(UPDATE-BOUGHT A PLANE)Airplane NEWB - May need a plane for business,help me find the best option

My 2 cents (worth nothing)... Buy a clean 182, get your private/IR/etc knocked out, then see where your wants are. The 182 will appreciate unless you bend it and it meets all your reqs minus 2 seats and 30kts. If you end up wanting more, then throw it up on TAP and go buy your Bonanza or whatever.
 
ktup-flyer said:
My 2 cents (worth nothing)... Buy a clean 182, get your private/IR/etc knocked out, then see where your wants are. The 182 will appreciate unless you bend it and it meets all your reqs minus 2 seats and 30kts. If you end up wanting more, then throw it up on TAP and go buy your Bonanza or whatever.
Click to expand...
This is pretty good advice, not just for the OP but for everyone's first plane.
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
Loving all the replies! I'll see about getting the 180 guys number, I know him through my boss and didnt get his number the other day.

Lets change this up a little.. Lets assume my kids do not care for flying and the wife and kids would rather road trip in a car, which I also love, and the only thing it will be used for is myself to fly to meetings and for personal enjoyment and I dont need anything more than 2 seats and a place to put a bag... What is the for lack of a better word sexiest/sportiest most fun aircraft if interior space does not matter? Also in the same 100k or less price range and being used for same business purpose and distance etc as discussed earlier?
Click to expand...

You need a plane built in Texas! Get a Mooney, "We love to fly. Fast." We are easy to recognize by the sleek lines of the fuselage, the long smooth wings, the fast look on the ground and our smiles leaving the gas pumps. Oh, our vertical stabilizers are put on right, too! :cool:

Popular entry planes are M20-C and M20-E; M20-F has a little more interior space (but the front seats are identical); M20-J is an F with aerodynamic cleanup and the efficiency king of certified GA.

I have a C, and get ~147 KTAS on 9 gallons per hour, call it high teens in miles per gallon. At 170 mph . . . . :)

P.S.--it was my first plane, bought 5 weeks after my checkride. See my earlier post about insurance costs.
 
Hank S said:
You need a plane built in Texas! Get a Mooney, "We love to fly. Fast." We are easy to recognize by the sleek lines of the fuselage, the long smooth wings, the fast look on the ground and our smiles leaving the gas pumps. Oh, our vertical stabilizers are put on right, too! :cool:

Popular entry planes are M20-C and M20-E; M20-F has a little more interior space (but the front seats are identical); M20-J is an F with aerodynamic cleanup and the efficiency king of certified GA.

I have a C, and get ~147 KTAS on 9 gallons per hour, call it high teens in miles per gallon. At 170 mph . . . . :)

P.S.--it was my first plane, bought 5 weeks after my checkride. See my earlier post about insurance costs.
Click to expand...
Do they make a lift kit for the Mooney for when he builds his grass/dirt runway?
 
ktup-flyer said:
Do they make a lift kit for the Mooney for when he builds his grass/dirt runway?
Click to expand...

I know several with C and E models who live at grass fields.

Go to youtube and look up piperpainter when you have a minute. While I do go to grass strips in mine, I'd rather not take my Mooney where he takes his . . . .
 
Hank S said:
I know several with C and E models who live at grass fields.

Go to youtube and look up piperpainter when you have a minute. While I do go to grass strips in mine, I'd rather not take my Mooney where he takes his . . . .
Click to expand...
I've seen him. Just stereotyping lol.

Mooneys keep the grass mowed at Oshkosh
 
Two points:
This is just as anecdotal as everyone else’s point of view but I have been flying myself for work meetings for about 10 years in a piston single (around 100 hours or 20 trips per year) and I have NEVER, not once had to cancel, arrive late, or extend a trip for flying reasons. The same can not be said of my colleagues relying on the airlines. But I maintain my airplane meticulously and it is a fairly new model.

