UND Plane down in ND - 1 fatality

dtuuri said:
I'm wondering if it's possible being raised between a couple of hammers convinced himself he was a nail? (so to speak.)
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I think that is completely beside the point. He was upset enough to end his life; clearly he was ill. Whatever the style of treatment he needed, he was afraid to seek it out because of the draconian FAA policies/rules.

As for people being unaware - you don't have to dig deep to learn this is a very common occurrence.

t3chiman said:
If trained professionals observing him every day for 18 years missed it, it's not clear that an FAA-inspired program would do any better. I think this tragedy is an outlier, and the guy was a future Germanwings disaster.
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I respectfully disagree. The kid ended his own life, without harming (physically) anyone other than his plane. It seems particularly cruel to me to imbue the guy with future mass-murderer tendencies because he was filled with despair.

As I wrote above, it only takes a cursory review of suicide/depression literature to understand this is not at all unusual, and not at all limited to aviation.

Nobody knows what could have or might have happened, but if the guy took the time to write (I paraphrase) "I was afraid to seek help because I'd lose my dream of being a pilot" I think we owe him at least the respect of believing him. I'm not a lawyer but a suicide note seems pretty close to a deathbed confession, which I believe (?) can be admissible evidence.
 
dtuuri said:
Hmmm...
"His parents said not one person had any indication their son was depressed, including them. They are physicians with training in psychiatry."​
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Yeah, that kind of made me wonder as well.

Then again, seems like suicidal folks can appear to be very happy right before they kill themselves.
 
The German Wings pilot did the same thing, but murdered a bunch of people who had nothing to do with his problems. Hate to say it, but thankfully he only killed himself. Imagine if he did that on a regional jet.
 
Almost any way you look at it the FAA's approach to mental illness is terrible. Don't ask don't tell. FFS.

From a statistical perspective, what are the odds that a group of people who haven't been diagnosed by the age of (insert average age of PPL attainment) are likely to have no further diagnosis above the rate of (number of licenses revoked/total licenses outstanding) for the rest of their lives? It's preposterous.

Pilots have divorces, illness in their families, tragedies of all kinds, as well as the usual assortment of childhood trauma that the rest of the human race endures... and magically they have a (I'm speculating, but it's educated) a diagnosis rate orders of magnitude lower than the rest of the general population?

I mean, I know we're Better than Everyone™ but are we that much better?
 
Unit74 said:
The German Wings pilot did the same thing, but murdered a bunch of people who had nothing to do with his problems. Hate to say it, but thankfully he only killed himself. Imagine if he did that on a regional jet.
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Well I would give the kid the benefit of the doubt that he didn't intend to harm anyone else and was in a totally separate league than the GW pilot. He crashed into a corn field hurting no one. If he wanted to kill other people he could have gone the way of school shooters. Just because they both killed themselves via airplane doesn't make them the same person.
 
I absolutely agree. Life is difficult for everyone at some point. Some people cope better than others, some people need a little extra help from a trained professional to make it through whatever life threw at them. How can anyone in the FAA go on the record and say this is the best we can do. There are very limited options. Lie to us which is a felony and punishable by all sorts of nasty things. Self medicate which is also a felony and punishable by all sorts of nasty things, fly without treatment of any kind, or the least attractive option see a doctor and be prepared for your flying career to be at the very least interrupted for probably a year and at worst ended. And they wonder why people lie. This isnt the 1800’s where we treat illness with leeches and literally blowing smoke up your backside. We have modern techniques and medications that can help a lot of people. I agree there are many people that should not fly but there are also many that are flying with issues that could be easily and safely treated. I just can’t believe the FAA medical process is so cumbersome and antiquated. And they know it or we wouldn’t have basic med or sport pilot.
 
TRC1969 said:
I absolutely agree. Life is difficult for everyone at some point. Some people cope better than others, some people need a little extra help from a trained professional to make it through whatever life threw at them. How can anyone in the FAA go on the record and say this is the best we can do. There are very limited options. Lie to us which is a felony and punishable by all sorts of nasty things. Self medicate which is also a felony and punishable by all sorts of nasty things, fly without treatment of any kind, or the least attractive option see a doctor and be prepared for your flying career to be at the very least interrupted for probably a year and at worst ended. And they wonder why people lie. This isnt the 1800’s where we treat illness with leeches and literally blowing smoke up your backside. We have modern techniques and medications that can help a lot of people. I agree there are many people that should not fly but there are also many that are flying with issues that could be easily and safely treated. I just can’t believe the FAA medical process is so cumbersome and antiquated. And they know it or we wouldn’t have basic med or sport pilot.
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And when, not if people go off their meds you get Andreas Lubitz. Would you want to be flown around by someone who previously had suicidal tendencies? But don't worry, they're on meds. Being depressed is different than being suicidal. It's different than being a drunkard. This is probably a topic for Dr. Bruce, and I'd love to hear what he thinks of what the parents are trying to do. Life puts speedbumps in the road, you deal with it. There was probably a middle ground for the young man personally to satisfy his urge to fly and make a living in the aviation industry rather than this sad outcome. Is the FAA rigid? Yep. But the kid was as well. I know I'm callous and would like to say my condolences go out to his friends and family.
 
