Used Airplanes. Lessons learned?

ircphoenix

ircphoenix

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ircphoenix
Okay so I've Googled much of the internets. I've seen some recent lists. I've seen articles that are nearly 20 years old. And everything in between.

1. If you could go back, what advice would you give yourself before your first plane purchase that you didn't see elsewhere?

And 2. I have a specific aircraft I'm looking at. It's been out of annual for 15 months. I asked the seller if they were planning on doing the annual. The reply was that the annual inspection "can be performed after the pre-buy, which is up to the buyer."

So does this mean he plans on letting it sit until someone buys it, then he'll do it only if the pre-buy is done? Or is he planning on making the buyer do the pre-buy and turning it into an annual?
 
ircphoenix said:
And 2. I have a specific aircraft I'm looking at. It's been out of annual for 15 months. I asked the seller if they were planning on doing the annual. The reply was that the annual inspection "can be performed after the pre-buy, which is up to the buyer."
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Below just one way to skin this cat. A number of people will be around tomorrow morning to tell you how this is crazy, they would never do this and how they have bought every aircraft with a plastic bag full of cash and done just fine. This is a 'dormant' plane, it could be anything from a great buy with a motivated seller to a basket case that costs more in repairs than what it's worth. So again, this is one way of dealing with such a plane:



Bring YOUR mechanic to look at the plane (with 'your' mechanic I mean the guy who will be doing your annuals going forward).

First step: Looks through the logs, checks status on important ADs, gives the plane a once-over for no more than two hours to tell you whether it is worth investing any more money or time into it. If he thinks its a basket case, you end it right there. You pay for his travel and his two or three hours of work. A good mechanic should be able to tell in short order whether the project is worth doing.

If you get past the 'show stoppers' (major corrosion, junked engine etc.) and he tells you 'I think this may be a good buy', you have him do a detailed pre-buy/annual of the plane.

Once he has all the plates off, checked compression, scoped the cylinders, maybe removed one push-tube to look into the case, changed the oil cut the filter etc. he gives you a detailed list of:

'must dos': airworthiness items that would keep the plane from getting signed off for an annual

'really should dos': deferred maintenance items that should be done but are not necessary to get the plane signed off for an annual.

'nice to haves': Things that are worth fixing or upgrading while the plane is open, cosmetic stuff, adding instruments, removing dead avionics....

You then go back to the seller and and get him to pay for all 'must dos' and as many of the 'really should dos' as possible in the form of a price adjustment. Any upgrades, cosmetic improvements and other 'nice to haves' are your problem.

#1 If you find an agreement with the seller, the price gets adjusted and the sale gets executed. Now it's your plane and the shop gets to work to do everything on the discrepancy list. Once they are done, the IA signs off on the annual.

#2 If you don't find an agreement with the seller on the price adjustments and you end up not buying the plane, your mechanic closes up the plane, leaves everything in the condition he found it. The seller pays for the oil change and filter, you pay the IA for time and expenses.

Now the sticky part is what to do documentation wise in case #2. Once an IA has conducted an 'inspection', he is required to document his findings. It is hard to argue that having disassembled and reassembled a plane was not an 'inspection', so some IAs will insist on documenting any discrepancies. The seller may not be interested to hear that his girlfriend is fat. Otoh, he may decide to have the IA make a logbook entry, give him the discrepancy list and work off the airworthiness items on his dime. That way he still has the expense of fixing stuff but he now has a fresh annual. You can write into your purchase contract that if the seller elects to turn it into an annual without selling the plane, that you split the inspection cost in some way.




Oh, two more things:

- never buy a plane that says 'fresh annual with sale' ;-)
- don't get roped into having the sellers mechanic do a pre-buy inspection for you.
 
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ircphoenix said:
Okay so I've Googled much of the internets. I've seen some recent lists. I've seen articles that are nearly 20 years old. And everything in between.

1. If you could go back, what advice would you give yourself before your first plane purchase that you didn't see elsewhere?

And 2. I have a specific aircraft I'm looking at. It's been out of annual for 15 months. I asked the seller if they were planning on doing the annual. The reply was that the annual inspection "can be performed after the pre-buy, which is up to the buyer."

