Unusual Attitude in IMC during IFR Checkride?

hish747

hish747

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Hish747
I was talking with a friend who told me that his examiner put the plane in an unusual attitude in solid IMC conditions during the instrument check ride. 1000 ft overcast and at one point the pitot iced over. Has anyone ever heard of or had an examiner do that?
 
My ride was about 15+ years ago. The examiner said that the faa discouraged him from flying single engine in actual. My ride was in VMC.

If the pitot iced over then he was in conditions which became known ice at that point correct?
 
Would tend to doubt it.
 
I thought the check ride had to be VMC?

Visible moisture - Pitot heat to on.
 
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hish747 said:
I was talking with a friend who told me that his examiner put the plane in an unusual attitude in solid IMC conditions during the instrument check ride. 1000 ft overcast and at one point the pitot iced over. Has anyone ever heard of or had an examiner do that?
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IMC, icing, checkride, intentional unusual attitude. I suspect this incident is either untrue, or highly exaggerated. If an examiner attempted such a thing, I would land the airplane at the nearest airport and tell the examiner to find his own ride home, and demand my money back.
 
You can’t be in IMC during checkride. I call
BS on it. I just had my checkride. We had to wait for a forecast of 5000’ ceilings. I was PIc for my ride and DPE is not so that alone would not allow me to be in IMC.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
That would force the DPE to be the PIC, and file under his name.
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Why would that be a problem? I did my instrument checkride on an IFR clearance because we couldn’t legally get it done VFR. It wasn’t a big deal.

As I said earlier, it is up to the examiner. The FAA strongly discourages doing checkrides in actual instrument conditions but does not forbid it.
 
benyflyguy said:
You can’t be in IMC during checkride
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I don't think that's an actual rule, just very uncommon. My examiner back in 2016 gave me the option.. his only advice was "the majority of my candidates who do their checkride in actual IMC fail, but it's up to you" <- the logic of which is interesting, if you're going to the FAA saying "I'm ready to fly in the clouds!" but then you can't actually demonstrate that.. somehow seems incongruent with me. Granted, I was in no mood to fail that day so I passed the ground and rescheduled the flying part of it.

hish747 said:
unusual attitude in solid IMC
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What sticks out as an obvious "this didn't happen" clue is that generally when you practice unusual attitudes your heading and altitude are going to vary dramatically.. you certainly will not be doing the +/- 100ft and +/- 10* course at that point.. I'm not sure how ATC would handle someone on an IFR plan requesting air work, or just willy nilly bouncing around. Of course the possibility exists they were in one of the (very rare, at least in my experience) legitimate uncontrolled airspace where IMC flight without talking to anyone is permissable
 
My examiner would not do unusual attitudes in IMC. So we had to reschedule...he was fine with us doing the ride in actual but needed VMC for the unusual attitudes.

And as far as slogging around in IMC, just request a block altitude if you plan to be up and down. That way you're free to move about.
 
Tantalum said:
I don't think that's an actual rule, just very uncommon. My examiner back in 2016 gave me the option.. his only advice was "the majority of my candidates who do their checkride in actual IMC fail, but it's up to you" <- the logic of which is interesting, if you're going to the FAA saying "I'm ready to fly in the clouds!" but then you can't actually demonstrate that.. somehow seems incongruent with me. Granted, I was in no mood to fail that day so I passed the ground and rescheduled the flying part of it.


What sticks out as an obvious "this didn't happen" clue is that generally when you practice unusual attitudes your heading and altitude are going to vary dramatically.. you certainly will not be doing the +/- 100ft and +/- 10* course at that point.. I'm not sure how ATC would handle someone on an IFR plan requesting air work, or just willy nilly bouncing around. Of course the possibility exists they were in one of the (very rare, at least in my experience) legitimate uncontrolled airspace where IMC flight without talking to anyone is permissable
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Block altitudes and a maneuvering area are pretty easy to get under IFR in some areas of the country.
 
I really doubt a DPE did an unusual attitude in hard IMC. The effects on the inner ear could create a really bad situation for even the most grizzled DPE.

Pugs said:
I thought the check ride had to be VMC?

