Unlocked baggage door in flight

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AuntPeggy

AuntPeggy

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About a week ago someone told me to leave the baggage door unlocked during flight so that it can be used as a rescue entry/exit in case of crash. I had never heard such a thing before and routinely make sure the door is locked as part of my pre-flight. Then, on Saturday I heard the same thing again. Is this something new? Have you heard it too? Do you do it? Is it a good idea?
 
I have never heard this and think it to be a bad idea. Mostly because at some portion of the flight the door on my piper could open and stuff could be lost. Also it is real easy to kick out a side window or just pop the regular door per checklist. I also think that if the airframe is so bent up that you can't make you way out a door or window that the passage back to the cargo compartment ain't gonna be that easy either.

I think sometimes people get themselves worked up over nothing and this is one of those nothings. They are offering you a solution to a problem that does not exists and may end up making another problem.
 
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I'd leave the door locked. It's far more likely that it pop open in flight and your stuff falls out.

Besides, have you tried crawling in and out of one of those things before? I have (long story), and it's not the sort of thing you're likely to do right after a wreck. Plus, I barely fit through one, despite having the physique of a twig.
 
I've heard that before, and chose to ignore it because I can't physically fit through the door...


Trapper John
 
Depends on the airplane. Some airplanes (eg Mooneys) have emergency releases on the inside of the door that allow you to keep it locked and have it as an emergency exit. Others do not allow it to be locked without locking the door as well. Some airplanes have emergency exits built into the windows on the side opposite the door.

I would be more worried about the egress issue in a single door airplane than in one that had more than one door. What you're worried about is not egress after a catastrophic crash. The airframe generally peels apart in that case. I think the real concern is being trapped after a minor crash that distorts the airframe enough to jam the doors and there is the potential for fire. In that case, I would want as many options for exit as possible, particularly if carrying passengers.

In none of my airplanes have I locked the baggage doors. If the door flies open, you land and close it, and any loss or damage just makes you smarter. And yes, I did have a partner neglect to secure the nose bay on my first Lance. There was minor damage.
 
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A lot depends on the plane.

C-172? the lock is the latch. It's a piece of metal that looks fairly bendable. It looks like it can be kicked open or one can keep a apir of pliers back there to bend it open. If you can contort yourself enough to get back there in a '172, you probably have the strength to get the door open. Older Cessnas let the window open all the way so that is an egress path...or keep a screwdriver handy to undo the limiting brace on the newer planes...

Other planes? I don't know...

I'm not too worried about it
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'd leave the door locked. It's far more likely that it pop open in flight and your stuff falls out.

Besides, have you tried crawling in and out of one of those things before? I have (long story), and it's not the sort of thing you're likely to do right after a wreck. Plus, I barely fit through one, despite having the physique of a twig.
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Actually, Ted, I have managed to enter my plane through the baggage door and climbed into the front seat. And, as you know, I'm no longer built like a twig. That was the day I had the baggage and ignition key, but not the door key. Who says the need to fly is not an addiction.
 
C-172? the lock is the latch. It's a piece of metal that looks fairly bendable. It looks like it can be kicked open or one can keep a apir of pliers back there to bend it open. If you can contort yourself enough to get back there in a '172, you probably have the strength to get the door open.
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Way way too much trouble.

Think outside the box.

Why would you want to fool around with climbing over the seats into a little inconvinent storage area to get to a little hard to open door to get out in an emergency? There's not a self-respecting fire department out there that will show up and start messing with a little 1-2 ft square metal covered hole in the back of the plane to get you out. Windows are not steel reinforced concrete walls in your typical GA plane. Just kick or push any window out and you're outta there in seconds. Seriously, your average GA plexiglass window is only slightly more difficult to open than a screen door.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'd leave the door locked. It's far more likely that it pop open in flight and your stuff falls out.

