Unexpected Ramp Fees

WillFly4Food said:
I understand that FBOs are private businesses, and like all businesses have to make ends meet. I get that. What I don’t get is why they don’t simply charge more for fuel, maintenance, instructing, hangar management, or whatever. Ramp fees? Imagine pulling-in to a Chevron to fill your car and being told you didn’t buy enough fuel, so there’s this extra fee you have to pay. Right. When I’m traveling by GA, I generally do call ahead to discuss parking, cars, or whatever else may be needed, and yes, I inquire about ramp fees. It seems like about half the time I’m told wrong info, whether it’s the amount of fuel to purchase to get a fee waiver, or unexplained fees for overnights or something like that. And to be honest, I feel for the dispatch/reception staff that have to deal with the situation, I’m sure they’re catching heat from some of the customers. So again, wouldn’t it be simpler to just increase the cost of fuel?
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I called ahead to each of the FBOs at an airport and found one FBO charged $0.21 less per gallon, but was farther away from the terminal restaurant I was thinking of using. After hanging up with the more expensive, I saw that landing fees were mentioned in the Service remarks so called back to find out no landing fees for singles. I asked about parking fees for a visit of no more than 2 hrs. None was the reply. I opted for the more expensive FBO since it was more convenient.
When I arrived and was settling up, the FBO representative said I was 1 tenth of a gallon short of waiving the fees, but since I topped off, she was waiving the fees. I said nothing about the prior misinformation I had received since no harm, no foul. But really, you must jot down who told you what when making your do diligence calls beforehand.
 
I use AOPA's site to look up fees. For example at Frederick, MD (KFDK): https://aopa.org/destinations/airports/kfdk. From that page, find the FBO link and click on it, then about halfway down is "Fee Details". Select your aircraft size and it will give you the fees that the FBO supplied to AOPA.
 
Rushie said:
... It’s the inconsistency that makes ramp fees seem like a problem.
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And the fact that you're paying the FBO for the privilege of parking on a ramp that was almost certainly paid for by federal taxes in the first place. Kinda like being charged by the local yokels to use their segment of the federal highway system. How many times do I have to pay for it, and why is the money going to YOU?
 
If you think the US or Interstate highways are 100% funded by federal money, your medical is in jeopardy.
 
WillFly4Food said:
Ramp fees? Imagine pulling-in to a Chevron to fill your car and being told you didn’t buy enough fuel, so there’s this extra fee you have to pay.
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If you wanted to leave your car at the Chevron station overnight, they might well charge a fee. Nobody drives to a gas station just to leave their car there, but many garages charge by the day if you leave your car there. Happened to me years ago when I had car trouble on the highway and limped to a gas station near the exit, I had to pay for a couple of days storage until I could get the car fixed and out of there.

But I agree, "ramp fees" are unreasonable, unless they're sending out a crew to marshal your Learjet in and roll out the red carpet... those are the kind of airports I avoid. But a parking fee if you stay more than an hour or two, that's reasonable, especially at airports on the water that get lots of people flying in for a short time (like 1B2 and 42B in my area).
 
Dana said:
If you wanted to leave your car at the Chevron station overnight, they might well charge a fee. Nobody drives to a gas station just to leave their car there, but many garages charge by the day if you leave your car there. Happened to me years ago when I had car trouble on the highway and limped to a gas station near the exit, I had to pay for a couple of days storage until I could get the car fixed and out of there.
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I think this is an example of a fair practice, having to pay a parking fee for extended or overnight parking. Carrying my car analogy further, I have to admit that parking in a city is seldom done for free. But a fee to get on the ramp for fuel, drop off or pick someone up, etc, is hard for me to reconcile with.
 
thito01 said:
Story told my by my CFI a few months ago. One of his rated students took his aircraft to KLAL and dropped it off in front of one of the KLAL maintenance facilities after hours, as arranged with the A&P. The next morning, the A&P called and asked why he did not drop off the plane because it was not in front of the maintenance facility. They eventually found that the plane had been towed (without authorization) over to the FBO ramp and an overnight parking fee had been assessed. While the maintenance facility resolved the fee issue, it was recommended that I only land at KLAL in an emergency. (I am new to the area and this was during a discussion about KLAL having the nearest ILS to my new airport.)
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My instructor also relayed a story to me regarding either KOCF or KGNV. A student was on their cross country and needed to stop in for a bathroom break. They taxied over to the FBO, informed the desk they were a student and asked if they could stop in to use the restroom. When they came out they had a bill for parking waiting for them. The school owner called them up and asked them about it as they had provided the same courtesy to students flying from that airport. I think it worked itself out.
 
