Upgrades and learning the GTN 750/650?

Volitation

Volitation

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Volitation
Going in about 10 days for what started as the ADSB upgrades, decided to go all in and do the whole thing..... here’s what’s there now:
upload_2018-10-24_20-0-59.jpeg

Will pull the KMD 150, GNS430, KX 165, and the GTX 327, and the music junk. Go back with GTN 750/650, GTX 345 (probably remote). May or may not be able to save existing GPS antenna.

Evidently have to examine Nav indicator compatibility, may have to look at going ahead with a G5. And then, some day, ultimately, the ever elusive GFC 500 (if ever approved. )

Any gotchas I need to be looking for?
Any advantage to the panel mounted 345?
And any recommendations on learning the 750/650? I’m studying the manuals now , is the simulator program any good?

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Work in progress
 

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There's an Ipad app for the 650. Really good at helping to understand the buttonology.
 
If you're flying a 182 or better, get the GTN-750. Resale is much higher with a 750 over a 650. Makes flying through the soup much safer with the added content.
 
NordicDave said:
If you're flying a 182 or better, get the GTN-750. Resale is much higher with a 750 over a 650. Makes flying through the soup much safer with the added content.
Click to expand...

I agree, and my post wasn’t clear. It will be a 750 and 650.
 
get the simulator, it's free and should help u quite a bit with buttonology.
 
The iPad simulator works great. Consider a Flightstream 510 for the GTN. Transferring flight plans from an Garmin Pilot or Foreflight is a great timesaver.
 
Garmin's iPad app is really good. That being said the unit is so much more intuitive than the 430/530 and once you start flying with it the buttonology won't be challenging. Grab a safety pilot that can fly while you push the buttons the first time and after that you'll be fairly comfortable and love it!
 
Definitely get the FlightStream 510. Database updates via tablet is far better than any other method for doing them.

The iPad simulator plus a manual is a good way to go for learning the GTNs. Plan and execute plenty of fake fantasy flights (or real ones you're going to do, for that matter) in the sim. Hint: In the simulator app, you can change the time scale from 1x to 2x, 5x, 10x, 20x if you want to simulate longer flights, and you can change your position, vertical speed, etc as well.
 
Thanks for all the responses.

The FlightStream 510 looks like a real timesaver! I’m currently using ForeFlight, any thoughts on staying with FF vs. switching over to Garmin Pilot? Does GP make updating easier?
 
Volitation said:
Thanks for all the responses.

The FlightStream 510 looks like a real timesaver! I’m currently using ForeFlight, any thoughts on staying with FF vs. switching over to Garmin Pilot? Does GP make updating easier?
Click to expand...

Database updates have to be done through GP. Everything else, you can do in ForeFlight - So that's exactly what I do.
 
That will be an extraordinarily nice setup. I couldn't justify a 750 and 650 so I just got the 650 and left a legacy navcom (KX-155) in the panel, ultimately to be replaced with a GNC-255.

Generally I suggest the 345 with a 650, vs. a 345R with 750. The screen real estate on the 650 is small enough as it is. That said I still leave my "remote" transponder field up on it anyway, so I'm not practicing what I preach. Maybe one of these days I'll get around to reconfiguring the unit.

With a FlightStream 510 and an iPad you're going to find you won't need the actual screen of the unit that much. I control my 650 via Garmin Pilot and Foreflight. That includes flight plan transfer and route editing while I'm flying. If I get a re-route I just type the string into ForeFlight or GP and "send to panel." This then syncs everything else in the plane talking to the 650, including the other iPad. This is another reason why I went with the 650.

If you're comfortable with the ability to control the transponder tied to the health of the 750, there's no downside to the remote. Not a huge deal, and yes it is subjective, but I sort of like having the separate interface for the transponder. It also comes down to how much panel space you have. I could certainly see all sorts of different variants to this. And would I remote an audio panel to the 750 to save panel space? Absolutely. But these were installation extras that I couldn't justify when I did my big upgrade in '16. I just did the 650, GTX345 and a G5 ADI. This winter I'm planning to drop a G5 HSI in as well.

As nice as a 750 + 650 setup is do you really need a second GPS Navigator? I briefly considered dual 650s. It's a great setup if money is no object, but it's a hell of a lot of dough to plow into the panel to back up a GTN. If money isn't a determining factor, then by all means, it would be very nice indeed.

Congrats to you for going with Garmin. Although I am occasionally accused of being a "fanboy," what I'm truly a fan of is making smart business decisions when it comes to aviation tech purchases. If you're going to put that much money into a panel, make it a good investment and buy the market leading products. When people decide to go boutiquey and put off-brand stuff in that's not designed to talk to each other, it often contributes to a less than optimal result both in terms of how well the panel performs, how future-proof it is, and the residual value of an aircraft. 9 times out of 10 a top end Garmin panel is going to lead to a faster sale than the other brands. I also learned my lesson the hard way when I first updated my panel in '01, and decided to go with an all-King panel instead of Garmin. That turned out to be a very bad decision.

