Used Airplanes. Lessons learned?

JoseCuervo said:
A better way is to agree to:

Buyer pays for pre-buy and annual.
  • Any airworthiness items, Buyer pays for first $1,000 of repairs, Seller and Buyer split $1,001-3000, Seller responsible for everything over $3000.
  • If seller declines to pay for their shares of the repairs, Buyer can walk.
  • If more than $3000 in repairs required, Buyer can walk.
  • If Buyer Walks, and plane is in Annual, then Seller agrees to reimburse for the Annual.

Or some version of the above, so that both parties are invested in the inspection, and, the Seller knows you are trying to buy the plane (paying for the Annual and the first $1,000) and only negotiating if the plane is less than advertised, or major items discovered.
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As I said, 'one way to skin the cat..' is the way I suggested, there are certainly others.

I don't know why I would want to be 'invested' in fixing the hidden defects the seller was trying to sneak past me but hey, if it makes you feel better that way, sure you can do that.

If it's a true firesale price, buying as-is and assume the worst is certainly a good option for an informed buyer. A cherokee 10k below retail for a plane that hasn't been looked at in 2.5 years is not a firesale price.
 
I guess to answer your question #1, I would tell my young self to attend the pre-buy inspection and demand that the mechanic do exactly what I ask him for, not what he thinks is the best in his personal skewed opinion. Afterall, who is paying for the labor? And I would also tell myself to force the mechanic to look deeper than he recommends. Again, who is paying his bill?
 
Why wouldn't you attend your prebuy?

That's a lot of money to have in the air to not be supervising the most important inspection the plane will ever undergo.
 
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BigBadLou said:
I guess to answer your question #1, I would tell my young self to attend the pre-buy inspection and demand that the mechanic do exactly what I ask him for, not what he thinks is the best in his personal skewed opinion. Afterall, who is paying for the labor? And I would also tell myself to force the mechanic to look deeper than he recommends. Again, who is paying his bill?
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I'd think you'd want to discuss that before you hire the guy....
 
James331 said:
Why wouldn't you attend your prebuy?

That's a lot of money is the air to not supervise the most important inspection the plane will ever undergo.
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What is the normal amount of time that it takes for a mechanic to do a prebuy? Newbie trying to learn.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
What is the normal amount of time that it takes for a mechanic to do a prebuy? Newbie trying to learn.
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Depends on the plane, couple days normally.

When I got my current plant the old owner did a lot of owner assist Mx, he knew when I was going to be there with my mechanic and he had all the covers and cowlings already off for us, that saved a little time.
 
ircphoenix said:
I don't fly high or hot. Southern California doesn't get that hot or that high.
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I beg to differ.

Big Bear can easily get density altitudes over 10,000, enough to make a Warrior concerning. Mountains north of LA go up to 9000 feet, higher if you go east; San Gorgonio Peak is almost 12,000. And Palm Springs gets as hot as anywhere in the summer. Half of Southern California is desert, and several of the desert airports get stupid hot in summer, especially in the low desert (Blythe, Imperial, Palm Springs, etc.).

If you want to get both at the same time, you can go to northern Arizona or northern Nevada. Neither is THAT far.

I think you may be limiting yourself.
 
Just learn how to deal with it, I flew out of PSP and did checkouts for big bear, mostly PA28s and 172s, just know how to fly in those conditions, you don't need a monster engine for it.
 
ircphoenix said:
You asked what my mission was. I stated that my mission is sort of irrelevant to the purposes of this thread, as this thread is not about what plane I am looking to buy, as I already know what make/model of aircraft I am looking for. This is still true, as I've evaluated my mission, and determined that a Cherokee 180 is the best fit.

But I will indulge you. Yes. I am broadly familiar with the ADs for the Cherokee 180 series. Since I am looking for anything 1968 or newer, I can't drill down into specific serial numbers, as I don't have a specific plane lined up. I do not know the specific ADs for the engine, prop, plus every appliance installed, as, again, I don't have a specific aircraft that I have agreed to purchase. The one I mentioned in my specific post is 1 of 5-ish ranging from 1968-1972. Depending on the aircraft it'll either be an A3A or A4A -360 variant. I am, again, broadly familiar with both. But somehow I muddled through my checkride with a DPE that was big on ADs, so I am confident in my ability to do the research on those for a specific aircraft once I decide on purchasing one. The FAA has a wonderful AD database that's very easy to browse. So easy even I can do it.