So does this mean he plans on letting it sit until someone buys it, then he'll do it only if the pre-buy is done? Or is he planning on making the buyer do the pre-buy and turning it into an annual?
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The seller himself is giving you probably the best piece of advice there is. Do a pre-buy. My advice, a real pre-buy from a reputable AI who has lots of experience with that model aircraft who is in no way associated with the seller.

Whether or not the pre-buy becomes an annual is up to you and the AI. Negotiating the cost of the pre-buy/annual is between you and the seller.

EDIT: Sheesh, only had to read the next response to see this was covered in detail. Wish I had done it. Yup, I didn't follow the above advice and yes I got.............
 
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The first response was good. Sitting around can introduce engine corrosion but any plane can have it. A good prebuy is essential if you're unsure. It needs to be someone thorough and unbiased.
 
weilke said:
...Now the sticky part is what to do documentation wise in case #2. Once an IA has conducted an 'inspection', he is required to document his findings. It is hard to argue that having disassembled and reassembled a plane was not an 'inspection', so some IAs will insist on documenting any discrepancies. The seller may not be interested to hear that his girlfriend is fat. Otoh, he may decide to have the IA make a logbook entry, give him the discrepancy list and work off the airworthiness items on his dime. That way he still has the expense of fixing stuff but he now has a fresh annual. You can write into your purchase contract that if the seller elects to turn it into an annual without selling the plane, that you split the inspection cost in some way.....
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aaahhh. this was helpful, as I always wondered who "owned the information" out of the inspection. thanks.
 
ircphoenix said:
...And 2. I have a specific aircraft I'm looking at. It's been out of annual for 15 months. I asked the seller if they were planning on doing the annual. The reply was that the annual inspection "can be performed after the pre-buy, which is up to the buyer."...
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by any chance is this plane you're speaking of a mooney?
 
eman1200 said:
aaahhh. this was helpful, as I always wondered who "owned the information" out of the inspection. thanks.
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It is not so much a question of 'ownership' of the information. Once the IA has done a defined inspection, he has to document it. The only way around it is if he says 'we really just did this for fun and I didn't see nuthin'.

If you dont have an agreement with the seller, there is nothing that stops him from giving the IA $300 in cash in exchange for a signoff with or without discrepancies. That way, the seller would get the bulk of the 'basic annual' out of you for free. Arguably, that would create an incentive for the seller to let the sale fall through after you have spent the money on the annual. If you have an agreement on him paying in case of a non-sale, there is less of a temptation.

Put everything on paper. Don't let the shop just go off on an inspect-o-rama without clear stop point. Some real tales of woe out there where miscommunication left people with disassembled planes, mechanics liens and lots of headache on both sides.
 
this may or may not be anything, but what was the reason the plane is out of annual? was it financial? Just wondering if the owner was the type that addressed squawks or let things slide to save a dime. May not be either; he could have lost his medical and stopped flying, but just something to consider.
 
If the IA allows owner assistance, try to be there when they put the plane back together (assuming that you bought it). If down the line you have a maintenance issue, it is much easier to understand where the dinglearm connects to the reciprocating phasic deplenerator after you have seen the plane with all the inspection covers removed.
 
Weilke... awesome info. Thanks! Wouldn't dream of making ANY purchase without a prebuy from an outside party to the sale. My only question would be for an out of state plane that I probably won't be visiting (which applies to another aircraft or two on my list). How do you find a reputable mechanic?

Tis not a Mooney. Tis a Cherokee. I've been advised to steer clear of Mooneys in my price range.

And I have no idea what the reason is for the plane being out of annual. The seller replied that the plane blue books for 11 AMU higher than he's asking, so it is all on the buyer. This very much sounds like a trap to me... but I'm new to the world of airplane buying and just assume everyone is out to screw me. Lol
 
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Unless I was buying a "project", I personally would not buy an airplane that I couldn't flight test in some fashion.
 