AOPA has no answers. They tried getting inroads with Signature years ago, but it lasted less than a year. Even when AOPA does get the data, they manage to screw it up with great regularity (even on basic stuff like autogas availability).

There isn't any obligation nor even incentive for FBOs to disclose it to the various directories.
 
I have no issue with FBOs wanting to ensure they get at least some revenue from each aircraft that uses their facility. Whether it's a fuel sale or a ramp fee, that's fine. What's not fine with me is the other "extra" (made-up) fees you get charged that aren't ever waived with fuel purchase. Like the fake "Security" fee or the places that have a separate "Ramp" fee and a "facility fee," (only one of which is usually waived with fuel) plus an overnight tie-down or hangar fee. The icing on the cake is the fact that many of the FBOs with these types of fees (particularly the piston airplane unfriendly ones like Signature and Atlantic) actively try to ensure the fees aren't published, so you're just surprised when you get there. When they're afraid of transparency...
 
Considering the variance of pricing between FBOs even on the same field its obvious why transparency isn't in their best interest. I mean you see it in fuel prices as those become more and more visible. I get that some FBOs only want jet traffic. I'm not a proponent of government regulation of business though so forcing them to do something at the end of Uncle Sam's regulatory gun isn't a solution. Based on some of the efforts to crowd source the data it also appears only a small subset of GA pilots care to even track the info. Obviously when you get into the turbine and jet world the costs are ignored because of the value of convenience and time. Maybe its just time to write a cheap pilots guide.
 
Star Keeper said:
I'm not a proponent of government regulation of business though so forcing them to do something at the end of Uncle Sam's regulatory gun isn't a solution.
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I generally agree with this, except in this instance these are private businesses utilizing publicly-funded airports to earn a profit. They're taking advantage of runways, taxiways, etc. that Uncle Sam paid for. I have no issue with, and fully support, the government forcing folks who want to do business in that situation to be transparent, charge reasonable fees, etc. The main problem is the weird intersection of FAA, local governments and the FBOs. The FAA has somewhat limited, and somewhat vague, say in what happens. The FAA sets some pretty broad-strokes rules, and leaves it to the local governments who actually own the airport to negotiation the specific terms. Most local governments have figured out they can generate a lot of revenue in the way of fuel flowage fees, rent and other fees from the FBOs, so their interest sways away from protecting the userbase and towards protecting the local government's revenue stream...so forcing transparency (or any other reasonableness-type terms) on the FBOs via the lease agreements becomes lost in the mix.
 
Star Keeper said:
Considering the variance of pricing between FBOs even on the same field its obvious why transparency isn't in their best interest. I mean you see it in fuel prices as those become more and more visible. I get that some FBOs only want jet traffic. I'm not a proponent of government regulation of business though so forcing them to do something at the end of Uncle Sam's regulatory gun isn't a solution.
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FBO's (particularly ones at large airports) are government selected monopolies. There is no reason they shouldn't be held to a reasonable level of transparency, such as publishing and maintaining a fee list. If you can give a fee list to the guy/gal working the desk, you can publish it on your website. Ain't hard.
 
There are two fuel stations just north of Orlando International that for years have charged $3-$4 dollars higher than others in the area. When most stations are $3, they would be $6. The only place the fuel price was disclosed was on the physical pump. Their whole plan was to suck in the rental car refills were renters looked for the closest place to fill before returning their car. This went on for 10+ years. Finally, the county passed a new law that said that fuel prices must be clearly displayed on a signage viewable from the road. (There were size requirements too.)
Now, the same stations still charge way higher than others, but at least there is some external warning before someone pulls in.
While I also don't like government regs, this was long needed. These FBOs are on government funded airports, so a transparency should be in order.
 
Years ago I kept my plane at IAD. Technically, I owed $8 every time I landed, but due to a misunderstanding, I never actually got assessed the fee. Going to BWI on business one day should have been a short fun air trip. BWI wanted an $10 landing fee (OK), plus the state wants $40 if you park longer than four hours (OK, I guess). Then Signature (the only game in town there) wanted over $50 unless I could buy 40 gallons or something of their (overpriced) fuel. Unfortunately, there's no way I could take on that much fuel after then short flight between those two fields. I ended up driving.
 
bradg33 said:
I generally agree with this, except in this instance these are private businesses utilizing publicly-funded airports to earn a profit. They're taking advantage of runways, taxiways, etc. that Uncle Sam paid for. I have no issue with, and fully support, the government forcing folks who want to do business in that situation to be transparent, charge reasonable fees, etc. The main problem is the weird intersection of FAA, local governments and the FBOs. The FAA has somewhat limited, and somewhat vague, say in what happens. The FAA sets some pretty broad-strokes rules, and leaves it to the local governments who actually own the airport to negotiation the specific terms. Most local governments have figured out they can generate a lot of revenue in the way of fuel flowage fees, rent and other fees from the FBOs, so their interest sways away from protecting the userbase and towards protecting the local government's revenue stream...so forcing transparency (or any other reasonableness-type terms) on the FBOs via the lease agreements becomes lost in the mix.
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It may be that we simply need to fight the local governments on this issue. Certainly more change can be implemented there. Unfortunately I'm way too distracted with this new flying thing.

