clearly you'd want a good core and you'd have money tied up while it was going on, but it seems you'd come out pretty close on total expenditures and save potentially a lot of down time.

 

[Dbarbee]

I have never had good luck with used engines. I am sure there are some good ones out there but my experience has been they are for sale for a reason. About the only way I would consider one is if I needed to get my airplane airworthy immediately. Otherwise I would be looking at a field overhaul of my own. The only other reason I would consider used is if mine had a catastrophic failure that would require replacing major components or even to the point where it isn't worth core value.

Sorry, I should have mentioned, my engine did have a catastrophic failure so it has very little core value. (Loss of oil pressure followed by a broken rod) I found a listing for an engine with 17 hours SMOH at Wentworth so I'm assuming some kind of airframe damage totaled the airplane but I haven't called them yet. Another question for those that have experience with Wentworth, are they a fairly trustworthy company to deal with?

 

[unsafervguy]

any used engine is going to be a crap shoot. I bought a 360 from wentworth 20 years ago sight unseen with no logs for 8500 bucks. ive been flying behind it for 16 years. still runs great and clean filters and good compressions. ive seen others that crap out after a couple of hours. even pulling a few cyls will not tell the whole story. it all comes down to what you pay for it. at 8500 i figured even if i had to rebuild it before i flew it, if the crank was good i got a good deal. turns out I got a great deal. as grum man said, most of the time a good field overhaul is the best route to take.

 

[Dbarbee]

I've wondered (as a never-having-owned-an-airplane sort) if it would be worthwhile to buy a core, have it rebuilt, then simply do a swap with the old engine and sell the old one as a core to save down time. Clearly you'd want a good core and you'd have money tied up while it was going on, but it seems you'd come out pretty close on total expenditures and save potentially a lot of down time.

The only core I've been able to locate so far was asking $9,500 plus shipping. Two engine overhaul shops had a core they would overhaul for an outright purchase but they each wanted ~$10,000 for their cores. With any of these options I'd still be down for another 2-3 months waiting for the overhaul, return shipping, and installation. (I've already been down for 2-1/2 months) That's what's making a used engine so attractive if it doesn't turn out to be too good to be true.

 

[jsstevens]

The only core I've been able to locate so far was asking $9,500 plus shipping. Two engine overhaul shops had a core they would overhaul for an outright purchase but they each wanted ~$10,000 for their cores. With any of these options I'd still be down for another 2-3 months waiting for the overhaul, return shipping, and installation. (I've already been down for 2-1/2 months) That's what's making a used engine so attractive if it doesn't turn out to be too good to be true.

Yes, in your case the only quick (relatively) way back in the air is either a used or new engine that's ready to hang. I was (sorry for the thread derail) speculating as to ways to speed up the process if you have a running engine that's getting close to overhaul.

 

[unsafervguy]

as to if wentworth is trustworthy, my dealings with them was top notch. they told me everything they knew about the engine, which was not much, but it was at core price. they can only tell you what they know and that is mostly just what is in the log books and the insurance adjuster they bought it from tells them. if you don't have a usable core, talk to a reputable engine shop, they can usually find the parts you need at a decent price to build you a engine. my engine shop just got me a better deal on a drop in 160 upgrade than he could rebuild mine for.

 

[painless]

As has been said, purchasing a midtime engine can be a roll of the dice. Pluses to look for include full logs you can review, and the fact the engine has been run regularly until removal. Also if it has been removed for a power upgrade. I literally stumbled onto such an engine, an O320 E2D for my RV.

 

[Tom-D]

Sorry, I should have mentioned, my engine did have a catastrophic failure so it has very little core value. (Loss of oil pressure followed by a broken rod) I found a listing for an engine with 17 hours SMOH at Wentworth so I'm assuming some kind of airframe damage totaled the airplane but I haven't called them yet. Another question for those that have experience with Wentworth, are they a fairly trustworthy company to deal with?

They are the biggest and best salvage company anywhere.
they do warrantee their engines.

 

[Bell206]

Any experiences,

It's doable. Wentworth top shelf. Have bought a few projects from them complete with engine. Just be sure to get whoever will install it for you onboard now as they will be determining engine's airworthiness for installation.

 

[Dbarbee]

Thanks for the input so far, it's really helpful!

More info: Turns out the Wentworth engine is a prop strike. (Landed in a corn field after apparent fuel exhaustion) Not a deal breaker but not as ideal as I was hoping. At least if I go with this engine I'll "know" what's inside after the inspection. Factory new cylinders and overhauled by Signature Aircraft Engines Oct 2016.

