Upcoming FAA Action on DL Medical?

Henning said:
You think the FAA wants to have a third class medical? I don't, everything they have done in the over 20 years I have been flying was loosen the reigns on GA. They don't need this resource drain, their budget is small enough and they have quite a bit on their manpower plate dealing with the commercial sector. SP/LSA has been a bit of a proving ground of relinquishing policing of standards to industry and the insurance companies. If they can get recreational GA out of their sphere of responsibility that would open up some budget hours for the commercial stuff.
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You'd think that, wouldn't you? But they have had the ability to change the rules all along, and have failed to do so, even since they have had a specific proposal from the EAA & AOPA to do so. So I tend not to judge by what makes sense, but by observed behavior.

I have yet to see a bureaucracy willingly give up any power over its subjects, but I suppose it could happen.
 
tinerj said:
Do the sport pilot instructors (those who only train sport pilots) and only fly in planes that meet the sport plane criteria need a medical?
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Not if they have a valid US DL, but they do need one or the other if they are going to be a required pilot crewmember (e.g., acting as PIC while giving primary Sport Pilot training).
 
DaleB said:
You'd think that, wouldn't you? But they have had the ability to change the rules all along, and have failed to do so, even since they have had a specific proposal from the EAA & AOPA to do so. So I tend not to judge by what makes sense, but by observed behavior. .
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Big bureaucracies move very, very slowly, and need a damn good excuse to do so. Remember, the minute someone augurs into a school full of kiddies because they couldn't see or were in the middle of stroking out it's the FAA who's going to get thrown to the mat, and they know it. That said, a bill rattling around in Congress might put a fire under their collective sixes.
 
Here's to hoping! Would be nice to get my training started.

There are a lot of us out there who would likely get an SI who don't bother because of the nonsense bureaucracy.
 
The simple fact is that flaming death is already raining from the sky in the form of sport pilots operating on drivers licenses. So much, that there is no statistical measure that can be made to show a significant difference in accident rates before and after the introduction of the sport pilot rule.

Having higher energy aircraft involved will mean that not changing the accident rate in any measurable way will result in, um, not much.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
The simple fact is that flaming death is already raining from the sky in the form of sport pilots operating on drivers licenses. So much, that there is no statistical measure that can be made to show a significant difference in accident rates before and after the introduction of the sport pilot rule.

Having higher energy aircraft involved will mean that not changing the accident rate in any measurable way will result in, um, not much.
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I don't know where Geoffrey is getting his information, but Bruce and I have talked about this, and it is my understanding the FAA has seen enough pilot incapacitation accidents involving Sport Pilots with disqualifying conditions flying LSA's on DL's to be concerned about the issue. I don't have the details, but I suspect the FAA is preparing a presentation on this point for the Congressional committees handling these bills.
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't know where Geoffrey is getting his information, but Bruce and I have talked about this, and it is my understanding the FAA has seen enough pilot incapacitation accidents involving Sport Pilots with disqualifying conditions flying LSA's on DL's to be concerned about the issue. I don't have the details, but I suspect the FAA is preparing a presentation on this point for the Congressional committees handling these bills.
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Are there incapacitation accidents involving DL medicals? Yes
Are there incapacitation accidents involving FAA medicals? Yes.

Can you show that the two populations are the same. Of course not. Statistics don't work that way.

Can you show with any statistical significance that there is a difference between these populations? No, you can not. No way, no how.

Why? In both cases they are rare events which do not lend themselves to good statistics. Plus, you don't know the size of the population much less how much they fly. Plus, according to the good Dr., the NTSB does not accurately reflect medical issues in their accident reports.

Even if you could somehow prove that incapacitation events events happen more often (which common sense tells us that they should even if statistics don't) you would still only prove that you can't show a significant difference in the total accidents. In other words, resources that could be used to actually improve safety, are instead being wasted on the FAA medical process.

Now, you could compare a known population of aircraft for the total accidents, before and after the sport pilot rules. But if you do, you will, again, find nothing - just like I did.

Bottom line, just like I said, "there is no statistical measure that can be made to show a significant difference in accident rates before and after the introduction of the sport pilot rule."

Show me numbers that will prove me wrong.
 
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I don't have the numbers, but clearly you don't have them, either. All I'm saying is I've heard the FAA does have those numbers and they're looking into the situation with concern. Further, it is my understanding that this is in part why the FAA Administrator told Craig Fuller a few years ago that the AOPA/EAA petition to the FAA asking for essentially the same things as in GAPPA was "dead on arrival". The fact that AOPA/EAA have done an end-run around that rulemaking petition process by having Congress intervene doesn't change the FAA's concerns, only making it possible that those concerns will be overruled by Congress. Of course, that would make it very easy for the FAA -- if anything bad happens, they can just shrug and say "Congress made us do it." In the mean time, I suspect the FAA is putting those numbers into a presentation for Congress so if something bad does happen, Congress can't say "you never warned us".
 