It sounds like in your business you may not have much downside to showing up in a plane for a client meeting but I’d argue you gain nothing either. My rule of thumb - if the people I’m meeting are paying me (clients, customers, etc) they will NOT know that I flew myself and have a plane. I’ll let them think I flew southwest or drove. If I’m the one bringing the money (ie looking to buy a business) yeah, then come pick me up at signature FBO.
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
Loving all the replies! I'll see about getting the 180 guys number, I know him through my boss and didnt get his number the other day.

Lets change this up a little.. Lets assume my kids do not care for flying and the wife and kids would rather road trip in a car, which I also love, and the only thing it will be used for is myself to fly to meetings and for personal enjoyment and I dont need anything more than 2 seats and a place to put a bag... What is the for lack of a better word sexiest/sportiest most fun aircraft if interior space does not matter? Also in the same 100k or less price range and being used for same business purpose and distance etc as discussed earlier?
Click to expand...

That’s easy. Here you go:
https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/26992955/1975-aero-l-39c-albatros
 
Alright fellas, here is an update. The plane thing we where all talking about kind of faded into the background and didnt happen.

Heres the new situation: Talked to CPA this morning for a good while brainstorming what to do with this years taxes. I'm going to dot my i's and cross my t's yet but it looks to be a very good possibility that we will be buying a plane for tax purposes and it making sense for what we are wanting to do with my job etc.

New budget $125,000 - $150,000 for tax reasons I do not want to go lower, may go higher if there is a certain threshold where it makes sense to spend over the $150,000 for what you get.

So anyone have a new set of suggestions for this price range? 4 or 6 seat size, single or twin engine, turbo or not, this time I'm not as picky. Also if anyone has financing companies they recommend I'm all ears, but I will be contacting Airfleet and Dorr I believe.
 
Late getting to this thread. As a 182 flyer I’m partial to the 182. Not the fastest girl in the bunch. But traveling the way the birds go is always going to be faster then driving. Plus it would be good to train in for awhile. Once you get more proficient and get some hours unde the belt you can upgrade to something faster in a few years. Is definitely a hauler though.
One consideration I don’t think that has been brought up is do you have any issues what so ever medically that will cause delays in getting your medical ie: DUI’s, goofy psych dx or on some odd meds. Take a gander at the medical forum and this can cause some huuge delays.

I think it’s great what you are doing. I always try to think of a way I can solve a problem with the plane much to my wife’s chagrin. Have a friend the flies up and down the east coast speaking for business, has a fast mu2 that his business owns and tax wise works out. Able to make bank doing talks but can also use to go just about anywhere on the east coast with ease. He loves to fly and makes it work!!
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
So.. I need something fast enough to greatly speed up traveling an average of 65mph on the road for a minimum of 200 miles and on up toward 500 miles. Then the big factor in being able to justify it is operating cost. I think being around or below $200 per hour is still reasonable for my purposes. I am married and we have 2 kids and plan to have more in the future so a 6 seater is also very tempting and further tempting yet is a twin engine, but I fear the operating costs would make the $200 per hour near impossible for a twin, correct me if I'm wrong please.

Now the big question, price range.. It would be financed, and I'm thinking around the $100,000 range or less, possibly more if that brings into the equation the obvious option for my criteria.
Click to expand...

To me, the speed requirement puts you in the 150+ knot club. The operating costs lead to a normally aspirated single. The desire for 6 seats, combined with speed, says PA32R (Lance/Saratoga) or A36 Bonanza. Prepare for a big insurance bill the first year, and if you don't have your instrument rating by the end of that year, it won't go down as much as it otherwise would.

Jared Kornelsen said:
Lets change this up a little.. Lets assume my kids do not care for flying and the wife and kids would rather road trip in a car, which I also love, and the only thing it will be used for is myself to fly to meetings and for personal enjoyment and I dont need anything more than 2 seats and a place to put a bag... What is the for lack of a better word sexiest/sportiest most fun aircraft if interior space does not matter? Also in the same 100k or less price range and being used for same business purpose and distance etc as discussed earlier?
Click to expand...