Although I also have and use ForeFlight, I do find myself using GP quite a bit in my own airplane - because it looks and feels exactly like the GTN. You might find the same to be true for you. Your iPad will feel, look, and act like an extension of the panel with the FS510. ForeFlight works great too, don't get me wrong, but it's not visually similar.

The Garmin GTN simulator is pretty good for learning the box. An actual course or two might also help. I found the 650 to be extraordinarily intuitive, but I still learned a lot of new stuff when I went to OSH in '17 and sat in on a couple of free Garmin GTN seminars.

Good luck,
 
Have you considered a 750 and a GNC255 nav/com instead of the 650?
 
Ryan F. said:
That will be an extraordinarily nice setup. I couldn't justify a 750 and 650 so I just got the 650 and left a legacy navcom (KX-155) in the panel, ultimately to be replaced with a GNC-255.

Generally I suggest the 345 with a 650, vs. a 345R with 750. The screen real estate on the 650 is small enough as it is. That said I still leave my "remote" transponder field up on it anyway, so I'm not practicing what I preach. Maybe one of these days I'll get around to reconfiguring the unit.

With a FlightStream 510 and an iPad you're going to find you won't need the actual screen of the unit that much. I control my 650 via Garmin Pilot and Foreflight. That includes flight plan transfer and route editing while I'm flying. If I get a re-route I just type the string into ForeFlight or GP and "send to panel." This then syncs everything else in the plane talking to the 650, including the other iPad. This is another reason why I went with the 650.

If you're comfortable with the ability to control the transponder tied to the health of the 750, there's no downside to the remote. Not a huge deal, and yes it is subjective, but I sort of like having the separate interface for the transponder. It also comes down to how much panel space you have. I could certainly see all sorts of different variants to this. And would I remote an audio panel to the 750 to save panel space? Absolutely. But these were installation extras that I couldn't justify when I did my big upgrade in '16. I just did the 650, GTX345 and a G5 ADI. This winter I'm planning to drop a G5 HSI in as well.

As nice as a 750 + 650 setup is do you really need a second GPS Navigator? I briefly considered dual 650s. It's a great setup if money is no object, but it's a hell of a lot of dough to plow into the panel to back up a GTN. If money isn't a determining factor, then by all means, it would be very nice indeed.

Congrats to you for going with Garmin. Although I am occasionally accused of being a "fanboy," what I'm truly a fan of is making smart business decisions when it comes to aviation tech purchases. If you're going to put that much money into a panel, make it a good investment and buy the market leading products. When people decide to go boutiquey and put off-brand stuff in that's not designed to talk to each other, it often contributes to a less than optimal result both in terms of how well the panel performs, how future-proof it is, and the residual value of an aircraft. 9 times out of 10 a top end Garmin panel is going to lead to a faster sale than the other brands. I also learned my lesson the hard way when I first updated my panel in '01, and decided to go with an all-King panel instead of Garmin. That turned out to be a very bad decision.

Although I also have and use ForeFlight, I do find myself using GP quite a bit in my own airplane - because it looks and feels exactly like the GTN. You might find the same to be true for you. Your iPad will feel, look, and act like an extension of the panel with the FS510. ForeFlight works great too, don't get me wrong, but it's not visually similar.

The Garmin GTN simulator is pretty good for learning the box. An actual course or two might also help. I found the 650 to be extraordinarily intuitive, but I still learned a lot of new stuff when I went to OSH in '17 and sat in on a couple of free Garmin GTN seminars.

Good luck,
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input! I hadn’t thought about the remote transponder interface if the 750 goes down , but I had considered it might be nice to be able to control the transponder independent of what’s on the screen. I think there will be enough space to go either way, have to think about that one.

I do agree with your point about buying the market leader. Wasting money is foolish, but chances are this is the only plane I’ll ever own, and I want to get it the way I want it, and to do it right.

Are you getting rid of all vacuum?
 
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DesertNomad said:
Have you considered a 750 and a GNC255 nav/com instead of the 650?
Click to expand...

I haven’t thought about that, but it’s worth considering. I think I want the 2nd GPS, but it IS overkill.

It’s coming out of annual today (at least that went well!) and I’m taking to the avionics shop tomorrow. They’re going to open it up, remove the old stuff, and then we’ll be able physically see the space and make the final decisions.
 
Volitation said:
I do agree with your point about buying the market leader. Wasting money is foolish, but chances are this is the only plane I’ll ever own, and I want to get it the way I want it, and to do it right.
Click to expand...

I hear you. At various points in life you have to throw up your hands, forget the financial hit and just buy what you want. It's not the way to run a business, but you only live once and if you work hard, you should be able to spend your money on what makes you happy.