But ultimately I'd rely on a trained aviation mechanic to backstop my own knowledge on ADs... since they'd be a trained aviation mechanic.
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So I purchased a 1967 140 / 180 last year, it was out of state, had a "current" annual, and a list of "Must fix" " nice to fix" and a few "would be an upgrade to fix" items were identified in the Pre-buy. I never saw the plane before I purchased it.. it was out of state, my Dad looked at it, and liked it but he is not mechanical at all... In the pre-buy., the Must Fix items cost was reduced from the price, and I had the shop fix them, along with a few of the Nice to fix. a Complete AD check was completed, and recorded in the log books..

I picked up the plane, and after a 20 min check out flight I left to fly it almost 600 miles home, to So Cal.. It is a great plane, still needs some things fixed, but for me it works well... several trips to Tucson and local so far, about 30 hours and now its time to start on the rest of the nice to haves... I really like the O-360 power, and fly between 9500 and 11,500 on trips... what a great little old imperfect airplane it is...

Follow the advice on getting the pre-buy done, and turn it into an annual if you purchase the plane.. overall the cost to fix everything was over 8K, we mostly split the difference at 4K off the price, and I had 3700 in the work completed.... I may not have gotten the best price, but I'm good with it and like the plane... in the end that's all that matters.. And I think you will really have a blast with a Cherokee 180...
 
MauleSkinner said:
Unless I was buying a "project", I personally would not buy an airplane that I couldn't flight test in some fashion.
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Huh? I've owned 7 planes (individually, not all at once) and I've never flight tested a single one before buying. I've sold 6 of the 7, and the new owners never flight tested a single one. Now prebuys? Of course! But a "flight test" to me when I'm selling sounds too much like "free airplane rides" .
 
tawood said:
Huh? I've owned 7 planes (individually, not all at once) and I've never flight tested a single one before buying. I've sold 6 of the 7, and the new owners never flight tested a single one. Now prebuys? Of course! But a "flight test" to me when I'm selling sounds too much like "free airplane rides" .
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I wouldn't be at all opposed to convincing the owner that I was serious before flying, but on the flip side I'd be very reluctant to buy a plane I hadn't flown.

I've only bought one, and got lucky with it. Owner let me do my tailwheel endorsement in it, with his CFI and a very fair hourly rate, and then finalize the deal.
 
rwellner98 said:
I wouldn't be at all opposed to convincing the owner that I was serious before flying, but on the flip side I'd be very reluctant to buy a plane I hadn't flown.

I've only bought one, and got lucky with it. Owner let me do my tailwheel endorsement in it, with his CFI and a very fair hourly rate, and then finalize the deal.
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I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of deal after cash exchanges hands, like a "30 minute return with no questions asked" or something, if a buyer demanded it...but NEVER before. The only time I was ever asked about a pre-purchase flight was by a non-pilot buyer. I told him, "Sure, if you're doing the flying." That ended that.
 
tawood said:
Huh? I've owned 7 planes (individually, not all at once) and I've never flight tested a single one before buying. I've sold 6 of the 7, and the new owners never flight tested a single one. Now prebuys? Of course! But a "flight test" to me when I'm selling sounds too much like "free airplane rides" .
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It's common practice even if someone wants to buy a 2k car, you want tens to hundred of thousands without a test flight? That's just called part of trying to sell a car/plane/boat etc.

I'd only offer a unairworthy type. price for a plane that the owner refused to test fly, frankly with all that I have on my plate I wouldn't even entertain a deal, I don't have time for games.
 