Hengelo said:
… "I was afraid to seek help because I'd lose my dream of being a pilot"...
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It’d be real interesting to understand what factors may have been causal.

How were his grades? How well was he performing in the program? Was a scholarship or academic continuation in jeopardy? Was performance bias an issue? Problems with the girlfriend (note: we had an ideating student in the pipeline while I was a training commander…root cause was the girlfriend associated with all the firsts said goodbye; the student was provided appropriate resources and treatment and eventually was admin separated from the military). Was frat life a factor? Lots of things to consider, including things going way back in the kid’s life.
 
I don't think you're callous, but I do think you're making weak/uninformed arguments. Not all treatment involves "meds" and not all "meds" are for life. You don't wear a cast on a broken limb for the rest of your life, and that's a good analogy.

As for "life puts speedbumps... you deal with it" I think that's been widely enough debunked that we can put it to rest here, unless by "Deal with it" you mean "seek treatment."
 
TCABM said:
It’d be real interesting to understand what factors may have been causal.

How were his grades? How well was he performing in the program? Was a scholarship or academic continuation in jeopardy? Was performance bias an issue? Problems with the girlfriend (note: we had an ideating student in the pipeline while I was a training commander…root cause was the girlfriend associated with all the firsts said goodbye; the student was provided appropriate resources and treatment and eventually was admin separated from the military). Was frat life a factor? Lots of things to consider, including things going way back in the kid’s life.
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Why not just take it as his notes were written, because what, now we're going to second guess his written word??
 
There seems to be a misconception that there are no depressed commercial pilots currently flying. They just receive their treatment without involvement of the regular insurance based healthcare system or with their name on the prescription. It wouldn't have helped this young man, but he was probably realistic that had he asked for help for his issues, it would have precluded him from achieving his career goal. Tough spot.
 
Who is to say it would not have helped?
 
weilke said:
...had he asked for help for his issues, it would have precluded him from achieving his career goal. Tough spot.
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What are the odds of any person being "depressed" to the point they require treatment? How many out of, say, 100 or 1000 people suffer from it? Then, what are the odds of such a person having a parent "medically-trained in psychiatry"? And then, the odds of having TWO parents so trained? You'd think, well I would think, that maybe the kid was exhausted from trying too hard to meet certain idealistic expectations of behavior.
 
Hengelo said:
I think that is completely beside the point. He was upset enough to end his life; clearly he was ill. Whatever the style of treatment he needed, he was afraid to seek it out because of the draconian FAA policies/rules.
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I don't understand this argument, which comes up frequently.

Can we agree that someone willing to solve his problems by crashing an airplane shouldn't be flying? And that the result of such a person "seeking help" should be that he can no longer fly? Or are there some folks who would be OK with this guy walking into a shrink's office and saying, "I think I'm going to fly my plane into the side of a mountain and end it all," and walk out with his medical intact?

I don't think a system needs to be "draconian" to bar such a pilot from legally flying.

Everybody should get help for their medical (including mental health issues), not everybody should be a pilot.
 
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Hengelo said:
I don't think you're callous, but I do think you're making weak/uninformed arguments. Not all treatment involves "meds" and not all "meds" are for life. You don't wear a cast on a broken limb for the rest of your life, and that's a good analogy.

As for "life puts speedbumps... you deal with it" I think that's been widely enough debunked that we can put it to rest here, unless by "Deal with it" you mean "seek treatment."
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"This isnt the 1800’s where we treat illness with leeches and literally blowing smoke up your backside. We have modern techniques and medications that can help a lot of people."

That was the part of the statement I was mainly responding to.
 
dtuuri said:
What are the odds of any person being "depressed" to the point they require treatment? How many out of, say, 100 or 1000 people suffer from it? Then, what are the odds of such a person having a parent "medically-trained in psychiatry"? And then, the odds of having TWO parents so trained? You'd think, well I would think, that maybe the kid was exhausted from trying too hard to meet certain idealistic expectations of behavior.
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On the flip side, with his parents profession, how hard would it have been to treat without the FAA knowing? And yet...
 
Embry-Riddle had an isntructor suicide-crash back in 1998.
 
