US Navy training with Beech T-34 Mentor (Part 2)

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tomdocherty72

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tomdocherty72
Hi All,

I have migrated my question away from the original thread to avoid a running argument between two posters which had completely hijacked my post and lost any possibility of useful discussion and research.

I am hoping to get useful answers from anyone on the forum who either instructed, trained or maintained US Navy and USMC Beech T-34B & C Mentor and Turbo Mentors.

I would like to know:

a) what was it like to learn to fly on?
b) Was it a good aircraft from the instructors point of view?
c) Was it a difficult aircraft (in either version) to maintain and keep serviceable?
d) What other roles has the T-34C filled, other than training?

I would also be grateful for any tales of close calls and near misses involving the T-34 in training.

Finally, I have recently seen a number of photos of T-34C in a dark blue colour scheme, rather than the standard training red/white colours. These aircraft were carrying VMFAT and VFA unti designations. Can anyone explain their use to me. Are they similar in use to the 'squadron hacks' and 'station flight' aircraft I am used to having seen over here in the UK in past decades?

I look forward to some meaningful response to my question (NO fights this time please!)

Thanks guys.:)
 
:yikes:I moved this thread to get away from a running fight between two contributors but did not expect everone else to run away too! Anyone out there have anything to add about flying or fixing the T-34B and C?:confused::rolleyes2:
 
I fly/instruct in the T-34B and it's an absolute joy to operate. Learning to fly the airplane is not difficult, however the one we operate has larger engine (IO-520, 285 hp) than when it was originally built (O-470, 225 hp) so there are special considerations for cooling, etc. Because of this, the performance data listed in the flight manual (we use a NATOPS manual) doesn't jive with the actual performance. Overall, the airplane is very responsive, very maneuverable, very predictable, and really just a lot of fun to fly after a day of teaching in the 172. The biggest complaint I have is that the gear/flap deployment speed is very low (109 KIAS) and the airplane really doesn't like to slow down in a clean configuration. On the upside, it does reinforce good planning and power management technique. One other thing, this airplane is LOUD! I'd be hesitant to take a flight without an ANR headset, but maybe I'm just spoiled.

From an instructional standpoint, the only real downside is that you can't really 'point' to anything in the pilot's cockpit, since you are sitting 4 feet behind them. If you have a competent student up front, it's not a big deal, but it does require the instructor to maintain a good mental image of the front cockpit so they can direct the pilot's actions effectively. We teach commercial students and higher in the aircraft, so most are pretty quick to pick things up.

Maintenance wise, it's pretty much what you would expect from an aircraft built in 1956 and with ~12,000 TTAF. The radios and PTT switches (there is one for interphone AND transmit) can be problematic, but I suspect that's not an issue with every aircraft. The aircraft uses inverters to provide DC power to the electric gyro instruments (no vacuum system), which can also suffer from issues from time to time.

No experience with the C, unfortunately. I imagine it's a blast, just going off of how much fun the B is to fly.
 
OTLK VFR said:
Maintenance wise, it's pretty much what you would expect from an aircraft built in 1956 and with ~12,000 TTAF.
Click to expand...

Try to find a fuel boost pump for one.

went thru that last year --- $3600 used which turned out to be a modified 310 pump with the wrong P/N and pressure switch, so we spent an other 2500 getting it repaired altered so we could use it.

T34s Yuck, you can have them. they are nothing but a funny looking bonanza.
 
I didn't fly the T-34C as a primary student since I came to it from the Air Force as an Instructor Pilot. The aircraft was well suited for Primary instruction. The controls were solid and well balanced. Elevator, aileron and rudder all had trim. It was rugged and fairly easy to fly. It was basically a tandem seat Beech Debonair with a 425 hp turbo prop engine.
The PT6 was easy to run and power resposne was quicker than the T-37 which the USAF used as a primary trainer. The big threebladed prop acted well as a speed brake and you could even go into Beta (reverse) to slow down on landing.

Visibility was pretty good from the front but obviously not as good from the back. The aft seat was the same level as the front (unlike a T-38 which was raised) so a student with a huge cranium filled up the front windscreen. you could raise the rear seat, but that could put you uncomfortably close to the canopy. Had a Flight Surgeon bounce my head off the canopy twice in one aggressive spin recovery. Still, the view from the back wasn't bad, you just had to keep your head moving. Clearing turns weren't just required, they were a matter of survival and even then weren't enough sometimes. One time, I came out of a spin over Oyster Bay only to find a four ship of Blue Angels in my area coming right at me.

Being separated from the students did require a good knowledge of the differences between front and aft cockpit. It also made explaining how to do a point to point off the RMI very challenging. On FAM-1, you had to do a very thourough cockpit checkout and do several inflight front cockpit specific tasks. The manual gear down crank was located only in the front for instance. One task was to pull the normal gear control circuit breakers and have the students manually crank the gear down by engaging the handle clutch and applying "approximately 30" rotations to the handle. A pretty fair amount of effort was needed. I actually had to incomplete a ride and send a student to the gym for a week because she didn't have the strength/stamina to complete the task. Since the handle was located in close proximity to the place the students stowed their O2 masks, you had to be very specific and deliberate about disengageing the clutch and clearing the handle before raising the gear. A friend of mine had the front seat radio control panel beat to hell when his student raised the gear
handle while the manual handle was still engaged and it grabbed the mask and flailed around "approximately 30 revolutions" in the 1 second of so it took the gear to come up electrically. Successful NORDO recovery and lesson learned.