With a 'commodity plane' like a Pa28 or 172 there is rarely a reason to go 1/2 way across the country.
 
weilke said:
With a 'commodity plane' like a Pa28 or 172 there is rarely a reason to go 1/2 way across the country.
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Unless you want a fun flight back home.

My first plane was a 172. Everything I looked at locally wasn't what I wanted. Found one down in Georgia. Did a prebuy. When that looked good, had them do an annual. Flew down, gave them a check, flew home. Helps if the seller is trustworthy. He had a bunch of other planes, and the 172 was for his son's IFR training. Now its mine for my IFR trianing.
 
Best advice is buy an airplane with the features you want, then keep it stock. Get as much info online before you bother to go there, like copies of the logs and w&b. Fly it with the owner or and instructor and see if all the doodads work. Write down what doesn't. Open the inspection holes and look for corrosion. Take a seat out if you have to. Give it a compression test. Then offer X% less than the seller is offering (you choose the X) and negotiate from there. Realize that if you travel far to look at it that is an expense and time. More time and expense you put into it, the harder it is to say no. So "causually drop by becasuse you are in the neighborhood" is not a bad way to start.
 
Squanto84 said:
I'm really interested in hearing some insight from others about this half of his post:
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Honestly? I'd change nothing. And here's why. I did the least amount of due diligence on my first airplane, but it was a $15K C-150 so the folly didn't burn me. About the one thing I realized in that adventure was that I outgrew the mission the second I bought it. It made a lousy traveler, but it got me in the air to putt around and do touch n gos in tight grass strips to distract me from the fact I was bored out of my skull flying the B-52 at work a meager twice a week. I also had no money to buy anything better at the time. It certainly didn't eat me out of house and home, and didn't cost me much to buy or sell.

So to address your question, all the pre-existing advice on here about exigent due diligence and treating the airplane pre-buy processes like a damn airline merger is 100% damn sound advice... but if I had followed that school I would have spent too much time, money and aggravation getting hung up on the small details for no appreciable gain in utility value for the airplane class and price point of airplanes I've actually owned. At this low end of commodity class of airplanes, that process is overkill and more obstruction to your entry into basic ownership than it's worth. I'm not trying to be flippant, but I don't think the advice on here applies to simple, high-volume airplanes below a certain $ value. That's something I'd leave to 80K+ airplane high performance singles, and all twin purchases of course. People who think surprises won't happen to them because of a laborious, heavily-time-protracted and cantankerous back and forth pre-buy triathlon was endured, are deluding themselves.

I know the zealots don't want to give credence to my approach to airplane buying, but my cursory DIY approach to has proven successful to me in spite of the risks. In my case, sticking with simpleton airframes like the PA-28R or 32 or the C-172/182 has proven simple enough for the beginner owner to navigate through without formal and money-depleting hand holding. And that's with my AP scalping me on the labor mind you. Of course I also have a greater tolerance to fly well-worn airplanes, whereas other folk might display aversion to anything that's not "logbook cherry", even if I were to suggest their sense of security for the premium paid is just a placebo compared to operating my unsightly ship. But I digress.

Selling the airplane OTOH, that has been another matter entirely. Easily my most hated part of this hobby for me. Having buyers approach me with that "we want to quarantine your airplane as part of these negotiations" when I was floating the danged thing for 25-30K, was just something I had no patience for. Go away with that nonsense. It's a Warrior man, take a look at it, look at the logs, fly the thing, throw me a price and take it or walk away. Either way I don't care, but rate of play man, I got other things to care for in my life than a 30K transaction. My last sale was a protracted nightmare, and a logistics hassle to be frank. The 150 was sweet by comparison. Guy showed up and gave me 1.3 stacks of high society in an envelope; I've never been more nervous and in a hurry to make it to the bank to get all that heat off my body before a stick-up were to befall me. LOL If we were talking about 75K+ AMUs, certainly I would be more sensitive towards people's need and desire for bogging down the liquidity of the transaction. But not at this level of the market. Thankfully, my wife doesn't own my avocational decisions and generally stays on her own lane in this relationship, thus I don't have to dispense with my paid-off toys with any level of economic duress or external pressure that puts timing constraints on me. So I can afford to tell people to go away if they get too uppity about the pre-buy process.