Morgan3820 said:
Years ago there was a guy who did a similar thing in California. he did a variation where I took a bunch of sleeping pills, put the plane on auto pilot and headed out on the Pacific and then called of the controller and gave him a phone number to call and a short script. Apparently the guy was caught embezzling. I recall the controller desperately trying to talk him out of it but to no avail.
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Don't know about that one, but there was Marcus Schreker who faked his own suicide-crash.
 
Cloudhound said:
Why not just take it as his notes were written, because what, now we're going to second guess his written word??
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You miss the point entirely. The vast majority of folks don’t wake up and say today’s the day I
*get a dui
*run over a bus full of nuns
*take my life

Just like an accident, there’s a chain of events that lead up to it. Break one link in the chain and you save someone’s life.
 
Hengelo said:
Very sad story, and it looks to be pretty much what most feared; he was stuck between his dream (flying) and disqualifying therapy.

https://abc7chicago.com/university-of-north-dakota-und-plane-crash-suicide/11514599/
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weilke said:
Glad the parents are talking about this.
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Several presentations from the UND Aviation Mental Health Summit referenced in the ABC-7 article are on YouTube. I watched them while researching a podcast and would recommend them.

John Hauser's parents spoke during the summit's introduction, and Dr. Alan Hauser read directly from the letter his son left them the quote that's paraphrased in the article: "I want to seek help more than anything. I really do I want to get better; I just know if I try I will have to give up on aviation, and frankly I'd rather not be here than do that. So here I am."
 
dtuuri said:
What are the odds of any person being "depressed" to the point they require treatment? How many out of, say, 100 or 1000 people suffer from it? Then, what are the odds of such a person having a parent "medically-trained in psychiatry"? And then, the odds of having TWO parents so trained? You'd think, well I would think, that maybe the kid was exhausted from trying too hard to meet certain idealistic expectations of behavior.
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I've head some garbage takes in my time, but I have to say this one is on is on the podium. You're blaming his parents because they are psychiatrists.

The odds of people being suicidal is something like 16 out of 100k in the general population, and about double that for Veterans as of 2019. I guess there must be a lot of double Psych parents of veterans...

Can we agree the "cause" of his distress is unknowable at this point, and that impugning his grieving family is in poor taste. I don't know what the membership numbers are for this forum but I'm willing to bet there are a few members who have been touched by suicide.
 
Lindberg said:
I don't understand this argument, which comes up frequently.

Can we agree that someone willing to solve his problems by crashing an airplane shouldn't be flying? And that the result of such a person "seeking help" should be that he can no longer fly? Or are there some folks who would be OK with this guy walking into a shrink's office and saying, "I think I'm going to fly my plane into the side of a mountain and end it all," and walk out with his medical intact?

I don't think a system needs to be "draconian" to bar such a pilot from legally flying.

Everybody should get help for their medical (including mental health issues), not everybody should be a pilot.
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I don't think anybody here thinks that someone actively contemplating suicide should be flying. The point is that treatment exists and people can be cured. The "draconian" part involves a lifetime ban for a temporary illness.
 
Hengelo said:
The odds of people being suicidal is something like 16 out of 100k in the general population, and about double that for Veterans as of 2019.
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Any studies of the rates for kids of psychiatrists? Or of other over-achieving parents? I'm blaming nobody, I said "maybe" after a lifetime of in-house therapy, 24/7, it could have caused a problem. Not saying it's the case, not blaming the parents, just wondering if it could have been. If so, it might be reason for well-intentioned parents to back off and just let kids be kids. Just sayin...

Hengelo said:
Can we agree the "cause" of his distress is unknowable at this point, and that impugning his grieving family is in poor taste.
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Certainly, and I hope you're clear now that I haven't.

Hengelo said:
I don't know what the membership numbers are for this forum but I'm willing to bet there are a few members who have been touched by suicide.
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I have recently taken in an old friend for the purpose of preventing that very thing. Her psychiatrist only managed to get her hooked on benzos.
 
Hengelo said:
I don't think anybody here thinks that someone actively contemplating suicide should be flying. The point is that treatment exists and people can be cured. The "draconian" part involves a lifetime ban for a temporary illness.
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Based on my own personal observations, people who are contemplating suicide don't get magically cured from a temporary illness. Can it be successfully managed with treatment, yes. For most this is a lifelong struggle.

That's not to say that people with this issue should be disqualified from operating light GA aircraft if they are still qualified to operate a car, I don't see any difference. Just as easy to do suicide by car.
 
dtuuri said:
Any studies of the rates for kids of psychiatrists? Or of other over-achieving parents? I'm blaming nobody, I said "maybe" after a lifetime of in-house therapy, 24/7, it could have caused a problem. Not saying it's the case, not blaming the parents, just wondering if it could have been. If so, it might be reason for well-intentioned parents to back off and just let kids be kids. Just sayin...
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His parents are internists.