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Are there incapacitation accidents involving DL medicals? Yes
Are there incapacitation accidents involving FAA medicals? Yes.

Can you show that the two populations are the same. Of course not. Statistics don't work that way.

Can you show with any statistical significance that there is a difference between these populations? No, you can not. No way, no how.

Why? In both cases they are rare events which do not lend themselves to good statistics. Plus, you don't know the size of the population much less how much they fly. Plus, according to the good Dr., the NTSB does not accurately reflect medical issues in their accident reports.

Even if you could somehow prove that incapacitation events events happen more often (which common sense tells us that they should even if statistics don't) you would still only prove that you can't show a significant difference in the total accidents. In other words, resources that could be used to actually improve safety, are instead being wasted on the FAA medical process.

Now, you could compare a known population of aircraft for the total accidents, before and after the sport pilot rules. But if you do, you will, again, find nothing - just like I did.

Bottom line, just like I said, "there is no statistical measure that can be made to show a significant difference in accident rates before and after the introduction of the sport pilot rule."

Show me numbers that will prove me wrong.
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All you say may well be true. The FAA will still show congress whatever they want in order to support the position they take on any particular matter. Federal bureaucracies are quite good at generating supporting "facts" even when those "facts" aren't based in fact. As an example, look at how the FAA handled the sequester. Further example is at the individual level with all the Federal employees whining about how they weren't getting paid when the government ran out of money. It's just the culture and we the taxpayers get to pay for all the BS.
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't have the numbers, but clearly you don't have them, either.
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I don't have what doesn't exist.

How many pilots are actively flying under the sport pilot rules?

All I'm saying is I've heard the FAA does have those numbers
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What kind of numbers? Specifically.

Bottom line, just like I said, "there is no statistical measure that can be made to show a significant difference in accident rates before and after the introduction of the sport pilot rule."

Show me numbers that will prove me wrong.
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't know where Geoffrey is getting his information, but Bruce and I have talked about this, and it is my understanding the FAA has seen enough pilot incapacitation accidents involving Sport Pilots with disqualifying conditions flying LSA's on DL's to be concerned about the issue. I don't have the details, but I suspect the FAA is preparing a presentation on this point for the Congressional committees handling these bills.
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Yeah. Sounds like my mechanic telling my why it's important that the state requires me to get a smog check every two years. After he spent $50k on a new smog check machine.
 
Henning said:
You think the FAA wants to have a third class medical? I don't, everything they have done in the over 20 years I have been flying was loosen the reigns on GA...
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I would cite the proposed imposition of sleep apnea screening, which the FAA itself said would eventually be expanded to an estimated 1/3 of all pilots, as evidence the agency is still actively seeking additional workload.
 
PW_Plack said:
I would cite the proposed imposition of sleep apnea screening, which the FAA itself said would eventually be expanded to an estimated 1/3 of all pilots, as evidence the agency is still actively seeking additional workload power and control.
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There... fixed it. Minor spelling error, there.
 
I think that the fact that the FAA does not know how many pilots are flying under the SP rules is a itch that the FAA will need to scratch. Somehow, they are going to require SP and PPL with DI "medical" to register each year or every two years so they can claim a larger pilot pool and justify the portion of their budget that deals with those fliers.
 
tinerj said:
I think that the fact that the FAA does not know how many pilots are flying under the SP rules is a itch that the FAA will need to scratch. Somehow, they are going to require SP and PPL with DI "medical" to register each year or every two years so they can claim a larger pilot pool and justify the portion of their budget that deals with those fliers.
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You have a bright future as a bureaucrat. :mad2:
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't know where Geoffrey is getting his information, but Bruce and I have talked about this, and it is my understanding the FAA has seen enough pilot incapacitation accidents involving Sport Pilots with disqualifying conditions flying LSA's on DL's to be concerned about the issue.
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According to Rod Hightower, former EAA Fearless Leader, there is a hotspot of GA accidents in the light sport category. However, these did not arise from medical incapacitation but pilot miscontrol on landing. Apparently the LSAs fly differently the the aircraft to which their pilots were accustomed.

If the FAA has the data then by all means, but I doubt it strongly. There are years of records for glider pilots, who also don't need a medical. The rates of medical incapacitation for glider and powered pilots has been identical for many years.

Oh, and I did the petition thingie too.
 