You could go with an experimental of some variety, but to me this says Mooney all over it. For the $100K budget you're probably looking at an M20E or F, or you might find an M20J if you're lucky. The J's are highly sought after because they're about as efficient as it gets in a fast, certified airplane: ~160 knots on ~10 gallons per hour. I have an M20R Ovation, and I do 170-175 knots on 12 gph.

Jared Kornelsen said:
Heres the new situation: Talked to CPA this morning for a good while brainstorming what to do with this years taxes. I'm going to dot my i's and cross my t's yet but it looks to be a very good possibility that we will be buying a plane for tax purposes and it making sense for what we are wanting to do with my job etc.

New budget $125,000 - $150,000 for tax reasons I do not want to go lower, may go higher if there is a certain threshold where it makes sense to spend over the $150,000 for what you get.

So anyone have a new set of suggestions for this price range? 4 or 6 seat size, single or twin engine, turbo or not, this time I'm not as picky. Also if anyone has financing companies they recommend I'm all ears, but I will be contacting Airfleet and Dorr I believe.
Click to expand...

I'm still going to say A36 or Mooney (depending on whether you want those last two seats). It's just that now you can get a nicer one. :)
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
Alright fellas, here is an update. The plane thing we where all talking about kind of faded into the background and didnt happen.

Heres the new situation: Talked to CPA this morning for a good while brainstorming what to do with this years taxes. I'm going to dot my i's and cross my t's yet but it looks to be a very good possibility that we will be buying a plane for tax purposes and it making sense for what we are wanting to do with my job etc.

New budget $125,000 - $150,000 for tax reasons I do not want to go lower, may go higher if there is a certain threshold where it makes sense to spend over the $150,000 for what you get.

So anyone have a new set of suggestions for this price range? 4 or 6 seat size, single or twin engine, turbo or not, this time I'm not as picky. Also if anyone has financing companies they recommend I'm all ears, but I will be contacting Airfleet and Dorr I believe.
Click to expand...
Baron or 310 if you want a multi. A36 or 210 if you go single.
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
What would a SR20 cost to operate vs a V35?
Click to expand...

Depends on the individual plane.

The SR20 has some recurring expenses for the parachute repack and (if applicable) glass panel avionics.
The V-tail has items like the fuel bladders, landing gear motor, gear transmission that the SR20 is lacking.
A bad year in either is going to hurt. In a good year (most are), all you are going to have are the basic annual, brakes, tires, oil etc.
 
Shawn said:
While window and daydreaming is fun...if you are serious about this endeavor, go get your PPL first THEN go buy a plane. You can research till your eyes bleed, but until you start getting into the air, you will not know what will be truly important to YOU. It falls under the you don't know what you don't know yet category.

While there is nothing wrong with purchasing a plane THEN starting your PPL...you have a specific mission and will need to make SOME compromises to accomplish that in your budget and that will be hard to quantify right outta the gate.
Click to expand...

The SR20 is the Citrus trainer and there are plenty of folks who have done their initial training in a C182. Depending on the local availability of trainer planes and CFIs, 'buy to learn' can be a reasonable option. There is of course an insurance penalty for training in your plane and a 182 burns a couple of extra gallons, on the other hand you don't spend money on rentals and you don't have to spend money on transition training after you are done with the PPL. Take the CFI/CFII along for a couple of the early sales trips and you get the cross country time required for the instrument ticket in a couple of weeks.
 
https://www.controller.com/listings...oney-m20j-201?dlr=1&pcid=99&crmid=614711&if=1

https://www.controller.com/listings...03-cessna-350?dlr=1&pcid=99&crmid=614711&if=1

So those are 2 options im looking at now.. I went over the rest of the years projections last night and I can see where I easily could need to buy a more expensive plane than the m20j above... I also have a cousin that may want to split ownership for the same reason I'm wanting to buy and if thats the case we will need the plane to probably be about $300,000...

