United to lay off 1000 pilots, ground planes

Well, you know...

If there are no airplanes to fly, you sure don't need the pilots. It was inevitable from the time they announced the parking of the airplanes.

FWIW, we aren't the only ones.

Also, FWIW, it is the least fuel efficient fleet we have. But Holy Cow, the whole fleet? And 6 747's to boot? They support our most profitable flying. I don't understand.

Above my pay grade, I guess.
 
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What a great idea. I am going to the bank tomorrow and ask them for a Billion dollars.

My business plan:
Buy a bunch of airplanes and let them sit in the desert.

I guess all you ATP types are scratching your head on this just like the rest of us. What is the thinking here?

--Matt
 
My business plan:
Buy a bunch of airplanes and let them sit in the desert.

Well, for one thing, I think (not 100% sure) that all those planes are already paid for.

I guess all you ATP types are scratching your head on this just like the rest of us. What is the thinking here?

--Matt

Well, if you have a bunch of relatively fuel inefficient airplanes burning a bunch of expensive fuel, and the market appears to be softening, wouldn't you consider parking the most inefficient airplanes? And wouldn't you then realize you have a surplus of pilots that have nothing to do and is costing the company a bunch of money?

As CEO of the company, what would YOU do?

BTW, this is along the lines of devil's advocacy. I can understand parking some of the more inefficient of the inefficient fleet, but the whole fleet? Don't know.

But we are not alone in this. Others are doing the same thing.
 
...

As CEO of the company, what would YOU do?
...

Meet with the compensation committee of the board to work out how many more $M's in bonus you'll get this year as teh reward for this bold cost-cutting move?

Oh sorry, that's what they do, not what they should do.
 
Well, if you have a bunch of relatively fuel inefficient airplanes burning a bunch of expensive fuel, and the market appears to be softening, wouldn't you consider parking the most inefficient airplanes? And wouldn't you then realize you have a surplus of pilots that have nothing to do and is costing the company a bunch of money?

As CEO of the company, what would YOU do?

BTW, this is along the lines of devil's advocacy. I can understand parking some of the more inefficient of the inefficient fleet, but the whole fleet? Don't know.

But we are not alone in this. Others are doing the same thing.

The question is, can they cut those planes, replace with more efficient planes on those same routes (and still hit profitability numbers), and continue reassigning equipment until you have cut the unprofitable routes?

Greg, do your 74's still have a CP/FO/FE?

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
I have to admit to being confused / concerned about the 747s being grounded; I thought that UAL's international services were the crown jewels (so to speak), and that the 747-400 was a fairly efficient bird for such long-haul operations. Is it U's intention to ground them for while, substituting 777's until demand improves?

The last thing I want to see is UAL selling-off valuable international ops for cash; that was PanAm's undoing. I hasten to add, I see no such indication here.

In any event, Greg, I fervently hope none of this materially impacts you; your "Very Senior FO" strategy may serve you well here.
 
I have to admit to being confused / concerned about the 747s being grounded; I thought that UAL's international services were the crown jewels (so to speak),

They are.

and that the 747-400 was a fairly efficient bird for such long-haul operations.

777 is more efficient, but it can't haul the freight as efficiently.

Is it U's intention to ground them for while, substituting 777's until demand improves?

Don't know. No one has said anything yet.

The last thing I want to see is UAL selling-off valuable international ops for cash; that was PanAm's undoing. I hasten to add, I see no such indication here.

Well, that is a definite possible scenario.

In any event, Greg, I fervently hope none of this materially impacts you; your "Very Senior FO" strategy may serve you well here.

Yeah, I think so.
 
This may bet he beginning of the end of the legacy carriers. They're fuel costs are unlikely to go down in the future.
 
This may bet he beginning of the end of the legacy carriers. They're fuel costs are unlikely to go down in the future.

Maybe they could do something really radical and price the product at what it costs plus a profit.

No charge for the advice and I haven't been to a business school. :D
 
Sure, but that will be the end of most people's flying. No one will take their family on a vacation by jet, and I imagine a lot of businesses will have to cut back.
 
Maybe they could do something really radical and price the product at what it costs plus a profit.

No charge for the advice and I haven't been to a business school. :D
Io got jumped on for proposing just that. But I guess that is why I am not CEO.

But then I am the one that marvels at an Chicago to Tokyo air ticket that cost $4400 but if I fly to Tokyo and then catch a 7 hour flight to Singapore the cost is then $3300.
 