Anyone have any feedback on Signature Aircraft engines or the cost of a prop strike inspection?

 

[Donny Hughes]

If it landed after fuel exhaustion . Not under power . Would that be a prop strike ?

 

[Tom-D]

Thanks for the input so far, it's really helpful!

More info: Turns out the Wentworth engine is a prop strike. (Landed in a corn field after apparent fuel exhaustion) Not a deal breaker but not as ideal as I was hoping. At least if I go with this engine I'll "know" what's inside after the inspection. Factory new cylinders and overhauled by Signature Aircraft Engines Oct 2016.

Anyone have any feedback on Signature Aircraft engines or the cost of a prop strike inspection?

Continental ... if the crank shaft flange dials out .005" or less you are good to go. There is no AD or requirement to tear down.

 

[JAWS]

There is no AD or requirement to tear down.

No specific AD, but TCM does have their own requirements in their standard practices manual. I would recommend it with an unknown engine.
Standard Practice Maintenance Manual 6-153
30 May 2016 CHANGE 1
Engine Inspection and Service

6-5. Unscheduled Maintenance
6-5.1. Propeller Strike
A propeller strike is any incident (whether or not the engine is operating) in which the
propeller contacts a foreign object that 1)results in the necessity to repair the propeller
blade(s) (other than minor blade dressing) or 2)results in loss of engine RPM at the time of
contact. Propeller strikes can cause engine and component damage even if the propeller
continues to rotate. This damage can result in catastrophic engine failure.
WARNING
Do not attempt to dress a propeller blade without consulting
the propeller manufacturer's instructions. Stresses imposed on
the propeller are more concentrated in areas that are nicked
and cut. They may act as stress risers. Stress risers weaken the
blade and can eventually cause the blade to fracture.
In cases where a small foreign object such as a small stone, strikes the propeller during
operation, inspect and repair the propeller according to the propeller manufacturer’s
instructions. If foreign object damage requires removal of the propeller for repair(s)
perform the “Propeller Strike Inspection” in Section 6-5.1.1.
6-5.1.1. Propeller Strike Inspection
Following any propeller strike, disassemble and inspect all rotating engine components
prior to further flight; correct all unserviceable conditions. Inspect all engine driven
components according to the manufacturer’s instructions for continued airworthiness.
Procedure
1. Remove the propeller; inspect according to propeller manufacturer’s instructions.
2. Remove the engine from the aircraft according to the instructions in Section 5-1.
3. Disassemble the engine completely according to instructions in the primary ICA
(Ref: Section 1-1.1).
4. Regardless of condition, replace all counterweight pins, bushings, end plates and
snap rings. Replace all connecting rod nuts and bolts, regardless of condition.
5. Thoroughly clean the crankshaft according to instructions in Chapter 12; all
surfaces, especially those forward of the front main bearing, must be free of paint,
sludge, or any substance that may mask cracks.
6. Perform a “Magnetic Particle Inspection” on the crankshaft, connecting rods, gears
and remaining steel internal engine parts according to instructions in Section 11-3.
7. Strip the crankcase of all paint and clean the crankcase thoroughly according to
instructions in Chapter 12; all surfaces must be free of paint, sludge, or any
substance that may mask reliable inspection.
8. Perform a “Fluorescent Penetrant Inspection” on the crankcase according to
instructions in Section 11-2, paying particular attention to the forward crankcase
bearing support and adjacent structure.
9. Inspect the remainder of the engine according to the instructions in the primary ICA
(Section 1-1.1).
10. Perform the aircraft inspections required by the aircraft manufacturer.
11. Inspect all engine accessories according to the manufacturer’s instructions.
12. Assemble the engine according to instructions in the primary ICA (Section 1-1.1).
13. Install the engine in the aircraft according to the instructions in Section 5-2.

 

[Tom-D]

No specific AD, but TCM does have their own requirements in their standard practices manual.

Do you now the difference between a standard practices manual and a federal regulation?

 

[Tom-D]

How many mechanics here would spend upwards of $20,000 on a customers engine with out knowing it was tested and proven bad?

That is what JAW's wants you to do.