Visible moisture - Pitot heat to on.
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There is no technical requirement that the ride be in VMC, but some FSDOs functionally ban it. I was actually prepared to do IFR to VFR on top and maybe an approach when some really stupid clouds suddenly came in for my check ride, but the DPE (who had done IMC checkrides before) said FSDO had told them that they didn't want the liability anymore and to not do them.
 
I did my IR ride(s) in VMC back in 2011. And I agree - visible moisture and the pitot heat is on.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
That would force the DPE to be the PIC, and file under his name.
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That’s is correct and it’s allowed under the regulations: §61.47

b) The examiner is not the pilot in command of the aircraft during the practical test unless the examiner agrees to act in that capacity for the flight or for a portion of the flight by prior arrangement
with:
(1) The applicant; or
(2) A person who would otherwise act as pilot in command of the flight or for a portion of the
flight.
(c) Notwithstanding the type of aircraft used during the practical test, the applicant and the examiner (and any other occupants authorized to be on board by the examiner) are not subject to the
requirements or limitations for the carriage of passengers that are specified in this chapter.

So the applicant doesn’t have to agree and can postpone the test. But the DPE can file and the test can go on. I know several people in the NE who did this. Doing unusual attitudes would seem a stretch but depends on what the conditions actually are.


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sarangan said:
IMC, icing, checkride, intentional unusual attitude. I suspect this incident is either untrue, or highly exaggerated. If an examiner attempted such a thing, I would land the airplane at the nearest airport and tell the examiner to find his own ride home, and demand my money back.
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I tend to agree with this post.

There is nothing wrong with a DPE electing to act as PIC and do an IFR checkride under instrument flight rules. Discouraged by the FAA for a number of reasons, but not prohibited.

But doing such things as unusual attitudes for real (like really killing the engine or setting fire to the airplane on a private ride) have so many other things wrong with them, I'd report the DPE. The FAA might say, "that's OK," but I'd want them to take a look.
 
most likely any dpa as mine was would not sign on to the idea of being pic.and was insulted that I would ask. think story is bs
 
A DPE was conducting an IR practical test in IMC with icing conditions and having the applicant recover from unusual attitudes. Will call BS on that story.

It is also unusual for a test under actual because the DPE is on the hook for any deviations.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
That would force the DPE to be the PIC, and file under his name.
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Still not 100% on the rules behind this, but on my ride I was told to file IFR under my name. Was VMC but still on an IFR flight plan, as he said “as for the purposes of this flight, you are instrument rated unless you prove to me otherwise”
 
Michael A said:
Still not 100% on the rules behind this, but on my ride I was told to file IFR under my name. Was VMC but still on an IFR flight plan, as he said “as for the purposes of this flight, you are instrument rated unless you prove to me otherwise”
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Why would you need to file for a check ride if VMC?
 
EdFred said:
Why would you need to file for a check ride if VMC?
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I had to file an IFR flight plan for my IFR checkride, and I believe it was to show I knew how to file, obtain and read back an actual clearance directly to ATC. He clearly also wanted to observe that I could safely fly the departure (going under the hood at 200') and intercept the course to the first fix on my clearance. After I proved I could do all that the DPE radio'd ATC and cancelled the IFR flight plan.

I honestly can't remember if it was filed under my name or his.
 
I filed and flew it.

Once arriving at the destination we modified the plan when asked how the approach would terminate. After completing a hold and all of the approaches at that airport, including the NDB (aarrgghh), we requested the RNAV at the origin airport and the DPE informed the controller we would be doing some unusual attitudes on the way back. There is a fair amount of training in the area and a lot of military traffic but it didn't seem to bother the controller at all. It was a few years ago so I may not be remembering it exactly but I believe that we did everything while in the system.
 
hish747 said:
I was talking with a friend who told me that his examiner put the plane in an unusual attitude in solid IMC conditions during the instrument check ride. 1000 ft overcast and at one point the pitot iced over. Has anyone ever heard of or had an examiner do that?
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Is his plane faster and burns less fuel than everyone else?
 
We had an FAA examiner who did unusual attitudes, IMC, in the King Air on 135 check rides.

Nowadays though, I don't think most FAA people are even pilots.
 
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kgruber said:
We had an FAA examiner who did unusual attitudes in the King Air on 135 check rides.

Nowadays though, I don't think most FAA people are even pilots.
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If they’re giving the checkride in the airplane, they still have to do the unusual attitudes.
 