So for the $300,000 range what are the suggestions?
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
https://www.controller.com/listings...oney-m20j-201?dlr=1&pcid=99&crmid=614711&if=1

https://www.controller.com/listings...03-cessna-350?dlr=1&pcid=99&crmid=614711&if=1

So those are 2 options im looking at now.. I went over the rest of the years projections last night and I can see where I easily could need to buy a more expensive plane than the m20j above... I also have a cousin that may want to split ownership for the same reason I'm wanting to buy and if thats the case we will need the plane to probably be about $300,000...

So for the $300,000 range what are the suggestions?
Click to expand...
I still think you should look at the Cessna Centurions. Operating costs are around $200/hr. 6 seater with more carrying ability than the Moonies/Beeches/Pipers. You can get a really nice one, maybe even a pressurized one in that price range.

Dan
 
I guess everyone has their preferences. I’d go With an older Diamond DA40 for that price range. (Older meaning 15~ years old)
 
I know this keeps going back and forth but here is the current plan now... I really like Van Bortel, they seem to have a large inventory and good financing on 1997 and newer planes. In about a month we are going to Dallas for a family gathering and so at the same time we plan to visit the dealership and find out in person what fits us. In the meantime I'm going to start Sporty's training and do more plane and hangar research. After talking to my cousin more today he is backing out for now as he just bought another house and doesnt know yet what his financial situation will be here in a few months.. For us personally we probably still will need something in the $150k-$200k range so thats what I'll be looking at. Also we have 2 kids and we are not done yet so 6 seaters are actually very appealing..
 
LOVE the way twins look (i.e. 310R) and having the extra engine would be good piece of mind along with 6 seats but I'm hearing operating costs all over the place... One site says around $200 or so for a 310R and then others seem to be like $300-$500 for twins... What is the operating costs of twins in my budget?

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/27113547/1979-cessna-310r
 
With what your aspirations are for speed and size.. you gotta fly before you buy. Your planning missions before you have had the opportunity to yell “prop clear”. It’s going to take a lot of hours flying in a good trainer before you get all fast 6 seater, twins talk.
I’d just buckle down and get a reasonable trainer that fits some of your specs. I don’t think there’s a trainer out there that will safely fit what you want right now.
 
I see what your saying but I'm justifying it for tax purposes meaning a reasonable trainer wont cost enough to benefit me tax wise for what I need in that area. I mean if nothing else I can hire a pilot for the first little while worse case scenario.
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
So those are 2 options im looking at now.. I went over the rest of the years projections last night and I can see where I easily could need to buy a more expensive plane than the m20j above... I also have a cousin that may want to split ownership for the same reason I'm wanting to buy and if thats the case we will need the plane to probably be about $300,000...
Click to expand...

Would you mind explaining why the need to spend over $150K by yourself or over $300K if you split ownership? What is the tax benefit or rule that would make you prefer to spend more on the plane regardless of the actual mission requirements?

I learned to fly in our 182, great plane and I don't think learning in it added that much to my PPL time. That doesn't mean its the right plane for you but if you did buy it and get your PPL in it, you could easily fly it and stuff around for awhile and also knock out your IR and a good part of your commercial rating. It is a good plane for all kinds of strips as well.

Regarding trips and being a newbie: I have planned a lot of trips that I aborted on. In most cases due to winds that exceed my ability (not the planes) and ceilings I can not go through (IFR). Up here those ceilings will be lower this fall/winter and bring in a freezing layer to also deal with (for me: AVOID!!!).

So lets just pick on one area: winds. I am guessing Texas has winds :)

Lets say you knock our your PPL in 6 months (any plane). Over those next 6-24 months you will slowly get better and better at crosswinds. But in the early part of that time period (1yr, maybe more) you will be watching the direction, speed and gusts very carefully.

It might be calm at your departure and nasty crosswind at your destination. So you don't go (good decision).