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use a dealer not a broker to find the aircraft you want. make sure he will buy the aircraft than send it to you for your inspection to keep or return with his ferry pilot you pay expenses of course. yes you will pay more but it is so worth it . i have never sent one back and can have almost any aircraft delivered to my door if they can find it .dont be a ass and value that relationship cause you will be buying and selling a lot of airplanes your reputation matters as well. 40 years and only one very bad one. the one i bought on a whim myself
 
Well just to update... the 180 I was looking at turned into a project plane. I had the pre-buy mechanic go inspect the plane. (It took him 2 hours). Mechanically the plane still needed another 4k worth of worth, plus paint. I made an offer at asking minus repair/paint and the owner declined. I'm not surprised. I wasn't really in a negotiating mood either, as many of the items on the plane seemed to have been pencil-whipped during annual which was literally 5 days prior to the prebuy. The owner started out great to work with, but started getting uncooperative when it came to providing logs.

Now I'm looking at a 140/160. Not what I was considering initially.... but it's 5 years newer and the avionics are better. So we'll see.
 
Don't settle on a 140 if you need a 180. You'll be selling within 2 years.
 
BigBadLou said:
I guess to answer your question #1, I would tell my young self to attend the pre-buy inspection and demand that the mechanic do exactly what I ask him for, not what he thinks is the best in his personal skewed opinion. Afterall, who is paying for the labor? And I would also tell myself to force the mechanic to look deeper than he recommends. Again, who is paying his bill?
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This ^^^
 
BigBadLou said:
I guess to answer your question #1, I would tell my young self to attend the pre-buy inspection and demand that the mechanic do exactly what I ask him for, not what he thinks is the best in his personal skewed opinion. Afterall, who is paying for the labor? And I would also tell myself to force the mechanic to look deeper than he recommends. Again, who is paying his bill?
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How do you know what to ask him to do? Are the pre-purchase checklists on the web any good?
 
Agreed with Wielke - buy your last plane first. Although I've never been able to live by that myself, your needs and your capabilities will outgrow most entry level planes before the ink is dry on bill of sale. So if you eventually want a fast, retractable family tourer, just go get that from the start. Nothing is as expensive as selling and buying a new plane 2 years later.

What is your ultimate goal with your aircraft? Once you answer that, go get that.
 
stratobee said:
Agreed with Wielke - buy your last plane first. Although I've never been able to live by that myself, your needs and your capabilities will outgrow most entry level planes before the ink is dry on bill of sale. So if you eventually want a fast, retractable family tourer, just go get that from the start. Nothing is as expensive as selling and buying a new plane 2 years later.

What is your ultimate goal with your aircraft? Once you answer that, go get that.
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There is a lot of wisdom in this approach. But there are the obvious arguments against it, too. Especially if your current budget doesn't quite fit the more capable bird. Initial purchase and recurring maintenance will be considerably more expensive. A lower cost aircraft can be a great time builder and good for IFR training. I have owned several capable retractables, was 50/50 partner on a 310 for a few years, but am now flying a fixed gear, fixed prop, 4 seater (Grumman Tiger). I'm no longer in a position to use personal airplanes for work travel which I had in the past and I'm pretty busy, so I don't get to fly as much as I once did. A simple (less expensive) plane works well for most of the flying I'm doing now.

Having said that, I often wish for more power, especially since my home base is around 6000 MSL and most of the time the density altitude is higher. I agree with the comments concerning the 180 vs 140/150. It is far cheaper to buy a bit more capability on the first purchase than to buy/then sell/then buy what you need. Good luck.
 
It'd be a very interesting to know if there was any discernible financial advantage to:

1. Buy a first plane that you sell at a loss 2 years later when you decide to step up to something better/faster.

Or

2. Buy a more beaten up but better/faster plane that you then have to upgrade or get up to speed mechanically or in avionics?

I think it would probably be a wash in costs, maybe even a slight advantage to option 2. At least that's my experience having sold two planes. Selling planes is painful. Like, really, really painful. It takes time, costs money, you get a million tire kickers, they have onerous demands and can ask the most random things like "what's the serial number of the piston ring that went into the overhaul in 1992?". If you don't find it for them, they'll haggle and say you have incomplete logs etc. It takes months, and you'll most likely end up doing repairs and upgrades as part of the condition to sell, only to find the original buyer walk away at last second because he found another plane he liked better and you have to start all over again… So selling planes is not something pleasurable and very hard to get your many back on, even if you haven't flown it more than a few hours since you bought it.
 