weilke said:
With a 'commodity plane' like a Pa28 or 172 there is rarely a reason to go 1/2 way across the country.
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Eggggggggzactly! One of the very reasons I've stuck with the relative "indignity" of owning a mediocre airplane like the PA-28 series (as far as the peanut gallery regards them anyways), is precisely its commodity status. I can part-source it easier than a damn automobile, drop it anywhere in the CONUS to get worked on, and be in and out of any corner of this Country and be on my way. It's also easy to buy, stupid easy to find qualified mx for it, and a large market (training market, especially in the bottom end) to sell to, which adds to my liquidity of transaction at sell time. In short, it's easy to get rid of. The only thing that's keeping me from jumping into the Comanche train is that commodity status. I hate "specialty mx", "club type" and cantankerous orphaned AD-laden airplanes. In that regard the PA-28 has me SPOILED. Of course, I am human after all, so the allure of more speed and more climb seduces me into behaving against my better judgement :D Must. Fight. Temptation. LOL

That's what makes it ultimately a good value for me. Those are qualities that seldom appear in most people's valuations of the airplane, otherwise usually revolving around distractions about a couple gallons fuel burn delta here and there, discussions about interior dimensions that hover in the order to 2 or less inches in any direction, or +/- 15 knots of cruise speed on a calm wind day that never happens.
 
If you are looking at a Cherokee and fly in high temperatures in the summer, I would want at least 160HP (Cherokee 160 or 180 or upgraded 150). In a hot climate, take off and climb performance anywhere near gross weight with less HP is miserable and can be interesting in an undesirable way. There is an STC for taking some of the 150HP engines up to 160 but not others. It is just a piston change out for higher compression pistons. The modified plane will frequently be called a cherokee 140/160. If done at overhaul, the extra cost is moderate. The engines that can be upgraded have a long main bearing in the nose position. The ones that can't have two small bearings in place of that one big one.
 
Stay calm,listen to the mechanic your going to trust to maintain your aircraft. If it's your first plane ,keep your emotions in check. Good luck.
 
Graueradler said:
If you are looking at a Cherokee and fly in high temperatures in the summer, I would want at least 160HP (Cherokee 160 or 180 or upgraded 150). In a hot climate, take off and climb performance anywhere near gross weight with less HP is miserable and can be interesting in an undesirable way. There is an STC for taking some of the 150HP engines up to 160 but not others. It is just a piston change out for higher compression pistons. The modified plane will frequently be called a cherokee 140/160. If done at overhaul, the extra cost is moderate. The engines that can be upgraded have a long main bearing in the nose position. The ones that can't have two small bearings in place of that one big one.
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I don't fly high or hot. Southern California doesn't get that hot or that high. BUT I'm still shopping for a 180. I got used to an SP with 180, so now I'm spoiled. Would like a fuel injected engine... and the Arrows look nice, but I have to stick with straight legs due to other considerations.
 
Get your discount for the poor condition of an airplane up front. If it's missing logs, they will always be missing and YOU will be stuck when you sell it.

Run from an airplane out of annual. See above except that you don't really know what it's going to cost to get it legal AND safe. Your mechanic won't be able to see it all either. You're buying something without knowing it's value.

Buying an airplane is a business transaction. Place the value and if you don't get how you value it, walk away.
 
weilke said:
maybe removed one push-tube to look into the case,
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How in the world do you see any thing thru a push-rod tube opening? I believe you credibility just took a hike.
 
ircphoenix said:
Okay so I've Googled much of the internets. I've seen some recent lists. I've seen articles that are nearly 20 years old. And everything in between.

1. If you could go back, what advice would you give yourself before your first plane purchase that you didn't see elsewhere?

And 2. I have a specific aircraft I'm looking at. It's been out of annual for 15 months. I asked the seller if they were planning on doing the annual. The reply was that the annual inspection "can be performed after the pre-buy, which is up to the buyer."