 

[Tbag]

What kind of engine are you looking for? I have a 0320

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

 

[Tom-D]

No specific AD, but TCM does have their own requirements in their standard practices manual. I would recommend it with an unknown engine.
Standard Practice Maintenance Manual 6-153
30 May 2016 CHANGE 1
Engine Inspection and Service

6-5. Unscheduled Maintenance
6-5.1. Propeller Strike
A propeller strike is any incident (whether or not the engine is operating) in which the
propeller contacts a foreign object that 1)results in the necessity to repair the propeller
blade(s) (other than minor blade dressing) or 2)results in loss of engine RPM at the time of
contact. Propeller strikes can cause engine and component damage even if the propeller
continues to rotate. This damage can result in catastrophic engine failure.
WARNING
Do not attempt to dress a propeller blade without consulting
the propeller manufacturer's instructions. Stresses imposed on
the propeller are more concentrated in areas that are nicked
and cut. They may act as stress risers. Stress risers weaken the
blade and can eventually cause the blade to fracture.
In cases where a small foreign object such as a small stone, strikes the propeller during
operation, inspect and repair the propeller according to the propeller manufacturer’s
instructions. If foreign object damage requires removal of the propeller for repair(s)
perform the “Propeller Strike Inspection” in Section 6-5.1.1.
6-5.1.1. Propeller Strike Inspection
Following any propeller strike, disassemble and inspect all rotating engine components
prior to further flight; correct all unserviceable conditions. Inspect all engine driven
components according to the manufacturer’s instructions for continued airworthiness.
Procedure
1. Remove the propeller; inspect according to propeller manufacturer’s instructions.
2. Remove the engine from the aircraft according to the instructions in Section 5-1.
3. Disassemble the engine completely according to instructions in the primary ICA
(Ref: Section 1-1.1).
4. Regardless of condition, replace all counterweight pins, bushings, end plates and
snap rings. Replace all connecting rod nuts and bolts, regardless of condition.
5. Thoroughly clean the crankshaft according to instructions in Chapter 12; all
surfaces, especially those forward of the front main bearing, must be free of paint,
sludge, or any substance that may mask cracks.
6. Perform a “Magnetic Particle Inspection” on the crankshaft, connecting rods, gears
and remaining steel internal engine parts according to instructions in Section 11-3.
7. Strip the crankcase of all paint and clean the crankcase thoroughly according to
instructions in Chapter 12; all surfaces must be free of paint, sludge, or any
substance that may mask reliable inspection.
8. Perform a “Fluorescent Penetrant Inspection” on the crankcase according to
instructions in Section 11-2, paying particular attention to the forward crankcase
bearing support and adjacent structure.
9. Inspect the remainder of the engine according to the instructions in the primary ICA
(Section 1-1.1).
10. Perform the aircraft inspections required by the aircraft manufacturer.
11. Inspect all engine accessories according to the manufacturer’s instructions.
12. Assemble the engine according to instructions in the primary ICA (Section 1-1.1).
13. Install the engine in the aircraft according to the instructions in Section 5-2.

Anyway that is the biggest cover your a$$ statement I've seen.

 

[JAWS]

Do you now the difference between a standard practices manual and a federal regulation?

Yep. No regulation says you can't do more than the federal minimum either.

How many mechanics here would spend upwards of $20,000 on a customers engine with out knowing it was tested and proven bad?

Over the internet and not knowing anything about this engine, this is my advice.

Anyway that is the biggest cover your a$$ statement I've seen.

Yep!

 

[Tom-D]

Over the internet and not knowing anything about this engine, this is my advice.

I'd advise to install the engine and test it, You may like what you have. IF there is a discrepancy, you'll know what it is. and return it to the seller, to get your money back.

Why would you tear the used engine down, just to find it is junk, and then not be able to send it back?
Wentworth will not take back any engine you've disassembled, they will honor their warrantee if it is a bad engine.

 

[JAWS]

Why would you tear the used engine down, just to find it is junk ...

Kind of the point of doing a prop strike inspection, isn't it?

Wentworth will not take back any engine you've disassembled, they will honor their warrantee if it is a bad engine.

That might be.

I have little tolerance for taking on risk. Maybe at one time in my career, but not now. An unknown smacked engine might go a long time and be ok. Maybe it will go 500 hours and start making metal. Maybe it will go 20 hours and a cracked journal will let go. I would rather advocate the conservative route for safety and liability sake, especially over the internet.

If you feel otherwise, you are free to roll the dice.

 

[Salty]

I love you Tom. Truly.

The only way to know if an engine is going to kill you is to fly it until it kills you.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Thanks for the input so far, it's really helpful!