The aircraft had a good air conditioner A requirement when doing a lot of low altitude work over LA (Lower Alabama) in July. Made the mistake of taking one with a broken AC one time. After a bunch of Acro and spins, the student was feeling "woozy". I took control, told him to open the canopy and have a sip of water. He took a big gulp and promptly chucked it back up so that the wind blew it all over the cockpit, (including me). Lesson learned. Only took a bad airconditioner one other time. Was the Runway Duty Officer at Silverhill out lying field. My shift was over and I was to complete a FAM-3 on the way back with my student when we had smoke and flames coming from the AC panel during start up. After taking control and sending off a call to the firefightng crew I shut down and expeditiously abandonded the aircraft only to find the student still in the front seat. Climbed up. dragged him out watched the firefighters arrive within seconds. Maintennance determined that the AC fan rheostat had burned up and that it was ok to fly as long as we left the AC off. Ops wanted me to complete the sortie and I told them no way. BTDT. I would bring it straight back with the canopy open. I was comfortable
with this since I had all my students fly with the canopy open on FAM-1 during the High Altitude Power Loss demo. Didn't think anything of it until I pushed the power up for takeoff. Those three big foot wide prop blades made one hell of propwash till I got up to speed. It felt like somebody was standing on the wing hitting me in the helmet with a baseball bat
every time a blade went by. Lesson learned. The heater was good but the back cockpit stayed warmer with the defrost on high so the heat just rolled back along the canopy. This tended to put a lot of hot air in the face of the guy in front, but rank has it's privledges.

Navigation equipment consisted of a TACAN with DME, a VOR, a course deviation indicator and a Radio Magnetic Indicator with bearing needles. Teaching while being in different cockpits with the student under the hood was challenging, but a thourough brief went a log way to making it better. Since there was no ILS on board, you were at the mercy of the PARs
available to you for precision approaches. This could be very challenging if there were student controllers involved. The airplane was pretty stable and presented no great challengs for instrument work. Other than the normal nausea induced while working under the bag in the summertime over LA. There was a GPS integrated into the Naval Aircraft Collision Warning Systen (NACWS). It was basically a poor mans TCAS. One page would give you the GPS lat and long coordinates. Not much use for
navigation unless your 60 miles out over the Gulf of Mexico at 750 MSL on a Search and Resuce mission. That's a long story and involves one of the dumber things I've ever done in a SEL aircraft.

Formation was easy but I had come from being an IP in the B-52 so my perception might be skewed. Control and throttle response were quick and predictable and there were no surprises there. A stable platform to fly off of when you had a good lead. Aerobatics in formation were A LOT of fun as well as the low level visual nav legs.

Spins and acro were a lot of fun. The T-34C was limited per the NATOPS to 4.5 Gs positive but the airframe was way more rugged and you really don't need anymore Gs for basic maneuvers. A friend of mine pulled over 9 Gs after gettig dumped out the bottom of an embedded thunderstorm. Stalls were also straight forward with characteristcs similar to or better than the Bonanza types I've flown. Normal upright spins from any approach were predictable and easily recoverable. We did basic
aerobatics, loops,aileron rolls, barrel rolls, split s, spins and even clover leafs from the Air Force guys. Fam-8 was the end of phase checkride scheduled for 2 hours. It usually only took an hour and a half. When finished with the check, the IP asked the student if he minded the IP doing some more aerobatics. If the student wanted an "above average", he should say go ahead. This bit a friend of mine when he finished up a clover leaf which is only a 2 g maneuver but a long 2 G maneuver only
to find the student in the front totaly Ged out.

In general, a very pleasant and fun plane to fly. If I win the lottery, I might be tempted to by a C model but update the
avionics.
 
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That right there was a great report.

And, a lot of lessons learned.
 
Front seat time only in the 34-B. Very well harmonized but I was too saturatated to pay any attention. Great ship for basic aerobatics. :)
 
bbchien said:
Front seat time only in the 34-B. Very well harmonized but I was too saturatated to pay any attention. Great ship for basic aerobatics. :)
Click to expand...

Aaaaa well only the A modles were acro certified, the Bs never were, and now the wings are fall off the As See the AD. the cheapest fix is well over 30k to get to fly it again. and the Bs are included.
 
We had A-s too but my acro was +G in the -B, and just try not to vomit in the As. :(

I had a nick name but we will not go there.
 
Thanks to all who sent me information on the B&C. I now have a great deal of information to help witn my planned article. I will post something here when I know where and when it will come out (as long as the moderators will allow it!).