Besides, have you tried crawling in and out of one of those things before? I have (long story), and it's not the sort of thing you're likely to do right after a wreck. Plus, I barely fit through one, despite having the physique of a twig.
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what kind of airplane ted? i have crawled into Cessna's many times through the baggage door.
 
tonycondon said:
what kind of airplane ted? i have crawled into Cessna's many times through the baggage door.
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And there was the time Leslie and her instructor had a stripper, errrr exotic dancer, crawl in through the baggage door to open the main door, which was jammed. Helps when you're flexible!
 
gprellwitz said:
And there was the time Leslie and her instructor had a stripper, errrr exotic dancer, crawl in through the baggage door to open the main door, which was jammed. Helps when you're flexible!
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the fact that I did it proves that there is no need to be flexible. IIRC I just stood up through the door, with my back facing the airplane. then sat down in the baggage area, and pulled my legs in. reached up and unlatched the door and slid right back out.
 
gprellwitz said:
And there was the time Leslie and her instructor had a stripper, errrr exotic dancer, crawl in through the baggage door to open the main door, which was jammed. Helps when you're flexible!
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Your airport has stripp.... uh, exotic dancers? Entertainment while waiting on the fuel truck! :D
 
AuntPeggy said:
Actually, Ted, I have managed to enter my plane through the baggage door and climbed into the front seat. And, as you know, I'm no longer built like a twig. That was the day I had the baggage and ignition key, but not the door key. Who says the need to fly is not an addiction.
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You probably have better flexibility and a better method than me. :)

The plane in question was a 182. I recall being extraordinarily uncomfortable, plus not finding it to be a particularly good process to get in and out, and then sit back there (long story, no we did not leave the ground). I suppose I would find this option less appealing in a crash (especially after climbing out back) to just kicking out a window and climbing out of that. On the planes I fly, the window option I think is significantly nicer.

Anyways, I think it's making an issue out of something that isn't an issue. I have had doors pop open on me during flight several times, and I see that as creating a bigger safety issue and potentially leading towards a crash (mainly due to distractions, etc.) than having a locked baggage door that you then have to kick a little harder to open in the event of a minor crash where you're still conscious and mobile enough to get out.
 
gprellwitz said:
And there was the time Leslie and her instructor had a stripper, errrr exotic dancer, crawl in through the baggage door to open the main door, which was jammed. Helps when you're flexible!
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Hey...


...you got video of that? :D
 
I'd never leave the baggage door unlatched.

First of all it will flap in the air under the right airflow conditions and as above your stuff will fall out. I usually have thr under some pressure as it holds stuff back. There's only so much you can do with holding stuff down with a couple of bungees.

The latch at the end of the pin cylinder is tenuous enough that it'll break loose with a good kick anyway. I've had those break. It's the same as on desk drawers - very easy to force open. I fear the pressure from baggage alone as above will snap it.

I have crawled pretty far into the baggage area through the door so I think I can squeeze through mine (maybe when I was thinner :redface:) although I go over the back seat when packing.

I think this advice has the same creedence as all of those who say never fasten your seat belt because you'll get trapped in a fire.
 
I would never, never, never leave the baggage door unlocked....

Piper is a wanderer. The thought of him plummeting to his death (its already almost happened two times, once due to a popped baggage door, and a second due to a popped entrance door) is enough to keep me looking for other alternatives for egress.

Kick out a window, kick open the baggage door, something. Or better yet...don't crash :D
 
SkyHog said:
I would never, never, never leave the baggage door unlocked....

Piper is a wanderer. The thought of him plummeting to his death (its already almost happened two times, once due to a popped baggage door, and a second due to a popped entrance door) is enough to keep me looking for other alternatives for egress.

Kick out a window, kick open the baggage door, something. Or better yet...don't crash :D
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I'll keep Pancho in her seat belt harness. She likes traveling (in the car) so much she gets excited when I pick it up. She hasn't gone on plane ride yet. The difference will be I'll put her in the back seat to keep her away from the yoke.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3307+12+113+639&pcatid=639
 
mikea said:
I'll keep Pancho in her seat belt harness. She likes traveling (in the car) so much she gets excited when I pick it up. She hasn't gone on plane ride yet. The difference will be I'll put her in the back seat to keep her away from the yoke.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3307+12+113+639&pcatid=639
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I decided against a harness because in case of emergency, I want to be sure I can get out quickly without fiddling with someone else's seatbelt if I can avoid it. I know that I couldn't leave Piper in a burning airplane, so I'd rather he be a projectile and break some bones than a trapped poor little doggie that burns to death.