So does this mean he plans on letting it sit until someone buys it, then he'll do it only if the pre-buy is done? Or is he planning on making the buyer do the pre-buy and turning it into an annual?
Click to expand...
It would be nice to know your budget, and mission.
 
My budget is less than 50k total acquisition. And my mission is sorta irrelevant to my intent in this thread. I already know what plane I'm looking for.

This is about "What would you do differently if you had to do it over again." Twas my mistake incorporating question #2. That really kinda deserved a post all its own.
 
The first plane I looked at I didn't do my own due diligence before I let the mx look at it for a pre-buy. Ultimately wasn't an extremly costly mistake, especially since I got to help with the pre-buy and I feel I got my few $100 worth of edication.
Do a FAA and NTSB search on the tail # yourself. Find any accidents, leins, status of registration etc. (This is where I went wrong. Seller/partner said it was involved in a gear up. Translated: guy ran out of fuel, clipped the top of a house and then geared up. Damage was repaired well many years ago and had flown many hours since). Mx.brought it to my attention when we were looking through the log books.
Again, not a major thing but something you could do.
Also, just see if you can get e-copies of the log books, or just sit down with the hard copies. Even if you don't know exactly what you are looking at you can pick up on trends to ask someone more knowledgeable. Look at compressions, hrs flown/ year, oil changes regular, etc.
Just my 0.02. I looked at/did a pre-buy on an arrow, and then had the opportunity to join a partnership so that's all the experience I have with airplane ownership.
 
No one yet has said, " get the CD from OKC on the history of the aircraft, see who is the legal owner/seller of the aircraft. did all the 337s get recorded?
 
ircphoenix said:
My budget is less than 50k total acquisition. And my mission is sorta irrelevant to my intent in this thread. I already know what plane I'm looking for.
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If this is true, have you looked up every AD due for this airframe, engine, and prop, plus every appliance installed? and be familiar with how it should be complied with?
 
I bought a Phoenix plane and brought it home to TX. A mistake I made was not getting all of the "included" accessories in the delivery. I eventually got the sun shade (critical on an RV-6 in TX) and the right toe brake kit. I still have not received my Aux fuel tank and a couple of small items.

I consider the seller a friend. I'm sure I'll get the rest of my stuff. But the lesson of get EVERYTHING you've included in the sale is well learned.
 
Tom-D said:
If this is true, have you looked up every AD due for this airframe, engine, and prop, plus every appliance installed? and be familiar with how it should be complied with?
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You asked what my mission was. I stated that my mission is sort of irrelevant to the purposes of this thread, as this thread is not about what plane I am looking to buy, as I already know what make/model of aircraft I am looking for. This is still true, as I've evaluated my mission, and determined that a Cherokee 180 is the best fit.

But I will indulge you. Yes. I am broadly familiar with the ADs for the Cherokee 180 series. Since I am looking for anything 1968 or newer, I can't drill down into specific serial numbers, as I don't have a specific plane lined up. I do not know the specific ADs for the engine, prop, plus every appliance installed, as, again, I don't have a specific aircraft that I have agreed to purchase. The one I mentioned in my specific post is 1 of 5-ish ranging from 1968-1972. Depending on the aircraft it'll either be an A3A or A4A -360 variant. I am, again, broadly familiar with both. But somehow I muddled through my checkride with a DPE that was big on ADs, so I am confident in my ability to do the research on those for a specific aircraft once I decide on purchasing one. The FAA has a wonderful AD database that's very easy to browse. So easy even I can do it.

But ultimately I'd rely on a trained aviation mechanic to backstop my own knowledge on ADs... since they'd be a trained aviation mechanic.
 
Spend money on bling if you plan to resell it. Glass panel, new interior, new paint. You won't get your money back on it, but you will get more of it back than if you'd spent it on mechanical stuff and engines. People buy with their eyes, just like they do with cars and real estate.
 
ircphoenix said:
But I will indulge you.
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Indulge me or not, it would be to your advantage to be able to read the AD and be able to look to the aircraft and tell if the AD in question has been complied with. The biggie in pipers is their yoke ADs. could you tell by reading the AD and looking at the aircraft, tell If it has been complied with? I see way too many A&Ps that can not. and it is up to the owner to know if the ADs are complied with.
My best advice to all new buyers is to buy AD Log and have the Pre-buy inspectors check each one and be certain it is complied with "they must sign it off" in the book you buy from ADlog Inc. then they have skin in the game not you.