Are you getting rid of all vacuum?
Click to expand...

That won't happen until my Century III autopilot gets attitude information from some source other than the legacy vacuum ADI. I hear rumors Garmin is working on a converter and attitude pickoff from the G5 ADI. That would be great. OR... I'll take a GFC500 autopilot... if they ever certify it for the PA-30. And I'm thinking the odds of that are getting rather slim.

But yeah, right now the only thing I'm using vacuum for is the DG and "backup" AI to drive the autopilot. The DG will be gone when the HSI goes in. So as soon as there's a way to feed the autopilot data from the G5, the vacuum is coming out. I look forward to that day.
 
Ryan F. said:
I hear you. At various points in life you have to throw up your hands, forget the financial hit and just buy what you want. It's not the way to run a business, but you only live once and if you work hard, you should be able to spend your money on what makes you happy.



That won't happen until my Century III autopilot gets attitude information from some source other than the legacy vacuum ADI. I hear rumors Garmin is working on a converter and attitude pickoff from the G5 ADI. That would be great. OR... I'll take a GFC500 autopilot... if they ever certify it for the PA-30. And I'm thinking the odds of that are getting rather slim.

But yeah, right now the only thing I'm using vacuum for is the DG and "backup" AI to drive the autopilot. The DG will be gone when the HSI goes in. So as soon as there's a way to feed the autopilot data from the G5, the vacuum is coming out. I look forward to that day.
Click to expand...

Want to bet a nickel on which comes first - the PA-30 or the 182 RG?:rolleyes:o
 
The lack of screen size of the GTN 650 is not an issue if you have a Flightstream and a iPad, the iPad has all the screen space you need, you can modify your flight plan, monitor traffic, check weather, etc all from iPad. I end up only touching the 650 to select approach procedure or changing frequencies.
 
Volitation said:
Going in about 10 days for what started as the ADSB upgrades, decided to go all in and do the whole thing.....
Click to expand...
We did the same thing. I started out with a minimalist approach to ADS-B but decided that we might as well replace the old transponder while we were upgrading, then might as well do ADS-B in traffic / weather displayed on the panel while we were at it, then decided we might as well tear out the old avionics we did not use, then might as well replace the non-WAAS 430 while they had everything open. The “might as well” gets you every time. We went the Avidyne route though. Good luck with the install. I hope everything goes smooth for you. We go to the avionics shop in about 3 weeks.
 
teejayevans said:
The lack of screen size of the GTN 650 is not an issue if you have a Flightstream and a iPad, the iPad has all the screen space you need, you can modify your flight plan, monitor traffic, check weather, etc all from iPad. I end up only touching the 650 to select approach procedure or changing frequencies.
Click to expand...

Yep. I think a lot of owners realize this AFTER installation (including me.)

Frankly I hardly even use the physical hardware of the 650 itself... I just do what you do, change frequencies and load approaches. For everything else I just look at the iPad. It's a much bigger screen than even the 750.
 
Ryan F. said:
I'll take a GFC500 autopilot... if they ever certify it for the PA-30. And I'm thinking the odds of that are getting rather slim.
Click to expand...

Volitation said:
Want to bet a nickel on which comes first - the PA-30 or the 182 RG?:rolleyes:o
Click to expand...

I'll bet a lot more than a nickel, since the 182RG (Ahem, R182) is now on the list to be started in the next 12 months.

And @Ryan F. , the PA30 isn't on the list yet, but at least the PA24 is. Give it a couple of years I guess! Unfortunately, they don't have any twins on the GFC500 list at all, all the twins are on the GFC600 list. Unfortunately, the total value of a PA30 is probably too low to justify putting in a GFC 600. We'll see what they do. Hopefully there's enough PA30s that might want to do the 500 to justify it for them.

GFC 500 type list: https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/604257#additional
GFC 600 type list: https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/604258#additional
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I'll bet a lot more than a nickel, since the 182RG (Ahem, R182) is now on the list to be started in the next 12 months.

And @Ryan F. , the PA30 isn't on the list yet, but at least the PA24 is. Give it a couple of years I guess! Unfortunately, they don't have any twins on the GFC500 list at all, all the twins are on the GFC600 list. Unfortunately, the total value of a PA30 is probably too low to justify putting in a GFC 600. We'll see what they do. Hopefully there's enough PA30s that might want to do the 500 to justify it for them.

GFC 500 type list: https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/604257#additional
GFC 600 type list: https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/604258#additional
Click to expand...

Agree... my hopes were dashed somewhat when Garmin added the small "expect more single engine piston airplanes in the future" note to the AML page. In other words, they seem to be stratifying the 500 and 600, at least partially, by number of engines -- in addition to other criteria of course.