Plus, I don't trust seatbelts in cars, I certainly don't trust 'em in planes.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Besides, have you tried crawling in and out of one of those things before? I have (long story), and it's not the sort of thing you're likely to do right after a wreck. Plus, I barely fit through one, despite having the physique of a twig.
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AuntPeggy said:
Actually, Ted, I have managed to enter my plane through the baggage door and climbed into the front seat. And, as you know, I'm no longer built like a twig. That was the day I had the baggage and ignition key, but not the door key. Who says the need to fly is not an addiction.
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tonycondon said:
what kind of airplane ted? i have crawled into Cessna's many times through the baggage door.
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tonycondon said:
the fact that I did it proves that there is no need to be flexible. IIRC I just stood up through the door, with my back facing the airplane. then sat down in the baggage area, and pulled my legs in. reached up and unlatched the door and slid right back out.
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Ted DuPuis said:
The plane in question was a 182.
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Ted,

What vintage 182? :dunno: I can easily get through the baggage door on ours (1971), and I'm neither flexible nor twiggy.

And I had to for almost the same reason as Peggy - Doors were locked, and pilot's side door handle was knocked inside the door (I hate that). But as tall as I am, I didn't have to actually get in (which would have certainly put the plane on its tail) - I simply stood up through the baggage door, leaned over the back seat, reached into the front seat and popped the door while still standing on the ground outside the airplane. :rofl:
 
I teach to leave it unlocked during flight. It's not planning for the worst case but a plan for preparedness. Ken nailed the overall idea. Here's a more specific scenario as it applies to a Skyhawk.

Let's say you do have to put it down in a least desirable location. You do your best to get it down softly and safely. The doors should be unlatched and open as part of the "Forced Landing" procedure. But, terrain isn't the best and if the airframe buckles enough or the wings twist down and prevent the doors from coming open, you're stuck.

Okay, there may be the chance of kicking out the wind screen. In some cases, the wind screen may just pop out. I saw a scenario up close and personal where this happen on a 152. It's also possible to climb back and kick open the baggage door. It will come open pretty easy whether it's locked or not with enough pressure. In other words, if the latch isn't working properly, no key lock is going to save your belongings, dog or otherwise from falling out. When the springs on a Skyhawk door fail or become weak, you're screwed. Think preventive maintenance.

However, what if you're unconscious? How are emergency services going to get to you? They can't get to the doors well enough to pry their way in. You may have put it between two trees. They are looking at removing the wind screen but what if you became dislodged from the seat belt and were leaning forward over the yoke and glare shield?

An unlocked baggage door would allow that EMS person to enter and work their way up to you. They don't have to spend the time prying it open. They just open it and send in their smallest EMS person.

Maintain the latch properly. And, a dog shouldn't be roaming around a plane and certainly not that far aft. CG issues come to mind.
 
KennyFlys said:
I teach to leave it unlocked during flight. It's not planning for the worst case but a plan for preparedness. Ken nailed the overall idea. Here's a more specific scenario as it applies to a Skyhawk.

Let's say you do have to put it down in a least desirable location. You do your best to get it down softly and safely. The doors should be unlatched and open as part of the "Forced Landing" procedure. But, terrain isn't the best and if the airframe buckles enough or the wings twist down and prevent the doors from coming open, you're stuck.

Okay, there may be the chance of kicking out the wind screen. In some cases, the wind screen may just pop out. I saw a scenario up close and personal where this happen on a 152. It's also possible to climb back and kick open the baggage door. It will come open pretty easy whether it's locked or not with enough pressure. In other words, if the latch isn't working properly, no key lock is going to save your belongings, dog or otherwise from falling out. When the springs on a Skyhawk door fail or become weak, you're screwed. Think preventive maintenance.