Next, I wouldn't buy a piece of junk with out the history CD from OKC. I spent 6 months chasing the title to my last 170, simply because I bought it from a guy who was not the last registered owner, and there was no paper connecting the guy who I bought it from to the last registered owner. I got lucky, and found the last registered owner and got him to sign a bill of sale from him to the guy who I bought it from, Had I not been able to do that, I would have had to scrap the aircraft. How would you like to give a lot of money to a guy then find out they did not own the aircraft. it was in g/pa's name and he is dead with no will as to who owns what. divorced woman selling the exes's and he won't sign the bill of sale, try dealing with that.

It's all what I call doing your home work prior to buying any thing. Know every thing about the make model and manufacturer prior to buying, then you won't have to hire any one and trust them to be good at what they do.
 
Here is an other gotcha, never buy any engine installed or otherwise with out a complete work order of the last over haul. you may just e buying an engine that at the last overhaul umpteen hours ago had the crank, cam, lifters re-ground to the smallest size they can be. when that engine reaches the point of overhaul, you are buying a new engine, there won't be a single re-usable part in it.
the only option you then have a factory rebuilt $$$$
 
Sounds like the seller looks at this as a 'as is where is' deal. If there were no issues with the plane, he would just pay to get it annualed and sell it at market price. Unless he is tapped out, there is no point to taking that big of a hit on price by making it a project plane.
 
That's kind of what I was thinking too. Discounting 11k and refusing to annual it sounds like there is something seriously broken. Can't so much as test fly it without spending x on the prebuy and y on the annual.... and at the end of the annual if you catch stuff that's broken, the seller has an annual someone else bought for him.
 
ircphoenix said:
Can't so much as test fly it without spending x on the prebuy and y on the annual.... and at the end of the annual if you catch stuff that's broken, the seller has an annual someone else bought for him.
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Hence the elaborate and convoluted process I suggested above to protect your interests. Oh, and use a title and escrow service for the transaction to avoid the trap of someone other than the registered owner taking your money.

It is entirely possible that this is a good buy. Nothing wrong with the plane it just got parked because the owner lost his medical and now his wife needs surgery and he just needs it gone. You go there, do a ground-run, everything looks fine and you hand over a wad of cash. Your mechanic ferries it home on a permit, performs a reasonably priced annual and you live happily ever after.

Or it turns into one of those aviation board sagas 'bohoo, I paid $20,000 for a Cherokee 180 and now the mechanic tells me that the firewall is corroded and that I need a new crank. The world is not fair'.
 
As mentioned before, Lycoming engines cannot be left dormant for long, especially in humid climates. My "boohoo/world not fair" story goes like this. I bought a Bellanca Scout float plane "project". Previous owner had seriously damaged the left wing supposedly taxiing on the water. The airplane was very low time, 350 TTAF&E, but had been sitting "for two years". I took my A&P/IA whom I had worked with for years and did a prebuy. We were both pretty busy; we drove 160 miles, did the pre-buy, drove back (airplane was stacked at a seaplane base, so couldn't fly to it). We did a cursory exam of the logbooks, a cold compression test, since the wings were off, and examined the airframe and wings for damage. The compression test was great, 78s and 79s. Long story short, I bought the airplane at a fire sale price, repaired/recovered the wing and put it in service doing commercial fish recon flying the next summer. Flew it 180 hrs in July and August. I noticed a little engine roughness toward the end of the season. At the annual in October, my mechanic (the same one) called me with "bad news". Oil screens were full of metal, cam was pitted. I asked, "how do we fix this?". He said, we don't. Engine has to be completely disassembled and overhauled. An expensive lesson, but the purchase price of the airplane was very low, I would still have bought it for that. Just good that the engine kept running as long as it did.
 
weilke said:
'must dos': airworthiness items that would keep the plane from getting signed off for an annual

'really should dos': deferred maintenance items that should be done but are not necessary to get the plane signed off for an annual.