Maybe they could do something really radical and price the product at what it costs plus a profit.
Does anyone have any idea what that might be? Just for kicks I looked at the numbers for a 737-700 off this site. It says it seats 138 people. Say each person pays about $100 per hour for their ticket. That would make a round trip ticket DEN-SFO about $450 (I have been paying $200-$300 on average). That means the incoming money for the flight is $13,800/hour with every seat filled. That doesn't sound like nearly enough to me. If fuel cost the airlines $4/gal, and it burns 830 gph that would make the fuel costs alone $3,320/hour. I know this is a very simplistic example and I know I am not considering a lot of things but I was just speculating.
 
This may bet he beginning of the end of the legacy carriers. They're fuel costs are unlikely to go down in the future.

There has been some speculation in a number of places I frequent about UA trying to "thin" out competition within the Star Alliance by each airline giving up routes that are already covered (or could be easily covered) by their partners in the airline, and implement revenue sharing on those overlapping routes.

I wonder who will be first? I hope it's US Airways... man they suck.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
This may bet he beginning of the end of the legacy carriers. They're fuel costs are unlikely to go down in the future.

Neither are anyone else's

Sure, but that will be the end of most people's flying. No one will take their family on a vacation by jet, and I imagine a lot of businesses will have to cut back.

And such is the quandry. If the airlines price the product where they can cover cost and make a little profit, supposedly no one will fly.

BTW, why do you think the low cost guys can do it any better?

Io got jumped on for proposing just that. But I guess that is why I am not CEO.

Wasn't me.
 
Well, being in the business of restructuring large companies, a consultant I highly respect told a client once that you can't cut your way to profitability. If you eliminate the feeder routes flying the regional jets, where will the passengers come from to fly between hubs? I'm shaking my head a little as well. I've heard, but not verified, that the regional jets being flown today can't make money flying full at today's prices. My take is that you will see frequency of flights go down and cost go up. If you have 10 flights a day currently flying half full at a ticket price of $x, you could probably fill one plane a day at 2 x $x. However, if they double prices and reduce frequency driving starts becoming more attractive, even at today's prices.

What we need is a national priority on high speed, electricity powered trains. If we could decide on building the interstate network of highways, why not trains?
 
If we could decide on building the interstate network of highways, why not trains?
The interstate highway system was started in the 1950s when it was easier to acquire land for such a thing. The political, environmental and social climate is much different now. At least that's the way I see it.
 
As my mother says : "if they jumped off a cliff ,would you? Do your own thing.":D

I guess I am just too sensitive to all of this crap going on, seemings as my livelihood depends on it. But I am not sure what your point is.
 
I guess I am worried about your livelihood, too, Greg, as I am in a daze.
 
Well, I think the next six months to a year will answer a lot of questions.
 
Well, I think the next six months to a year will answer a lot of questions.
I thought the answer had been given to questions on growth and survival after the huge shortage a couple years ago... after the huge number furloughed.... after substantial growth...

I get the impression there's a trend here.
 
I can't understand why the airlines can't just charge the actual cost of the ticket. To sell a product below what you pay for it is just dumb. I'm not sure how they made any money when the airlines were regulated, but it certainly seems they were a whole lot more stable. Sure, that ticket from Boston to Buffalo might cost you $800, but not having to drive 10 hours would be worth it. And if you cut all the regional links, will people drive 10 hours to catch a cross country flight?
And yeah, how DO the discount airlines make money?
 
I can't understand why the airlines can't just charge the actual cost of the ticket. To sell a product below what you pay for it is just dumb.

Habit? Market share? The fear that, if we raise fares, the other guy won't, we'll alienate the passenger base and lose those customers forever?

I'm not sure how they made any money when the airlines were regulated, but it certainly seems they were a whole lot more stable.

Airfares were profoundly higher, on an inflation-adjusted basis, than they are now. Only the wealthy could fly, and the range of flight choices was a fraction of what they are today.

Sure, that ticket from Boston to Buffalo might cost you $800, but not having to drive 10 hours would be worth it. And if you cut all the regional links, will people drive 10 hours to catch a cross country flight?

Good question, one we may see the answer to more and more. Used to, you had to take the Greyhound from smaller cities. Maybe you will again (air travel is not a constitutional right).

And yeah, how DO the discount airlines make money?

Not many do; most have failed. Skybus, Vanguard, ATA, Midway...

...the airlines making money today (principally, Southwest, also Airtran and (perhaps) JetBlue) are not "discount" airlines, although they are often identified under the partially-descriptive term, Low Cost Carrier (LCC). "Low Cost" means that their cost of providing the service, per passenger, is lower than many carriers. They do this through more efficient use of resources, more productive people.
 
Well, I think the next six months to a year will answer a lot of questions.