I'm biased, but if you're looking at under 50k, I'd look at the Socata Tampico. Built in the late millennium, comfortable, near 180 performance with a newer 160, and a 5' wide cabin.


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edo2000 said:
There is a lot of wisdom in this approach. But there are the obvious arguments against it, too. Especially if your current budget doesn't quite fit the more capable bird. Initial purchase and recurring maintenance will be considerably more expensive. A lower cost aircraft can be a great time builder and good for IFR training. I have owned several capable retractables, was 50/50 partner on a 310 for a few years, but am now flying a fixed gear, fixed prop, 4 seater (Grumman Tiger). I'm no longer in a position to use personal airplanes for work travel which I had in the past and I'm pretty busy, so I don't get to fly as much as I once did. A simple (less expensive) plane works well for most of the flying I'm doing now.

Having said that, I often wish for more power, especially since my home base is around 6000 MSL and most of the time the density altitude is higher. I agree with the comments concerning the 180 vs 140/150. It is far cheaper to buy a bit more capability on the first purchase than to buy/then sell/then buy what you need. Good luck.
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This. I mean sure... I'd love to be able to drop 80k on a pretty fuel injected high performance retract.....

But I don't have that kind of coin, and I want to get my IFR and commercial without paying someone else's plane off.
 
Tampico Trauma said:
I'm biased, but if you're looking at under 50k, I'd look at the Socata Tampico. Built in the late millennium, comfortable, near 180 performance with a newer 160, and a 5' wide cabin.


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I know. You've recommended that plane like 4 times to me now. :D Last time I looked there wasn't anything pretty out there for that price.
 
My 'last plane' will hopefully be a floatplane LSA bobbing on a dock behind my lakehouse in Florida. So, no, I don't think buying the 'last plane' first would be a good plan.

Buy the plane that suits your needs for the next couple of years. There is not only the transaction cost in buying and selling aircraft (sales tax, travel, pre-buy), there is also the money most people seem to spend during year one to get things done to their and their mechanics satisfaction. You are not going to re-coup that if you sell after a year or two.

For the most part, insurance is not a good reason to buy a simple plane first. I say 'for the most part' as it would require a lot of mentoring time to get insurance on a cabin twin or turboprop for your first airplane. But there is no benefit insurance wise to another 100 hrs of bopping around in a Warrior if your goal is to fly a SR22 or Bonanza.

There is a small difference in purchase price and very little difference in operating cost between a Cherokee 140 and a Cherokee 180. I have flown both, Warriors and Archers, 140s and 180s, the 20 extra hp make a significant difference in your ability to take off on a hot day. I would wait for the right 180 to come around. Find one that has serviceable avionics and an engine that can be expected to give you good service. For a first plane, I would stay away from a project.
 
ircphoenix said:
....
But I don't have that kind of coin, and I want to get my IFR and commercial without paying someone else's plane off.
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Forgive me if it's been mentioned earlier, but any partnership opportunities available on the field that have a decent retract (arrow, 182rg, 177rg)?
Your text I quoted above is exactly why I am a 1/4 owner in an arrow on my field.
The instant I bought into the arrow, we did my transition training/complex endorsement. After that we dived right into the instrument rating. Completed that in 6 months. Now I'm getting ready to start my commercial training, and guess what? I won't have to find a flight school with a retract to get my 10 hrs of complex time! I'll have nearly 175 hours in a complex plane by the time I'm checkride ready.

Anyways, partnerships are awesome (with the right people, plane, setup, yada yada....). Splitting maintenance, hangar, and insurance makes it more affordable!
 
ircphoenix said:
I know. You've recommended that plane like 4 times to me now. :D Last time I looked there wasn't anything pretty out there for that price.
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Sincere apologies--I have a habit of dumping that recommendation.

The only one I know of right now is in NY and a formal Riddle plane... Good example, but yeah.