However, what if you're unconscious? How are emergency services going to get to you? They can't get to the doors well enough to pry their way in. You may have put it between two trees. They are looking at removing the wind screen but what if you became dislodged from the seat belt and were leaning forward over the yoke and glare shield?

An unlocked baggage door would allow that EMS person to enter and work their way up to you. They don't have to spend the time prying it open. They just open it and send in their smallest EMS person.

Maintain the latch properly. And, a dog shouldn't be roaming around a plane and certainly not that far aft. CG issues come to mind.
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\

seriously? I figure that if EMS could cut apart my STEEL car to get to me in an accident, they should have no problem in an ALUMINUM airplane. Plus you are assuming EMS knows anything about airplanes at all. Of course then you get into the general crashworthiness of a beer can compared to a modern car. doesn't even compare. if the accident is bad enough to knock you out, id bet that you will burn to death before EMS shows up. that is, unless you ran out of gas.
 
KennyFlys said:
I teach to leave it unlocked during flight. It's not planning for the worst case but a plan for preparedness. Ken nailed the overall idea. Here's a more specific scenario as it applies to a Skyhawk.

Let's say you do have to put it down in a least desirable location. You do your best to get it down softly and safely. The doors should be unlatched and open as part of the "Forced Landing" procedure. But, terrain isn't the best and if the airframe buckles enough or the wings twist down and prevent the doors from coming open, you're stuck.

Okay, there may be the chance of kicking out the wind screen. In some cases, the wind screen may just pop out. I saw a scenario up close and personal where this happen on a 152. It's also possible to climb back and kick open the baggage door. It will come open pretty easy whether it's locked or not with enough pressure. In other words, if the latch isn't working properly, no key lock is going to save your belongings, dog or otherwise from falling out. When the springs on a Skyhawk door fail or become weak, you're screwed. Think preventive maintenance.

However, what if you're unconscious? How are emergency services going to get to you? They can't get to the doors well enough to pry their way in. You may have put it between two trees. They are looking at removing the wind screen but what if you became dislodged from the seat belt and were leaning forward over the yoke and glare shield?

An unlocked baggage door would allow that EMS person to enter and work their way up to you. They don't have to spend the time prying it open. They just open it and send in their smallest EMS person.

Maintain the latch properly. And, a dog shouldn't be roaming around a plane and certainly not that far aft. CG issues come to mind.
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I don't mean to completely disrespect you Kenny, but here goes:

You have explained the most retarded, useless scenario possible. Tell me, what if while you're flying, a bird lodges itself in your head, deep enough to cause paralysis, but not enough to kill you and now you can't hold the yoke properly?

And your final point is just as dumb. A dog will not affect CG any more than a person climbing around the cabin will. Don't lecture me on dogs in a plane or CG until you can show that you have a basic understanding of some sort of aerodynamics. To date, you've yet to show that you do.
 
+1, Nick. If EMS can get into my Excursion, they can get into a tin can airplane. Plus, as to dogs in the plane (I have a good sum of experience with this), sometimes they get out of cages and end up roaming around. They don't have any significant effect on CG.

Kent, after reading everyone else's responses, I suppose that I either have massive arthritis and carpel tunnel (I don't), I'm remembering how annoying it was incorrectly (probably part of it), or I just didn't like it, and therefore list it as something I wouldn't want to do (probably most of it). This was close to 2 years ago, so I'm sure my memory is foggy. I just don't think that it's particularly useful to leave it unlocked during flight. When my mom bought her Volvo, the dealer told her one of the reasons they locks didn't automatically lock while driving was so EMS could get to you in a crash. Ok, that's fine. When you're driving through Harlem, however (which we did and I still do frequently), you have other concerns for which having the doors locked by default is a good thing.