More info: Turns out the Wentworth engine is a prop strike. (Landed in a corn field after apparent fuel exhaustion) Not a deal breaker but not as ideal as I was hoping. At least if I go with this engine I'll "know" what's inside after the inspection. Factory new cylinders and overhauled by Signature Aircraft Engines Oct 2016.

Anyone have any feedback on Signature Aircraft engines or the cost of a prop strike inspection?

Was the rebuild after the forced landing? If so, did they do the inspection at that time? Engine sitting about 2 1/2 years, probably "pickled".

 

[Tom-D]

I love you Tom. Truly.

The only way to know if an engine is going to kill you is to fly it until it kills you.

There ya go again. Did you read "I'd test the engine"? you'll test a brand new engine prior to flying it, what's the difference.

every engine operating now is in your category.
Ever think, Every one flys a used engine?

 

[Tom-D]

Kind of the point of doing a prop strike inspection, isn't it?



That might be.

I have little tolerance for taking on risk. Maybe at one time in my career, but not now. An unknown smacked engine might go a long time and be ok. Maybe it will go 500 hours and start making metal. Maybe it will go 20 hours and a cracked journal will let go. I would rather advocate the conservative route for safety and liability sake, especially over the internet.

If you feel otherwise, you are free to roll the dice.

Then you admit you'd take a mid time good running engine and tear it down not knowing if it was bad or not.

You must know, even Lycomings AD doesn't require a full tear down.

 

[Grum.Man]

Yes absolutely I would tear any engine down that had a prop strike. I would rather find out on the ground it's bad than in the air.

 

[Tom-D]

Yes absolutely I would tear any engine down that had a prop strike. I would rather find out on the ground it's bad than in the air.

The engine the op spoke of does not constitute a prop strike.
Read TCM's SB on the subject.

With that in mind, I'd advise you never buy any engine under warrantee from the seller like Wentworth. because you tear it down, you own it.
If the crank was turned to its limit, and worn, you could not return it to service, but had you left it alone, it would have run to TBO and beyond.

 

[Tom-D]

Every one here worries about cracks and other things being done to a crank and rods in quick stopped engine.

I wonder why Lycoming and TCM doesn't? Neither company has a requirement to inspect the rotating group of their engines.
Lycoming wants the dowel pin and washer replaced, only when it meets their requirement of a prop strike. TCM only wants the (SB complied) engine inspected after the prop is hit bad enough to require it be removed to be repaired.
I would very seriously doubt the OP's engine meets either requirement.

 

[Salty]

We’re talking about an engine that was not in your possession when it struck, or afterward for some time. Not the same thing as if you had the prop strike yourself. Giant question marks

I have to ask myself why was the engine sold and not used by the original owner?

 

[Grum.Man]

The engine the op spoke of does not constitute a prop strike.
Read TCM's SB on the subject.

With that in mind, I'd advise you never buy any engine under warrantee from the seller like Wentworth. because you tear it down, you own it.
If the crank was turned to its limit, and worn, you could not return it to service, but had you left it alone, it would have run to TBO and beyond.

I would never buy a used engine especially from a wrecked airplane that has most likely been sitting for an extended period of time with intention of using it without at least a tear down so no worries there.

 

[Tom-D]

I would never buy a used engine especially from a wrecked airplane that has most likely been sitting for an extended period of time with intention of using it without at least a tear down so no worries there.

That's just you, in actuality the market on used engine is very good.

I do not know where/why you think that the engine in question sat any length of time.
lots of wrecks happen when the engine is not operating. hurricane blow overs for example, landing in a corn field and flipping over, for another.

 

[Grum.Man]

That's just you, in actuality the market on used engine is very good

And coincidentally so is the market of wrecked airplanes.

 

[Tom-D]

And coincidentally so is the market of wrecked airplanes.

Different subject.
I just saw a 185 totaled for a dent in the leading edge from a dock pole, it was not running, simply being re-positioned and the wind blew it into the dock pole.
It really didn't make sense to total it. but the insurance company did.

 

[Grum.Man]

Different subject.

You hope

 

[bnt83]

I wanna know what happened to the OP's engine. Ok it threw a rod, what caused that? oil loss? where did it go?

I hear it all the time Lycoming 360 series is "bullet proof", plenty of cracked cases and snapped cylinder studs say otherwise. Throwing a rod seems unusual tho.

 

[Tom-D]

I wanna know what happened to the OP's engine. Ok it threw a rod, what caused that? oil loss? where did it go?

I hear it all the time Lycoming 360 series is "bullet proof", plenty of cracked cases and snapped cylinder studs say otherwise. Throwing a rod seems unusual tho.