Then again. There will quite possibly be a very good example with 2500tt/500 SMOH reaaaaaaaaaly soon.
 
farmerbrake said:
Anyways, partnerships are awesome (with the right people, plane, setup, yada yada....). Splitting maintenance, hangar, and insurance makes it more affordable!
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This. My monthly expense to have a A36 in a partnership is less than what some of my neighbors pay on their jet-ski.

When it comes to availability, of course I would love to be the only one. When it came to overhauling the engine, I was sure glad there were others to put a check on the table.
 
tawood said:
I wouldn't be opposed to some sort of deal after cash exchanges hands, like a "30 minute return with no questions asked" or something, if a buyer demanded it...but NEVER before. The only time I was ever asked about a pre-purchase flight was by a non-pilot buyer. I told him, "Sure, if you're doing the flying." That ended that.
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Just like the mechanical things that you find on a prepurchase inspection, there are things that one might find on a flight that would impact price negotiation. An out-of-rig airplane is going to cost money to fix just like an incomplete repair.

In my experience, it's pretty easy to tell the tire kickers from the buyers before you go for a test flight.

When I sold my 150 taildragger, I wasn't available when the buyer wanted a test flight, so we did something similar to what you suggest...funds for full asking price, bill of sale signed, and buyer's insurance in place, and he took the airplane for a flight. Back on he ground, we negotiated the actual sale price.
 
tawood said:
Huh? I've owned 7 planes (individually, not all at once) and I've never flight tested a single one before buying. I've sold 6 of the 7, and the new owners never flight tested a single one. Now prebuys? Of course! But a "flight test" to me when I'm selling sounds too much like "free airplane rides" .
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I can't imagine not offering to take a buyer on a 30 minute flight. If they are serious, what a great way to close a deal. Take them up in the plane, show them everything works, show them how you manage the plane (cooling, mixture, etc) and show them you have nothing to hide.

The reluctance of a Seller to invest ANY $$$$ in the sales process is crazy. When selling something, you are trying to out compete other competing sellers, and if other Sellers are afraid of burning 8 gallons of gas for a "free airplane ride", then you have a built in advantage.
 
JoseCuervo said:
I can't imagine not offering to take a buyer on a 30 minute flight. If they are serious, what a great way to close a deal. Take them up in the plane, show them everything works, show them how you manage the plane (cooling, mixture, etc) and show them you have nothing to hide.

The reluctance of a Seller to invest ANY $$$$ in the sales process is crazy. When selling something, you are trying to out compete other competing sellers, and if other Sellers are afraid of burning 8 gallons of gas for a "free airplane ride", then you have a built in advantage.
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It isn't about wasting gas, its about wasting time. Maybe its the type of aircraft I'm buying or selling, but like I said: I've never taken a pre-purchase ride, nor have I ever gave one, in 7 buys and 6 sales. And also like I said, I've only been asked once, by a non-serious buyer.
 
tawood said:
It isn't about wasting gas, its about wasting time. Maybe its the type of aircraft I'm buying or selling, but like I said: I've never taken a pre-purchase ride, nor have I ever gave one, in 7 buys and 6 sales. And also like I said, I've only been asked once, by a non-serious buyer.
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Wasting time? When you are trying to sell something? If you're time is that valuable, you need to hire a broker.

If I am going to sell my plane, the biggest time committment would be BS'ing people on the phone, and then driving to my hangar to meet them. Finding they are 20 minutes late because of a soccer game, etc... Then showing up and having to watch them kick tires for 20 minutes, learning ABSOLUTELY nothing about the plane other than the condition of the paint and the interior.

For another 30 minutes invested, go fly around the area, land the plane, have them help push it back in the hangar.

How much time are you willing to invest in selling a $30k-$100k asset?


Have you ever bought a car? Guess what car sales people do? They take people for test drives. It gets them a chance to sell in a confined space for 10 minutes. I would bet 90% of the people test drive new cars. And, guess what, they all drive the same....
 