A lot of concern is placed on safety. Don't get me wrong, it's good that we're concerned with safety. The problem is when we get so concerned with the perception of safety that we end up looking at every improbable occurrence, and overlook the more probable ones. It IS a safety concern to those on the ground if something falls out of your plane. The relatively high probability of a door popping open during flight to me outweighs the relatively low probability of a crash and then having the door be easier to open, when planes are generally built out of materials that are pretty easy to break into anyway, should one have a necessity to do so.
 
Bonanza - must be locked during flight. There are two very large emergency egress windows right behind the B pillar.
 
tonycondon said:
if the accident is bad enough to knock you out, id bet that you will burn to death before EMS shows up. that is, unless you ran out of gas.
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Sure seems likely, at least from reading a lot of accident reports over the years...


Trapper John
 
SkyHog said:
I don't mean to completely disrespect you Kenny, but here goes:

You have explained the most retarded, useless scenario possible. Tell me, what if while you're flying, a bird lodges itself in your head, deep enough to cause paralysis, but not enough to kill you and now you can't hold the yoke properly?

And your final point is just as dumb. A dog will not affect CG any more than a person climbing around the cabin will. Don't lecture me on dogs in a plane or CG until you can show that you have a basic understanding of some sort of aerodynamics. To date, you've yet to show that you do.
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Will my scenario happen? Not likely. Hopefully, never. But, the whole point is no key lock in a Skyhawk is going to save your dog or anything else you have back there if it hits that door hard enough.

Nick, I don't care how much difference the resulting change is. I don't want weight shifts during flight I cannot control. A dog running loose during flight is not under control.

I understand aerodynamics very well. I teach it frequently and I go into much greater detail than the pathetic King videos I'm forced to sell to students.

Nick, I've never insulted you or your knowledge. Why must you do so? It solves nothing. Is it any wonder why I really have no desire to attend any POA event?
 
KennyFlys said:
Will my scenario happen? Not likely. Hopefully, never. But, the whole point is no key lock in a Skyhawk is going to save your dog or anything else you have back there if it hits that door hard enough.

Nick, I don't care how much difference the resulting change is. I don't want weight shifts during flight I cannot control. A dog running loose during flight is not under control.

I understand aerodynamics very well. I teach it frequently and I go into much greater detail than the pathetic King videos I'm forced to sell to students.

Nick, I've never insulted you or your knowledge. Why must you do so? It solves nothing. Is it any wonder why I really have no desire to attend any POA event?
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It may have come off a bit mean, but I don't understand where you get off saying that a dog "doesn't belong free in a cabin" or what not - a very obvious shot at me saying Piper roams free.

FWIW, when I yawn, I feel a change in weight in small airplanes. I don't avoid yawning either, because its usually a pitch difference of about .05 degrees. When Piper moves from backseat to baggage compartment, I feel even less of a change. The moment change of 65 pounds (or even more) across about 10 inches has to be miniscule.

As to not attending POA events? Meh, I've been to many and I'm a giant dillhole sometimes. Everyone gets along just fine.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
leave it unlocked during flight. When my mom bought her Volvo, the dealer told her one of the reasons they locks didn't automatically lock while driving was so EMS could get to you in a crash. Ok, that's fine. When you're driving through Harlem, however (which we did and I still do frequently), you have other concerns for which having the doors locked by default is a good thing.
...
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NI AGG GRA FALLS! :mad3:

So my f*in Detroit Paranoia Ford which has locked me out with the keys in the ignition only 10 or more times in the 10 years I've owned it is based on Ford thinking that I must be a stupid American not knowing how scary the world is while the Volvo and my Saab assumed I'd have enough sense to hit the lock button myself.

You Mr. Sappy Ford Owner are locked out when:

  • You leave the keys in and let the door close at an attended parking lot
  • You leave the keys in while the car warms up because
    • You live where it gets cold
    • You live where it snows
    • You have been allowing your car to run and warm up while your clear the windows since before you knew how to drive.
    • You wanted to let the car warm up while you covered the plane at at your isolated airport where the nearest human is 3 miles away and it's 20 degrees and the wind is howling. In the hour and a half it takes for AAA to find the airport you nearly suffer hypothermia while you wonder if you should drain Avgas to build a fire.
  • The car battery is dead. As it refuses to start, you leave the key in and jump out muttering.. As soon as you apply a power source the car locks the doors with you outside and your keys inside.