Being fairly new I'm not familiar with AOPA and not a member of them. Who do they typically get in bed with? The GA pilots, the manufacturers, the Facilities, or the regulators?
 
thito01 said:
There are two fuel stations just north of Orlando International that for years have charged $3-$4 dollars higher than others in the area. When most stations are $3, they would be $6. The only place the fuel price was disclosed was on the physical pump. Their whole plan was to suck in the rental car refills were renters looked for the closest place to fill before returning their car. This went on for 10+ years. Finally, the county passed a new law that said that fuel prices must be clearly displayed on a signage viewable from the road. (There were size requirements too.)
Now, the same stations still charge way higher than others, but at least there is some external warning before someone pulls in.
While I also don't like government regs, this was long needed. These FBOs are on government funded airports, so a transparency should be in order.
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I know which stations you are talking about. And the Wawa just past them is making a killing at regular prices because of them.
 
kyleb said:
And the fact that you're paying the FBO for the privilege of parking on a ramp that was almost certainly paid for by federal taxes in the first place. Kinda like being charged by the local yokels to use their segment of the federal highway system. How many times do I have to pay for it, and why is the money going to YOU?
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No, you are paying rent for tying down on a ramp that they are renting from the owner of the airport. It is not like the examples you post above.
 
Ghery said:
No, you are paying rent for tying down on a ramp that they are renting from the owner of the airport. It is not like the examples you post above.
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The AIP pays for 90-95% of airport improvements at most GA airports. Those are federal funds. It chafes me to pay for something I've already paid for.
 
kyleb said:
The AIP pays for 90-95% of airport improvements at most GA airports. Those are federal funds. It chafes me to pay for something I've already paid for.
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This is very true and is also the reason why most publicly funded airports *should* have a free public parking area, even if it is way at the end of the airport and not convenient, or without ropes in place, etc.
 
I call ahead of time as well but I’ve found friendliness and “making a friend” with those at the front desk gets a lot of fees amended/removed. I don’t want to name airports, but some of the hated locations and National brands’ staff have waived hundreds for me. I had $177 in fees waived with no fuel purchased a few months back at a location regularly complained about on this board. Be nice, tell a joke or two and manage your attitude. Ask for a discount as well. I assume they have the authority to amend, but for their sake won’t name names.
 
Lindberg said:
I don't understand why I'm expected to do this much legwork to use a public resource. That's not how if works anywhere else.

Imagine if toll roads didn't have any signs or advanced warning and you just got a bill in the mail weeks later. "Sorry, you should have done your research before you drove on that road that looks like every other road," is what no one would say.

What if you went to the public library, but when you went back to your car, the librarian stopped you and said you have to pay $50 for parking before you leave--despite the lack of any signs, warning, or access controls. No one would tolerate that.

So why do we tolerate it at airports? At the very least, if you're going to charge me to use a public resource, the onus should be on you to inform me of the charge before I incur it.
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Because most pilots have a little extra cash compared to those people going to the public library. So there are the surprise fees in an attempt to get a few extra customers and the extra fees. Those who are up front about fees get smart customers who use what’s free and I don’t know how FBO’s survive given high wages and costs of keeping a FBO running.

Regards to the toll roads and Google maps, I’ve gotten on plenty of toll roads by mistake and even had to turn away and get a second fee charged, I get so annoyed that those no U turn points look awfully desirable to avoid a second toll fee and 5-10 miles of wasted fuel.