EminiTrader said:
I agree wholeheartedly. Don't fall in love with it until it's sitting in you're hangar. Be ready to walk away for any reason! I've only walked away from one plane. I paid to transport the plane and inspection. By the time I said "no" (read my earlier posts) I had about 4 or 5 thousand into the bird. That has to be factored in as well as I spent another 5K doing my next pre-buy!!
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You spent $10,000 on two pre-buys, half for an airplane you did not buy, and the other half for one that the seller stated "needs nothing" and was contracted to pay all costs to make it airworthy? It was some of that $10k for upgrades at the time of sale?
 
One of my good friends bought a fairly nice old airplane. No huge costly annuals but he did throw about $7k of interior at it. Now, 10 years into ownership he says his only regret was not putting new radios in when he bought it since he never planned to "move up" or down.
 
JoseCuervo said:
Wasting time? When you are trying to sell something? If you're time is that valuable, you need to hire a broker.

If I am going to sell my plane, the biggest time committment would be BS'ing people on the phone, and then driving to my hangar to meet them. Finding they are 20 minutes late because of a soccer game, etc... Then showing up and having to watch them kick tires for 20 minutes, learning ABSOLUTELY nothing about the plane other than the condition of the paint and the interior.

For another 30 minutes invested, go fly around the area, land the plane, have them help push it back in the hangar.

How much time are you willing to invest in selling a $30k-$100k asset?


Have you ever bought a car? Guess what car sales people do? They take people for test drives. It gets them a chance to sell in a confined space for 10 minutes. I would bet 90% of the people test drive new cars. And, guess what, they all drive the same....
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Back in my car sales days we wouldn't even sit down and talk number unless we test drove the buyer first.
 
tawood said:
Huh? I've owned 7 planes (individually, not all at once) and I've never flight tested a single one before buying. I've sold 6 of the 7, and the new owners never flight tested a single one. Now prebuys? Of course! But a "flight test" to me when I'm selling sounds too much like "free airplane rides" .
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I thought I was the only one! I did fly my 425 with my mechanic as part of the pre-buy, but other than that I have never flown one prior to owning it. :eek:
 
I can't imagine buying an airplane and not flying it first. Flying is what it's all about.

What does the seller expect me to do, tie it down and admire it? I can see that sometimes there might be insurance problems, where the owner doesn't have a medical and no one else is insured in it. I talked to a broker and he said HE had sellers come to him with that situation, and even he had problems finding a solution. But still, I would't buy it without flying it. And it's MY money. I call the shots on that one. Always another airplane somewhere else. There are lots of them. That's what makes it so interesting!
 
When I bought my plane the Seller flew it up here to my home airport just to show it to me, I hadn't even committed to buying it. After he landed he told me to take my wife up in it with my CFI while he waited on the ground a half hour. I guess I was lucky. I thought the plane was a pretty good deal so I told him I would buy it from him when I passed my checkride, which happened to be the airport the plane was based at.

I bought a 1978 172N with 1800hrs TTAF. Everything was fixed up to date, he was a wealthier older gentleman that bought a real fancy 182 and didn't let anything slide on his 172. I paid $41,000 for it if anyone cares.
 
No fly, no buy. Unless it's a seriously budget/no lose deal.

I flew right seat in the 'Pico once we had agreed on the terms of the sale. My wife, a complete aviation virgin, flew in it and the Musketeer we were looking at prior to this one to make sure it had good enough visibility for her and it was the right fit. We spend a minimum of 12 hours a month in that thing, and her comfort is key.


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Our Cherokee 140 was an ugly duckling. In annual, with fresh fuel senders, and many things new under the hood, with 500 hours SMOH by reputable firm. Old single nav/com. Interrior decent enough, but dated. good tires, no apparent corrosion issues, and priced accordingly.
When I got it home, the radio quit transmitting. OK I'd planned to replace it anyway. Removing the seats, to gain better access under the panel, I found the seat tracks. :yikes: The carpet (glued down) had hidden severely corroded seat tracks. Seat tracks in a Cherokee are a structural component, and way expensive compared to Cessna seat tracks. But, That was the only major "gotcha", But several items turned up on the sqawk list, all trivial items, but needed to be addressed. Total cost of parts for the sqawks, (except seat tracks) was about $100.
 
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