However, my twin is tiny. I certainly understand a Baron being a better fit for the GFC600, but my dinky little TwinCo? It has the same MGTOW of a Cirrus.

I'm not in a big rush. I'll wait around and see what happens. In the meantime my old UNIVAC powered autopilot still works.
 
The flight school’s PA28-140 has a 650 in it, like it a lot. It does have weather and traffic on it and both been very accurate from my experiences with it. Easier to use than the 430.

 
One of my clubs has a 152 with a 650 in it. It's one of the planes that AOPA had refurbished.
 
Well....in my 95 Commander 114B here is my installation (hopefully to be picked up next week):

GTN 750
GTX 345 ADSB TXP
GMA 350C 4 PLACE
GNC 255 NAV COM
FLIGHTSTREAM 510
ASPEN 1000 PRO
EA100 AUTOPILOT ADAPTER
APS44 ALT PRESELECT
ALT PRESLT ARM SWITCH
GI 106B #2 CDI

This has been a 8 week installation. The Aspen was chosen as the best choice to go with my KFC200 AP.

Hopefully, this will all go well and no regrets on my part.

IMG_20181108_140255189_zpska7glpjt.jpg
 
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Aps4a approved for your aircraft? Or you going for field approval?

Should be a nice panel. I have many hours behind an Aspen and a GTN and they play together nicely. You opt for SVT and AOA or go without?
 
Two weeks into my new panel...

GTN 750
GTX 345 ADSB TXP
GMA 350C 4 PLACE
GNC 255 NAV COM
FLIGHTSTREAM 510
ASPEN 1000 PRO
EA100 AUTOPILOT ADAPTER
APS44 ALT PRESELECT
ALT PRESLT ARM SWITCH
GI 106B #2 CDI

All of the above with a King KFC200 AP....

and I love it! Have flown RNAV and ILS approaches with it and have had no issues. No STARS or SIDS yet, but that will come with a trip to Dallas later this month.

Altitude pre-select works fine, but you do have to fly the airplane manually to intercept the pre-selected altitudes. Not fully automatic, but takes some load off.

This is a real good single pilot IFR platform. Especially in a busy Class B airspace (I fly regularly in Dallas and Houston Class B's). In fact, I can actually see how this setup can erode your IMC flying skills. I plan on forcing myself to fly at least half of my approaches by hand. This is just too easy.
 
Stephen Shore said:
Two weeks into my new panel...

GTN 750
GTX 345 ADSB TXP
GMA 350C 4 PLACE
GNC 255 NAV COM
FLIGHTSTREAM 510
ASPEN 1000 PRO
EA100 AUTOPILOT ADAPTER
APS44 ALT PRESELECT
ALT PRESLT ARM SWITCH
GI 106B #2 CDI

All of the above with a King KFC200 AP....
Click to expand...

Nice! I have a lot of the same gear. Love it.

Altitude pre-select works fine, but you do have to fly the airplane manually to intercept the pre-selected altitudes. Not fully automatic, but takes some load off.
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that the KFC200 had the same capabilities as my KFC150, and worked similarly. When I first engage the FD/AP, the pitch axis is in pitch hold mode so it'll keep climbing at whatever pitch angle I had set, which can then be adjusted with the down/up rocker. My preselect (King KAS-297B) has the VS mode incorporated in it as well, while it looks like the KAS-297 that can go with the KFC200 does not.

In looking at the KFC200 manual, it looks like it does in fact behave the same as my KFC150 and engages pitch hold mode when you enable it, so you shouldn't have to fly the pitch manually - Just control it with the DN/UP rocker, and with the preselect armed, it should intercept the selected altitude on its own. If not, I would talk to your installer about it. (And please report back!)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Nice! I have a lot of the same gear. Love it.



I was under the impression that the KFC200 had the same capabilities as my KFC150, and worked similarly. When I first engage the FD/AP, the pitch axis is in pitch hold mode so it'll keep climbing at whatever pitch angle I had set, which can then be adjusted with the down/up rocker. My preselect (King KAS-297B) has the VS mode incorporated in it as well, while it looks like the KAS-297 that can go with the KFC200 does not.

In looking at the KFC200 manual, it looks like it does in fact behave the same as my KFC150 and engages pitch hold mode when you enable it, so you shouldn't have to fly the pitch manually - Just control it with the DN/UP rocker, and with the preselect armed, it should intercept the selected altitude on its own. If not, I would talk to your installer about it. (And please report back!)
Click to expand...

You are correct in regard to the KFC200 and the interaction with the Aspen altitude pre-select feature. My mistake was that when I ordered this "add-on" I was under the impression that the AP would simply fly to the pre-selected altitude without any need for any input on the trim switch on the rocker panel. My mistake. However, after a couple of flights, I do like the Aspen altitude pre-select and am glad that I purchased it.
 
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