Thanks guys!

Yours aye

Tom
 
tomdocherty72 said:
Thanks to all who sent me information on the B&C. I now have a great deal of information to help witn my planned article. I will post something here when I know where and when it will come out (as long as the moderators will allow it!).

Thanks guys!

Yours aye

Tom
Click to expand...

You can be comfortable that the Mods will allow it.

Keep us posted!
 
Hi Guys,

It has taken a while but I have finally had my article about the Beech T-34 in US Navy/Marines service accepted by a UK based magazine - Aeroplane- No publication date yet but I will let you know. It has a working title of 'Teaching a Navy to fly'.

Thanks for all the help.

Yours aye

Tom
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I have around 350 hours in a " Civilian " T - 34 . [ Bungees on the controls. ] Air Force Flying Club . It has teriffic visibility . It has a battery - drain - jar and can do some aerobatics . [ 10 Gs plus and 4.5 Gs negative . ] 3 - Way Trim ; REAL trim tabs . Beautiful flying aircraft . Actually used it to let a West Point Sky Diver jump up at Orange Mass. !
With the gear down , and some flaps , you can point it straight down
to get down to pattern altitude , without it picking - up speed .
When trimmed - up you cal fly it with just a finger - tip . Nice stable
instrument platform . Side and main panel designed for easy transition to the T - 33 ; ( at least in the AF version . )

David [ Trail Name : " Ice Cream " on the AT ] :yes:
 
tomdocherty72 said:
Finally, I have recently seen a number of photos of T-34C in a dark blue colour scheme, rather than the standard training red/white colours. These aircraft were carrying VMFAT and VFA unti designations. Can anyone explain their use to me. Are they similar in use to the 'squadron hacks' and 'station flight' aircraft I am used to having seen over here in the UK in past decades?
Click to expand...

Thread is old, but...

They're low safes so students in the Hornet don't plow into the ground.
 
David V. Webber said:
I have around 350 hours in a " Civilian " T - 34 . [ Bungees on the controls. ] Air Force Flying Club . It has teriffic visibility . It has a battery - drain - jar and can do some aerobatics . [ 10 Gs plus and 4.5 Gs negative . ] 3 - Way Trim ; REAL trim tabs . Beautiful flying aircraft . Actually used it to let a West Point Sky Diver jump up at Orange Mass. !
With the gear down , and some flaps , you can point it straight down
to get down to pattern altitude , without it picking - up speed .
When trimmed - up you cal fly it with just a finger - tip . Nice stable
instrument platform . Side and main panel designed for easy transition to the T - 33 ; ( at least in the AF version . )

David [ Trail Name : " Ice Cream " on the AT ] :yes:
Click to expand...

Thanks for the Pirep, and welcome to PoA!
 
Do not snap roll a T-34. Your vertical stabilizer will thank you for it.
Just saying, is all.
 
Shepherd said:
Do not snap roll a T-34. Your vertical stabilizer will thank you for it.
Just saying, is all.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I read somewhere that a snap roll is a stalled maneuver.

1 is this correct
2 regardless of T/F above, the vertical stab takes excess load beyond structural limits?
 
Jaybird180 said:
Interesting. I read somewhere that a snap roll is a stalled maneuver.

1 is this correct
2 regardless of T/F above, the vertical stab takes excess load beyond structural limits?
Click to expand...

I love the T-34. I wish I owned one.
Many, many years ago, in the days of my misspent youth, I managed to do some damage to the vertical stabilizer on a CAP owned T-34 by doing a series of violent snap-rolls.
Not my finest hour.
 
While you spent your youth breaking tails, I spent mine in a classroom, you bad, bad boy (sarcasm/)
 
Jaybird180 said:
Interesting. I read somewhere that a snap roll is a stalled maneuver.

1 is this correct
2 regardless of T/F above, the vertical stab takes excess load beyond structural limits?
Click to expand...

A snap roll is, essentially, an accelerated spin.
Acceleration and rotation rates are very high and can stress several areas of the airframe due to inertial and/or aerodynamic loading. The tail really gets whipped around.
 
The T-34, SF260 and other such aircraft are more suited to gentlemanly aerobatics. I'd leave snap rolls and such to Extras, Edge, and MX2 type airplanes
 
Their fun to fly Isat in the back seat as a CFI for years for short training flights, not so much fun on long trips the seat only goes up and down not much adjustment. Most of the parts are the same as Bonanza 35 parts some are D45 only. The Military 0-470-9 engines are old and hard to find parts for try talking to Teledyne Continental about a fuel Inj 0-470-9 most will say "what". The Prob is a Beachcraft prop and some parts are not available for it. Corrosion on Magnesium flight control is a problem. The wing problem AMOC with cable or strap that adds weight to a plane that already has weight problems or Barron fix cost $$$.If you need a elecrtic boos pump like tom says $$$. The T-34A/B used to be a great warbird prices have slipped a lot over the top price The C model is a whole different plane and I do not believe it is covered under the D-45 Civilian version TCDS.
 
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