You eventually learn to fully OPEN THE WINDOW no matter how cold it is and that you can't clear an opened window so you can open the door.
 
SkyHog said:
It may have come off a bit mean, but I don't understand where you get off saying that a dog "doesn't belong free in a cabin" or what not - a very obvious shot at me saying Piper roams free.

FWIW, when I yawn, I feel a change in weight in small airplanes. I don't avoid yawning either, because its usually a pitch difference of about .05 degrees. When Piper moves from backseat to baggage compartment, I feel even less of a change. The moment change of 65 pounds (or even more) across about 10 inches has to be miniscule.
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It wasn't shot at you personally but just at the concept. I once flew with a pit bull in back and my biggest concern was how calm this dog was going to be. As it turned out, it was the guy's wife who wouldn't be quiet during an instrument approach in snow and low visibility. The dog was very docile.

Your original post spoke to allowing a dog access to where the baggage door is located. Going from the back seat (FS 74) of a Skyhawk to Baggage A (FS 95) to even crawling into Baggage B (FS 125) will make a change. It's not huge but if it came at the wrong time such as during a round out or worse, attempted recovery from a stall? If you're already loaded near gross and the balance is close, it's an even worse idea.

It's simply not a good idea to allow uncontrollable weight shifts.
 
It would have to be a pretty big dog to make a lot of W&B difference, but point taken.

Personally, I'd rather Rover be secured so he can't get up front and interfere with the controls, and also not be thrown into the back of my head if a sudden stop occurs.


Trapper John
 
The Twinkie's baggage door "serves" as the emergency exit with a latch release even if the door is locked. My question has always been --how in the world I would ever get to it with the "pack lite" luggage I have stored back there while in flight. I can't even see the door, let alone move everything out of the way just to unlatch the door. I would roast alive if I had to egress that way. Make sure the main door is unlatched prior to "firm touchdown." If there is fire, kick out a window.
 
KennyFlys said:
But, terrain isn't the best and if the airframe buckles enough or the wings twist down and prevent the doors from coming open, you're stuck.
Okay, there may be the chance of kicking out the wind screen.
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You're not stuck at all. The windows are not plate steel. Seriously you can put your fist through one. They're nothing to a tennis shoe and leg power - I'd bet a 5 year old wouldn't have a problems kicking one out.

KennyFlys said:
However, what if you're unconscious? How are emergency services going to get to you?
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Why am I having a cartoon image of a fire fighter in full gear trying to get through a 172's baggage door? :rofl:

They can't get to the doors well enough to pry their way in. You may have put it between two trees. They are looking at removing the wind screen but what if you became dislodged from the seat belt and were leaning forward over the yoke and glare shield?
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Worst case scenario they'll go through the back or another side window. Or in the case of a cherokee, they'd simply say 'open sesame' and the entire top of the cabin would magically come off. I was watching the local community college EMS/firefighter class break into a wrecked hummer for a 'victim' in a crash. We're talking cutting torch through hot butter kind of thing - and that was for a bunch of first timers that have never done it before. They could have got into any GA plane I know of with their fingernail files in mere seconds. They're going to arrive on scene and see you in the plane and anything between you and them is not going to slow them down.

If for some off the wall reason they did need to go through the baggage door, a tire iron and 2 seconds is all they need.
 
Kenny, you're taking scenarios that are improbable and not realizing that the jaws of life will eat through any of our planes like we can rip tin foil with our bare hands.

This is not rocket science here. The fact that you teach your students to have the door open could cause them to lose control of the plane when they forget to fly the plane when a door pops open. It seems that just about every pilot I know has had a door pop open on them during flight, in my case it's happened three times. I don't know many pilots who've wrecked their planes.

Frank is right - you can punch these windows out easily. If you don't have the strength to punch them out, you probably don't have the strength to climb back to the cargo door to get out.
 
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