It might be crazy crosswind at your departure and calm at your destination. You'll find out taking off in a cross wind is like 74,523x easier than landing in one. So you call the flight (good decision) because you know there is always a chance you will need to abort right after takeoff and would have trouble landing.

So using just the example of winds, what seems so easy, almost romantic or cool...flying somewhere far away above that boring highways...will be tempered by not just winds but several other factors. Eventually you'll get really good at gusty crosswind landings. But maybe you will also wonder if your passenger will want to be a part of that.

Hence why many suggest getting your PPL first...and then look into ownership of something for business. You will most likely see it quite differently after the PPL is signed off.

But since we're spending you money I would consider a 310, 210 or TTx :)
 
Tax reason.. Its 100% tax deductible if for business use. You can decide how much you want to deduct the 1st year and then the rest is spread over 5 years at 40% of the remaining balance each year after the initial year. So this years tax bill if I dont do this will probably be over $45,000, I can instead use that money for a down payment and have something for it vs giving it to the IRS. on a $250,000 plane it will save me approximately $87,000 in taxes that I do not have to pay over the next 5 years including none for this year. Also with some 100% deductible investments we plan to start next year along with the 40% of the remaining balance on the plane counted for next year I may not even have to pay tax next year either. Also if we sell the plane in 5 years for lets say $225,000 with having used it moderately then I have to add that to my taxable income for that year and if thats 37% it would be $83,250 in taxes for the sale. Take that number minus the sale number of 225k and we have $141,750. If the plane saved me $87,000 in taxes during those 5 years then the I would have essentially paid $163,000 for the plane, minus $141,750 after the sale in 5 years and I'm out $21,250. This is not including annuals, insurance, and operating costs but if its business use most of that is deductible as well. I'm in a unique situation with my job helping this make sense for me although I'd not be forced to rely on it at all and if weather delays are present then I can drive. Also we are involved with a ministry where it could easily turn into a tool to benefit that as well.

I would really like to be able to fly 360-400nm in around the 2hour mark.
 
Also not saying I would sell in 5years, the above tax explanation has variables in it and is somewhat rough numbers but solid enough to where this concept will make sense for us. And I've spend about 40mins to an hour or so taking to a CPA with 40 tax seasons experience about this already.
 
Let's assume your tax adviser is 100% spot on.

Are you allowed to operate that bird without a commercial ticket?
Are you moving into part 135 territory?
 
Can you expound on that a little Ravioli? I'm not the expert when it comes to taxes so if you can go into a little more detail or provide me with link or something then I'd like to ask the CPA about it. He knows my situation etc and seems quite familiar with the old vs new tax laws but nobody is perfect, maybe he missed something..
 
Jared Kornelsen said:
I see what your saying but I'm justifying it for tax purposes meaning a reasonable trainer wont cost enough to benefit me tax wise for what I need in that area. I mean if nothing else I can hire a pilot for the first little while worse case scenario.
Click to expand...

I've been lurking on this thread for a while... very interesting I must say.

Reading everything you've written about this airplane project, you have not indicated any real interest in flying, or learning to fly, or training (or costs thereof), or an instrument rating, or thinking about any of these issues. Only in owning an expensive airplane for financial reasons. This last statement (not interested in a "trainer"... huh? you can train in something real nice! Hire a pilot?... huh? Hire a CFI!) seems to cement this sentiment. So I'd say: *do not* fly, or train, or learn to fly. It just doesn't sound like it's your thing. Hire your pilot.

You've also not indicated any interest in the aspects of an airplane's "worth" that most owners and pilots find important (because our lives depend on it), such as the state of the engine, the state of the avionics, the suitability as an IFR platform, etc. You've seemed more interested in how a plane looks, whether it's sporty and sexy and fast, the poshness of the interior, whether it will impress your clients, etc. So perhaps "airplane shopping" is maybe not your thing either. Maybe hire that task out as well, to a skilled pilot/mechanic who knows what to look for under the cowling.

Not trying to sound harsh. That's just the $0.02 I get from reading...