No doubt, but the OPs engine is not the one I was speaking of. The one in this discussion is the used engine from Wentworth.
Engines will throw rods when you run them out of oil.

 

[Dbarbee]

Wow, a lot of activity on this thread since I was able to check last, thanks for all of the feedback!

If it landed after fuel exhaustion . Not under power . Would that be a prop strike ?

I wondered the same thing. From the pictures that Wentworth sent one of the prop blades is bent back only slightly and there are no obvious scratches, dings, or dents on either blade. It appears that the prop was stopped and the lower blade hit the soft ground on landing and was bent back slightly. IF that's what happened it definitely wouldn't be "sudden stoppage" but I don't know if it would fit the requirements for inspection. Regardless, it was sold as a prop strike and I'm OK with getting an inspection since it was a good price, likely has little or no damage, and I don't know how/if the engine was preserved since it ran last. I also don't know the reputation of the shop that did the overhaul.

Continental ... if the crank shaft flange dials out .005" or less you are good to go. There is no AD or requirement to tear down.

What kind of engine are you looking for? I have a 0320

It's a Lycoming O-360-A1F6D 180 HP. It was only used on Cardinal the 177B so there's not an overabundance of them out there.

Wentworth will not take back any engine you've disassembled, they will honor their warrantee if it is a bad engine.

That may be true for a complete running engine but apparently not for prop strikes. From Wentworth: "We will guarantee all parts to pass inspection or overhaul." The salesman on the phone also told me that if any parts are bad they will either replace them or reimburse me for them.

Was the rebuild after the forced landing? If so, did they do the inspection at that time? Engine sitting about 2 1/2 years, probably "pickled".

The forced landing was at 17 SMOH and 2,050 SNEW. The engine sitting without being preserved is one of the big reasons I'm OK with paying for a full prop strike inspection.

...even Lycomings AD doesn't require a full tear down.

I wondered about that, I haven't had a chance to look it up yet. Even though I want an inspection, whether it's "required" or not, for the reasons I've already mentioned, I'm still curious what the OEM and regulatory guidance is.

 

[Dbarbee]

Good discussion so far and very interesting. It's really helped me, along with input from my mechanic and local engine shops, to weigh all of the risks and options.

I went ahead and pulled the trigger and bought the engine from Wentworth for $12,500 and got a quote of $10,500 from a local engine shop for the inspection. $23,000 is very near what I was quoted from two major overhaul shops for an overhaul with an additional $10,000 for the core charge. (BTW, those quotes were for overhauled cylinders and the Wentworth engine had new Lycoming cylinders installed at overhaul) The quote for inspection included teardown, inspection, new bearings, new rings, new gaskets, honing the cylinders, and overhauling the Bendix dual mag.

If the crank was turned to its limit, and worn, you could not return it to service, but had you left it alone, it would have run to TBO and beyond.

I agree that would definitely be a concern. In this case however, the overhaul report indicates the rod and main bearings are all "STD", which I'm assuming means they didn't have to turn the journals, and theoretically they should only have 17 hours of wear on them. Even if the original overhaul shop was a little liberal with the clearances and they do need to be turned, they shouldn't be beyond limits, and even if they are, Wentworth says they'll replace the crank so I'm cautiously optimistic.

I have to ask myself why was the engine sold and not used by the original owner?

The airplane was totaled by the insurance company. I believe the NTSB report said something about a bent wing spar. Besides the very slight bend in the prop and a bent nose fork, the pictures show the airframe to be fairly intact, although the wings had already been removed.

I wanna know what happened to the OP's engine. Ok it threw a rod, what caused that? oil loss? where did it go?
I hear it all the time Lycoming 360 series is "bullet proof", plenty of cracked cases and snapped cylinder studs say otherwise. Throwing a rod seems unusual tho.

One of the oil cooler hose fittings was found loose where it connects to the crankcase. The insurance company is still investigating so I don't want to comment or speculate too much but the hose had not been removed for anything recently and was showing no signs of leaking prior to the flight. (I'm meticulous about keeping the engine clean and checking for leaks) I don't think there's an engine bullet-proof enough to run for very long with no oil pressure. This one made it about 10 minutes.

 

[MIFlyer]

I have to tell you, I think you've got a winner either way, but i'd sure be tempted to hang the engine and fly it in low risk scenarios for 5 hours or so (over airports, high over easy landing terrain in day vfr, maybe even doing an oil change at 5 hours and see if you really even need to spend the 10k.