'nice to haves': Things that are worth fixing or upgrading while the plane is open, cosmetic stuff, adding instruments, removing dead avionics....

You then go back to the seller and and get him to pay for all 'must dos' and as many of the 'really should dos' as possible in the form of a price adjustment. Any upgrades, cosmetic improvements and other 'nice to haves' are your problem.





Oh, two more things:

- never buy a plane that says 'fresh annual with sale' ;-)
- don't get roped into having the sellers mechanic do a pre-buy inspection for you.
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There is no defined ownership of who pays for the "must dos" and the other stuff. The seller may or may not adjust his price. And, the Buyer may or may not be well advised to grab the plane at the price listed, ASIS. It all depends on what can be negotiated.

I love selling stuff to people who think they have the process all figured out, trying to tell me that I, as the Seller, am responsible for X,Y, and Z. Happens a lot in Real Estate transactions, especially with real estate salespeople who are taught what is "customary". When they make the first demand that the Seller pays for X, and I say "no", it takes a lot of wind out of the rest of their negotiation. And, if they have already made the mistake of becoming emotionally invested (arranging furniture in a soon to be their's living room), or invested money in a Pre-buy, their ability to walk-away is severely limited.

A better way is to agree to:

Buyer pays for pre-buy and annual.
  • Any airworthiness items, Buyer pays for first $1,000 of repairs, Seller and Buyer split $1,001-3000, Seller responsible for everything over $3000.
  • If seller declines to pay for their shares of the repairs, Buyer can walk.
  • If more than $3000 in repairs required, Buyer can walk.
  • If Buyer Walks, and plane is in Annual, then Seller agrees to reimburse for the Annual.

Or some version of the above, so that both parties are invested in the inspection, and, the Seller knows you are trying to buy the plane (paying for the Annual and the first $1,000) and only negotiating if the plane is less than advertised, or major items discovered.


As for the last parts, My plane, I bought with the Seller's mechanic doing the pre-buy and a fresh annual. It worked out great.
 
My advice - buy what you really want and spend as much as you can afford. I started with a SR20 and within 2 weeks I knew I wanted a 22. Made it about 9 more months before I sold it for a loss and spent more than double on a 22. But now I want faster..

For pre-buys - personally I used Savvy both times. 750 bucks may seem worthless to some. However they saved me from buying a 22 in California that looked great with great logs, pedigree, maintenance but without going into detail - it would have sucked :)

My contract was simple: I will pay to transport the airplane (pilot/fuel) to a shop I choose (and return flight if necessary) The airplane I bought was advertised as "needs nothing" so I had that contract read "seller pays for everything as he stated "needs nothing" - he would not agree and we came to a deal where he pays 100% of airworthy and anything after that we could discuss but he would pay no more than 50% and either could walk from that.
 
I should add of course I paid for the pre-buy inspection as well but Savvy handles that well - they go through certain items first and if all pass then they can continue.
 
JoseCuervo said:
There is no defined ownership of who pays for the "must dos" and the other stuff. The seller may or may not adjust his price. And, the Buyer may or may not be well advised to grab the plane at the price listed, ASIS. It all depends on what can be negotiated.

I love selling stuff to people who think they have the process all figured out, trying to tell me that I, as the Seller, am responsible for X,Y, and Z. Happens a lot in Real Estate transactions, especially with real estate salespeople who are taught what is "customary". When they make the first demand that the Seller pays for X, and I say "no", it takes a lot of wind out of the rest of their negotiation. And, if they have already made the mistake of becoming emotionally invested (arranging furniture in a soon to be their's living room), or invested money in a Pre-buy, their ability to walk-away is severely limited.

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I agree wholeheartedly. Don't fall in love with it until it's sitting in you're hangar. Be ready to walk away for any reason! I've only walked away from one plane. I paid to transport the plane and inspection. By the time I said "no" (read my earlier posts) I had about 4 or 5 thousand into the bird. That has to be factored in as well as I spent another 5K doing my next pre-buy!!
 
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