Originally Posted by tinerj View Post
I think that the fact that the FAA does not know how many pilots are flying under the SP rules is a itch that the FAA will need to scratch. Somehow, they are going to require SP and PPL with DI "medical" to register each year or every two years so they can claim a larger pilot pool and justify the portion of their budget that deals with those fliers.
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Old Geek said:
You have a bright future as a bureaucrat. :mad2:
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Been there, done that, for 20 years.
 
tinerj said:
I think that the fact that the FAA does not know how many pilots are flying under the SP rules is a itch that the FAA will need to scratch. Somehow, they are going to require SP and PPL with DI "medical" to register each year or every two years so they can claim a larger pilot pool and justify the portion of their budget that deals with those fliers.
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You need the data if you want to do even half assed statistics on things like safety and rates of medical incapacitation.

steingar said:
According to Rod Hightower, former EAA Fearless Leader, there is a hotspot of GA accidents in the light sport category. However, these did not arise from medical incapacitation but pilot miscontrol on landing. Apparently the LSAs fly differently the the aircraft to which their pilots were accustomed.
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No kidding. You actually have to fly the ***** all the way down to the pavement.

If the FAA has the data then by all means, but I doubt it strongly. There are years of records for glider pilots, who also don't need a medical. The rates of medical incapacitation for glider and powered pilots has been identical for many years.
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How do that calculate that rate?

Oh, and I did the petition thingie too.
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I sent a note off to a couple Michigan pilots to help offset the votes from Ohio. ;)
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
How do that calculate that rate?
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Number of incapacitation accidents versus pilot population, hours flown, or whatever other denominator one thinks relevant. I started reading comments like this after I first started flying and believe them utterly. Accidents due to medical incapacitation are vanishingly rare.
 
Incapacitate is not the sole cause of accidents due to a medical condition.

I do believe, however, that the medical prevents some pilots from seeking the medical attention they need. Once they start meds, even for a borderline condition, passing the medical becomes more involved. So if the family doctor wants to put them on certain meds as a precaution, they hesitate to do so for the legitimate concern of what may happen when it comes time to fill out the medical form.

Really, in my opinion, the sport pilots are healthier than they would be otherwise and less likely to suffer an accident due to a medical condition because they are free to be treated for it.
 
tinerj said:
Incapacitate is not the sole cause of accidents due to a medical condition.

I do believe, however, that the medical prevents some pilots from seeking the medical attention they need. Once they start meds, even for a borderline condition, passing the medical becomes more involved. So if the family doctor wants to put them on certain meds as a precaution, they hesitate to do so for the legitimate concern of what may happen when it comes time to fill out the medical form.

Really, in my opinion, the sport pilots are healthier than they would be otherwise and less likely to suffer an accident due to a medical condition because they are free to be treated for it.
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Excellent points.
 
I wrote up my best arguments and sent them to my Congresswoman and Senators today.
 
My wife is a District Director for a U.S. Congressman...told him personally and he does not want to **** her off so he's on board...
 
Sent mine out yesterday. Soooo glad I'm seeing so many others do the same.

We need this to pass now more than ever!!
 
tinerj said:
Incapacitate is not the sole cause of accidents due to a medical condition.



I do believe, however, that the medical prevents some pilots from seeking the medical attention they need. Once they start meds, even for a borderline condition, passing the medical becomes more involved. So if the family doctor wants to put them on certain meds as a precaution, they hesitate to do so for the legitimate concern of what may happen when it comes time to fill out the medical form.



Really, in my opinion, the sport pilots are healthier than they would be otherwise and less likely to suffer an accident due to a medical condition because they are free to be treated for it.
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100% agree. I am more hesitant to go to a doctor for this very reason.
 
Just taking a look at this, on the EAA Rally Congress website there have been over 4,000 people sending over 10,500 letters and emails to our congressmen so far! Every few seconds, someone sends an email or letter to their Congressmen.

Do you think the number of people sending those emails and letters to their Congressmen will go over the number of comments on the original AOPA/EAA medical exemption petition (over 16,000)? Do you also think the total number of emails and letters sent to our Congressmen will go over 16,000 as well?
 
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Probably, and since they're elected representatives it should be more likely that action will be taken. So long as we voice our opinions.
 
I wonder what the reaction would be to an old fashioned mail campaign. Do you think that more notice would be taken, and taken more seriously, if a truckload of letters showed up on the steps of the Capitol?
 
The number of letters and emails sent to our Congressmen exceeded the number of comments on the AOPA/EAA proposal! We have over 17,000 letters and emails sent!

Number of people who wrote to their Congressmen is nearly 7,000! Let's see if we can get the number of people who wrote those letters to exceed 16,000!
 
So if this bill passes, I think the responsibility for seeing if someone is fit to fly transfers from the AME to the CFI or DPE.

Let me ask you this question. Would you prefer to have an AME or a CFI/DPE make that decision if you are fit to fly or not?

From what I heard, the AME just examines you for like 10 minutes while a CFI or DPE knows about your strengths and weaknesses in your training.
 
N918KT said:
Let me ask you this question. Would you prefer to have an AME or a CFI/DPE make that decision if you are fit to fly or not?
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I'm 53 years old and well aware of my medical state. I think I'm capable of determining for myself whether or not I'm medically fit to fly.
 
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