Ravioli is trying to explore whether your plans constitute a commercial operation (and what kind) to the *FAA*, not the IRS. It's not a question for your tax guy. You could ask a CFI, though! :)
 
Eggman and N747JB come to mind as does whoever bought that new Cirrus last year.
 
DesertNomad said:
On the other hand, if I was a client and you flew in, I would assume your company has high fees and is not careful and efficient with money.
Click to expand...

I think most people understand the difference between a single engine piston and a citation.
 
benyflyguy said:
That 280 skylane I bet can haul!!!
Our club skylane is a 182H 230hp with similar stats as ktup.
Click to expand...

Speed is correlated at the cube root of power. So not much. 230 to 280 yields 6% increase in speed.

As to 145+ true in a 182 at 12 gph? Pics or it didn't happen :D.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Speed is correlated at the cube root of power. So not much. 230 to 280 yields 6% increase in speed.

As to 145+ true in a 182 at 12 gph? Pics or it didn't happen :D.
Click to expand...
Lol. If I could get her to 12K perhaps. Or power on descent! :rofl: But truth by told I’m closer to 130 and 14gph I think.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Speed is correlated at the cube root of power. So not much. 230 to 280 yields 6% increase in speed.

As to 145+ true in a 182 at 12 gph? Pics or it didn't happen :D.
Click to expand...
Had my IA turn the prop up so it makes 2500rpm. I was at 143 true before then.
 
Last edited:
kath said:
I've been lurking on this thread for a while... very interesting I must say.

Reading everything you've written about this airplane project, you have not indicated any real interest in flying, or learning to fly, or training (or costs thereof), or an instrument rating, or thinking about any of these issues. Only in owning an expensive airplane for financial reasons. This last statement (not interested in a "trainer"... huh? you can train in something real nice! Hire a pilot?... huh? Hire a CFI!) seems to cement this sentiment. So I'd say: *do not* fly, or train, or learn to fly. It just doesn't sound like it's your thing. Hire your pilot.

You've also not indicated any interest in the aspects of an airplane's "worth" that most owners and pilots find important (because our lives depend on it), such as the state of the engine, the state of the avionics, the suitability as an IFR platform, etc. You've seemed more interested in how a plane looks, whether it's sporty and sexy and fast, the poshness of the interior, whether it will impress your clients, etc. So perhaps "airplane shopping" is maybe not your thing either. Maybe hire that task out as well, to a skilled pilot/mechanic who knows what to look for under the cowling.

Not trying to sound harsh. That's just the $0.02 I get from reading...

Ravioli is trying to explore whether your plans constitute a commercial operation (and what kind) to the *FAA*, not the IRS. It's not a question for your tax guy. You could ask a CFI, though! :)
Click to expand...


I suppose some of the questions I ask show how green I am, but I dont really mind, thats what this place is for right? Also I see how you would come up with that assessment kath. I suppose I see flying as more of a very useful and efficient tool that happens to be a lot of fun to boot! I'm more into cars than planes but I still do really like planes and if I would never use one for anything other than pleasure then I would probably still have got a plane eventually when we have a place of our own and are much more established than we are right now with putting down roots, kids more grown, and some spending money for anything. Lucky me I have a bevy of other reasons that make it make sense now. I do want to fly it myself. I've contacted a CFI today and he is out of town till next week or so but once he is back we will have coffee or something and I'll pepper him with questions and I'm sure he will have some good advice for me. He is also familiar with the dealership in Arlington.

With using it for ministry purposes its becoming more and more evident that a 6 seater may be a really good idea.. idk if a nice 4 seater would do now and then trade it for 6 in a year or 2 would be smarter though than going straight to a 6? How easy is it to trade planes and do you loose your butt like in a car if you deal with dealerships? Also do yall think it would be smarter to get financing lined up from a finance company or better to do in house like at Van Bortel? I feel like its hard to beat their financing on 1997 and newer but on the older planes other companies are a good bit better...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top