Well, I hope you're still around. I've got a sabbatical coming up next summer and my wife wants to take a round the world trip. Your 200,000 mile round the world ticket has her attention, and I've got almost 500,000 miles banked. She'd be really disappointed if UA wasn't there next June. Even worse if something happened while we were somewhere along the trip. :no:

"sabbatical" - An Intel benefit (US employees) where you get 8 weeks off with pay every 7 years to do whatever you want. And this will be my second one. We didn't go anywhere last time, as my wife is quick to note. However, I got my high performance and complex endorsements, so I had a good time. :yes:
 
Habit? Market share? The fear that, if we raise fares, the other guy won't,

All seemingly true.

we'll alienate the passenger base and lose those customers forever?

Until the next cheap fare comes along, unfortunately. Or maybe fortunately. I don't think there is much brand loyalty these days.

Good question, one we may see the answer to more and more. Used to, you had to take the Greyhound from smaller cities. Maybe you will again (air travel is not a constitutional right).

One of the comments a co worker of mine used to say was that these fares tended to empty the bus terminals. Kind of the beginning of the end as far as service went. In order to provide the service at a price point they could afford, corners had to be cut on the amenities.

Not many do; most have failed. Skybus, Vanguard, ATA, Midway...

Key words here. I am glad someone besides me realized this. The upstarts come and go but it is the legacies that have survived. But they are getting whittled down by the upstarts that are providing service at a price point that even they cannot sustain.

"Low Cost" means that their cost of providing the service, per passenger, is lower than many carriers. They do this through more efficient use of resources, more productive people.

They also do this by having new equipment that don't have much maintenance issues. Just wait until they start having to do heavy maintenance.

Also they don't typically have retirement costs to deal with. Good for the company, good for the passengers, not so hot for the employees.
 
Then there's this in today's paper.

Denver Post said:
United Airlines launched a "firecracker" fare sale this weekend targeting local travelers looking for a last-minute getaway around the July 4th holiday.

I'm sure that's a good way to fill seats that would've otherwise been empty, but it may also be an indication that they are having trouble filling seats at the increased fare level.
 
I can't understand why the airlines can't just charge the actual cost of the ticket. To sell a product below what you pay for it is just dumb. I'm not sure how they made any money when the airlines were regulated, but it certainly seems they were a whole lot more stable. Sure, that ticket from Boston to Buffalo might cost you $800, but not having to drive 10 hours would be worth it. And if you cut all the regional links, will people drive 10 hours to catch a cross country flight?
And yeah, how DO the discount airlines make money?

I always wondered about that too. Aloha went bankrupt citing $20 inter-island fares from competing airlines. I can't see $20 even paying for taxiing fuel. How is that possible?

Regarding the 10-hour drive from Boston to Buffalo, I don't think airlines will save you much time either. You have to include airport commutes, check-in times, and if there is a layover, then it will easily exceed the 10-hours. If you can get some work done during those 10 hours, that would be a different matter, but that is not the case either when you are standing on the TSA line.
 
Well, I think the next six months to a year will answer a lot of questions.

GREG! I had an inspiration!

You all could apply for the TSA gate agent jobs! That way, you can join the huge government team that will be there to prevent passengers who aren't flying from getting on the jets that aren't flying with the pilots that aren't flying...with TOTAL JOB SECURITY!

PERFECTION! :D

(Well, OK, maybe the pilots are too motivated, intelligent, capable and functional to qualify for those TSA jobs. :rolleyes:)
 
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GREG! I had an inspiration!

You all could apply for the TSA gate agent jobs! That way, you can join the huge government team that will be there to prevent passengers who aren't flying from getting on the jets that aren't flying with the pilots that aren't flying...with TOTAL JOB SECURITY!

PERFECTION! :D

Gee, Mike. You sure you don't work for the government?;)
 
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GREG! I had an inspiration!

You all could apply for the TSA gate agent jobs! That way, you can join the huge government team that will be there to prevent passengers who aren't flying from getting on the jets that aren't flying with the pilots that aren't flying...with TOTAL JOB SECURITY!

PERFECTION! :D

(Well, OK, maybe the pilots are too motivated, intelligent, capable and functional to qualify for those TSA jobs. :rolleyes:)
With ideas like that you should run for Congress.

Or is that considered a personal attack according to the RoC?? ;)
 
Not many do; most have failed. Skybus, Vanguard, ATA, Midway...

...the airlines making money today (principally, Southwest, also Airtran and (perhaps) JetBlue) are not "discount" airlines, although they are often identified under the partially-descriptive term, Low Cost Carrier (LCC). "Low Cost" means that their cost of providing the service, per passenger, is lower than many carriers. They do this through more efficient use of resources, more productive people.

LCC business models are generally more efficient because they offer less services. I'm not talking peanuts, meals, or inflight entertainment, I'm talking service to different contintinents. The LCCs stick with a one or two type aircraft fleet that is geared to the domestic or Canada/Mexico/Carribean markets only. Operating a global airline requires a larger mix of types that will drive up the cost. Keeping aircraft ready for ETOPS and CAT III operations is also something most LCCs don't have to worry about.