Having said all that - I definitely agree with you, public service and government should be for the people and in the US it is probably one of the worst countries I’ve seen in terms of government abuse, misuse and failure to provide reasonable affordable services to its people. Very sad but that’s America, however there are not a whole lot of GA friendly countries either.
 
bradg33 said:
I have no issue with FBOs wanting to ensure they get at least some revenue from each aircraft that uses their facility. Whether it's a fuel sale or a ramp fee, that's fine. What's not fine with me is the other "extra" (made-up) fees you get charged that aren't ever waived with fuel purchase. Like the fake "Security" fee or the places that have a separate "Ramp" fee and a "facility fee," (only one of which is usually waived with fuel) plus an overnight tie-down or hangar fee. The icing on the cake is the fact that many of the FBOs with these types of fees (particularly the piston airplane unfriendly ones like Signature and Atlantic) actively try to ensure the fees aren't published, so you're just surprised when you get there. When they're afraid of transparency...
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The ramp, facility, tie down and security fee seem rather transparent to me. Each is a separate FBO function and the FBO can waive each fee for as appropriate. The FBO is providing a ramp security function on every arrival and departure and that fee is seldom waived.

I have never found Signature FBO unfriendly to piston types and you obviously have never been to Key West where Signature is handling a 75% pistons on a very busy crowded ramp.
 
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But the real problem is not that they may be legitimized in some way, but that these sneaky FBOs are not transparent. Even after one calls the FBOs, you really have to probe and ask again about any other fees that could exist for your arrival, and sometimes you still don’t get the full story. That is why I advise taking names to contest the surprises. Look, if you truly got the full story, you would be free to pick an FBO with what you consider reasonable, or even choose a different airport with different compromises.
 
Every time I fly to a large airport I call ahead. I've had to pay a number of fees, every last one of them has been well worth it. The last two big FBOs hosted largish tortoises, I kid you not. I think one of them topped 30 pounds. Moreover, the fees I pay at an FBO are laughable compared to the funds I expend to keep my aircraft flying. I just cannot be bothered.
 
steingar said:
Every time I fly to a large airport I call ahead. I've had to pay a number of fees, every last one of them has been well worth it. The last two big FBOs hosted largish tortoises, I kid you not. I think one of them topped 30 pounds. Moreover, the fees I pay at an FBO are laughable compared to the funds I expend to keep my aircraft flying. I just cannot be bothered.
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Last time I went into SDF, the fees for a 2 night stay ran me more than my fuel for the trip - none waived. How does paying the equivalent of $12/gallon sound to you for every trip? What would that do to your flying budget?
 
EdFred said:
Last time I went into SDF, the fees for a 2 night stay ran me more than my fuel for the trip - none waived. How does paying the equivalent of $12/gallon sound to you for every trip? What would that do to your flying budget?
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Were fees so high they dwarf my fuel I'd go elsewhere. The fees I paid weren't so bad. The point is I called ahead and knew what they were.
 
steingar said:
Were fees so high they dwarf my fuel I'd go elsewhere. The fees I paid weren't so bad. The point is I called ahead and knew what they were.
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Yeah, so did I. They changed the fees between the time I called and the time I arrived as I had just been there a couple weeks prior, and sometime there is no option to go elsewhere. In this case, the next time I went into LOU. But I didn't expect a tripling of fees and no waive over a couple week period.
 
I'm not an attorney, but I don't understand how a contract can exist before one of the parties to the contract has been informed of its terms.
 
How many realize that ramp fees were virtually unknown until the arrival of bizjets except at a few huge, primarily airline airports? I don't need a fancy FBO I just want someplace to park and let off or pickup pax without a fee or to be able to park for a day visit without a fee. And FBOs survived for years without ramp fees.
 
Snowmass said:
How many realize that ramp fees were virtually unknown until the arrival of bizjets except at a few huge, primarily airline airports? I don't need a fancy FBO I just want someplace to park and let off or pickup pax without a fee or to be able to park for a day visit without a fee. And FBOs survived for years without ramp fees.
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First ramp fee I was every charged was over 20 years ago.
 
Snowmass said:
How many realize that ramp fees were virtually unknown until the arrival of bizjets except at a few huge, primarily airline airports? I don't need a fancy FBO I just want someplace to park and let off or pickup pax without a fee or to be able to park for a day visit without a fee. And FBOs survived for years without ramp fees.
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Biz jets came out in the 60's and I started flying them in the mid 80's. I do not remember any FBO fees, in the US, until Signature showed up. In the 80's and 90's, I flew into LGA and DCA a lot and remember landing and parking fees from the airport but not the FBO but we were usually buying around 1000 gallons. First time I remember paying a fee to the FBO was when we went to Europe in the late 80's.
 
3393RP said:
Now that I've been elected as the official POA Grammar and Writing Style Judge, future episodes will feature:

I seen it, or when to properly use seen and saw as past tense verbs

The difference between lose and loose, and when to use them

Vwa-Lah, Wa-Lah, Wah Lah, Walla: The Many Misspellings of Voilà

:D
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Will there be an audience participation segment, where we can axe you questions?
 
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