I did my instrument ride back in the days where it wasn't frowned upon to do it in IMC, but as I recall we climbed out on top to do the unusual attitude work.
 
Most of my instrument checkride (in 1992) was in VMC, but there was one point in the flight where the DPE requested an IFR clearance. (That was for an approach, not the unusual attitudes.)
 
Most of my instrument checkride (in 1980) was in VMC. There was an instrument flight plan filed to a nearby airport and my first actual IFR included a for real missed approach. At minimums (NDB approach) we were near the cloud tops. Then a couple instrument approaches at CLT, more actual. Home airport was nice VFR.
 
Legally, a non instrument rated pilot cannot file an IFR flight plan, so a DPE having you file isn't allowed. Either they have to file their own or they have to do what the one I had did and request a local IFR on the ground. Then you prove your ability to do a CRAFT. Mine had me do a touch and go and cancel on the go to do the rest of the check ride after the ILS
 
N1120A said:
Legally, a non instrument rated pilot cannot file an IFR flight plan, so a DPE having you file isn't allowed. Either they have to file their own or they have to do what the one I had did and request a local IFR on the ground. Then you prove your ability to do a CRAFT. Mine had me do a touch and go and cancel on the go to do the rest of the check ride after the ILS
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Which regulation that states that they cannot file? They can FILE, but they cannot accept the clearance as PIC. There's a difference.

You can file flight plans all day long and never even leave your house. They just die if they don't get opened.
 
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Note that the FAA discourages DPEs from being PIC on checkrides, but it's not an absolute prohibition.
 
My check ride sucked because it was a marginal to IMC day and we changed the plan 3 times to stay VMC for the ride. DPE said no IMC. So we ended up going to airports I'd never been to and I had to prep for about 10 or 12 approaches and then abort most of them, before we finally managed to accomplish what was needed.

I really should have postponed the ride, but I had a trip coming up and wanted to get it done before the trip. I actually had to circle around for 20 minutes waiting for the field I was meeting the DPE at to go VFR. Eventually during the check ride, I screwed up and blew past lateral while I was trying to load the approach into the GPS and fly it at the same time. I should have told ATC I needed vectors to go around rather than rush it, but I tried to do it all and failed. Just had to shoot one simple approach second time around to pass. I'd managed to handle hand flying the approach while loading it a few times already on previous aborted attempts but I had definitely lost the edge I had at the beginning of the day after a few time around. DPE really felt bad about failing me since I'd already proven multiple times I could handle it, but a full scale deflection is a full scale deflection.

Moral of the story is 1) Wait for a good VMC day and 2) Discontinue if the weather starts going wonky and 3) there's no harm in starting an approach over if you get behind.
 
Salty said:
My check ride sucked because it was a marginal to IMC day and we changed the plan 3 times to stay VMC for the ride. DPE said no IMC. So we ended up going to airports I'd never been to and I had to prep for about 10 or 12 approaches and then abort most of them, before we finally managed to accomplish what was needed.

I really should have postponed the ride, but I had a trip coming up and wanted to get it done before the trip. I actually had to circle around for 20 minutes waiting for the field I was meeting the DPE at to go VFR. Eventually during the check ride, I screwed up and blew past lateral while I was trying to load the approach into the GPS and fly it at the same time. I should have told ATC I needed vectors to go around rather than rush it, but I tried to do it all and failed. Just had to shoot one simple approach second time around to pass. I'd managed to handle hand flying the approach while loading it a few times already on previous aborted attempts but I had definitely lost the edge I had at the beginning of the day after a few time around. DPE really felt bad about failing me since I'd already proven multiple times I could handle it, but a full scale deflection is a full scale deflection.

Moral of the story is 1) Wait for a good VMC day and 2) Discontinue if the weather starts going wonky and 3) there's no harm in starting an approach over if you get behind.
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And ask for delay vectors if you are behind the airplane. Works every time.
 
EdFred said:
Which regulation that states that they cannot file? They can FILE, but they cannot accept the clearance as PIC. There's a difference.

You can file flight plans all day long and never even leave your house. They just die if they don't get opened.
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A distinction without a difference.

flyingron said:
Note that the FAA discourages DPEs from being PIC on checkrides, but it's not an absolute prohibition.
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This is true, though certain FSDOs have functionally banned it.
 
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