Also try to find more than one (or any) Red Carpet/ Admiral club or LCC equivalent at any given hub.

As far as more productive people go, a UAL 747 or a DAL 777 captain is generating more than twice the ASMs that a SWA or Airtran 737 captain for about the same or even less money. The only "more productive" people at the LCCs seem to be in the management ranks where there are generally fewer VPs that actually seem to generate an original thought once in a while and understand leadership.
 
Well, being in the business of restructuring large companies, a consultant I highly respect told a client once that you can't cut your way to profitability. If you eliminate the feeder routes flying the regional jets, where will the passengers come from to fly between hubs? I'm shaking my head a little as well. I've heard, but not verified, that the regional jets being flown today can't make money flying full at today's prices. My take is that you will see frequency of flights go down and cost go up. If you have 10 flights a day currently flying half full at a ticket price of $x, you could probably fill one plane a day at 2 x $x. However, if they double prices and reduce frequency driving starts becoming more attractive, even at today's prices.

What we need is a national priority on high speed, electricity powered trains. If we could decide on building the interstate network of highways, why not trains?

You're entirely correct. I've done a lot of work on building and rebuilding profitability within companies. You can't cut to prosperity, but you can cut to greater efficiency. True profitablity comes from increased revenues, but if your efficiency/costs are out of line with competitors then you won't be able to sustain the corporation. In other words, you need to be focused on both (but NOT penny-wise, pound-foolish).

Cutting airline capacity and routes accomplishes two things: it saves money because the assets are used more efficiently (operating cost goes down, ROC goes up) and lower capacity will drive prices higher assuming that demand remains the same.... but one needs to keep in mind that standard economic theory indicates that demand and pricing have an inverse relationship.

Long haul routes tend to offer the best opportunities to maintain demand (or less reduction in demand) because there are fewer alternatives. Practically speaking, it's next to impossible to drive coast-coast for a business meeting but there are practical alternatives on a 250 mile route (say, DC-NYC).

The math on DC-NYC works like this: DL or US shuttle: $800 weekday round trip (DCA-LGA, IAD-LGA) - it's lower but much less convenient on B6 IAD-JFK. $300-$400 depending on when you book for the Acela higher-speed train (2:45 each way to Midtown, day trip easy, compared to 2:30-2:45 door-door via the shuttle). About $200 on the regional train. Between $20 and $100 on Megabus. And about $250 using the IRS allowable mileage reimbursment for a car ($67.50 for fuel alone at 30 MPG, plus a LOT for tolls).

Habit? Market share? The fear that, if we raise fares, the other guy won't, we'll alienate the passenger base and lose those customers forever?

Price driven. Airlines have made themselves into a commodity. Businesses and tourists view them as a commodity. In a commodity situation, each participant has little pricing power. Further, the demand curve for the tourist/very price sensitive consumer is much steeper than it is for most business travelers, meaning there is a disproportionate drop in seat demand as the price goes up and the economy sours. Think about the impact on a family of four for a $50 increase in cost on tickets that, in the past, cost $150 per person.... that may be enough to push the family of four into a car.

Airfares were profoundly higher, on an inflation-adjusted basis, than they are now. Only the wealthy could fly, and the range of flight choices was a fraction of what they are today.

IOW, the effects of a deregulated environment. The other effect is that such a structure rewards those that gain efficiencies in their cost structures, and penalizes those that have ineffecient structures.

Good question, one we may see the answer to more and more. Used to, you had to take the Greyhound from smaller cities. Maybe you will again (air travel is not a constitutional right).

Already happening in many cases. And more passengers are deciding that the hassles of air travel are not worth the extra cost & time. It really makes no sense to fly from DC-Richmond, for example.... nor does it make sense to drive to BWI to save $50 on an airline fare.

Not many do; most have failed. Skybus, Vanguard, ATA, Midway...

But that was also true in the old days.... People Express went under in the early days of dereg. New York Air went down. Some of the legacies that couldn't get efficiencies in the early days also went down: Pan Am, Eastern, Braniff.....

...the airlines making money today (principally, Southwest, also Airtran and (perhaps) JetBlue) are not "discount" airlines, although they are often identified under the partially-descriptive term, Low Cost Carrier (LCC). "Low Cost" means that their cost of providing the service, per passenger, is lower than many carriers. They do this through more efficient use of resources, more productive people.

These never would have existed - and there would have been no incentive to operate efficiently - under the old regulatory structure. No question that conversion is hard.... witness the same thing happening in power these days. Telcos have done better (principally due to innovations like wireless and the proliferation of cable services), but the larger companies are seeing their legacy landline business fade away....
 
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