While there is no shortage of physician parents who push their children hard, they tend to focus on getting their kids into an Ivy League school, not into an airline. I see him going to UND as a sign of his parents letting him be what he wanted to be.

This was a kid with the dream to become a pilot. As it frequently happens, his mental health issues (depression vs. bipolar vs. adjustment disorder) presented once he was away for college. The only reason we are talking about this is because of the tool he chose to end his life. More commonly, a roommate would find the student dead from pills and it would be simply a 'unattended death' investigated by the county coroner (or ME).
 
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Friend of mine tried to kill themselves a few months after transitioning from military to civilian. No deployments, no trauma, just couldn't deal with all of the changes in their life as a 20 something year old, and was overwhelmed. Police found them, saved them, they spent some time in a local hospital, then outpatient treatment. Fast forward 20 years, they have a happy family, and life is truly great for them. Some people just get overwhelmed. My friend wasn't angry, wasn't dangerous, wasn't paranoid, wasn't on drugs.

Was my friend suicidal? Yep. Would my friend ever have knowingly harmed anyone? Nope. For that last question, it could be said that no one can answer that question absolutely, but I would trust this person as much as I'd trust anyone outside my immediate family.

I don't know what the answer is, but I'd argue that the current situation is maybe the worst way to do it. It may prevent some perspective pilots who are a danger to others from flying. But it absolutely is leading to existing and perspective pilots not getting help when they need it.
 
dell30rb said:
Based on my own personal observations, people who are contemplating suicide don't get magically cured from a temporary illness. Can it be successfully managed with treatment, yes. For most this is a lifelong struggle.

That's not to say that people with this issue should be disqualified from operating light GA aircraft if they are still qualified to operate a car, I don't see any difference. Just as easy to do suicide by car.
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Your personal observations are at odds with medical science. I agree with you on the hypocrisy of being able to drive and not fly.
 
dtuuri said:
Any studies of the rates for kids of psychiatrists? Or of other over-achieving parents? I'm blaming nobody, I said "maybe" after a lifetime of in-house therapy, 24/7, it could have caused a problem. Not saying it's the case, not blaming the parents, just wondering if it could have been. If so, it might be reason for well-intentioned parents to back off and just let kids be kids. Just sayin...

Certainly, and I hope you're clear now that I haven't.

I have recently taken in an old friend for the purpose of preventing that very thing. Her psychiatrist only managed to get her hooked on benzos.
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Everything you have written leads me to believe 1) you blame his parents, and 2) you have an axe to grind with psychiatrists or the profession at large.

I'll be the first to say Psychiatry has a filthy, tragic history, that's no cause to blame his parents hypothetically or otherwise.
 
dtuuri said:
You're one, aincha. ;)
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God forbid! You're not too far from Duluth though so if the aviation gods smile on us we can share a wobbly pop sometime soon and swap stories.
 
Hengelo said:
Everything you have written leads me to believe 1) you blame his parents, and 2) you have an axe to grind with psychiatrists or the profession at large.

I'll be the first to say Psychiatry has a filthy, tragic history, that's no cause to blame his parents hypothetically or otherwise.
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Again, his parents are internists. Dad is an infectious disease specialist and his mom is a general internist in primary care. The 'training in psychiatry' refers to the general training anyone who practices medicine has when it comes to assessing suicidality or the need for referral. And yes, he could have been a perfectly well adjusted teenager who experienced a first episode of a psychiatric disorder that manifests itself with suicidality after he started college. Happens all the time and colleges work on finding those students and getting them into treatment.

Btw. an episode of suicidality ist not 'proof' of someone having a lifelong major depressive disorder. Can be, doesn't have to.
 
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Hengelo said:
I'm not a lawyer but a suicide note seems pretty close to a deathbed confession, which I believe (?) can be admissible evidence.
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Federal Rule of Evidence 804 provides for exceptions to the general rule excluding hearsay contingent on the declarant not being available. Paragraph (b)(2) provides:

Statement Under the Belief of Imminent Death. In a prosecution for homicide or in a civil case, a statement that the declarant, while believing the declarant’s death to be imminent, made about its cause or circumstances.
​
If not that rule, you could also argue for admissibility under Rule 803, which provides for exceptions regardless of whether the declarant is available or not. Paragraph (3) provides an exception to the general rule of exclusion for:

A statement of the declarant’s then-existing state of mind (such as motive, intent, or plan) or emotional, sensory, or physical condition (such as mental feeling, pain, or bodily health), but not including a statement of memory or belief to prove the fact remembered or believed unless it relates to the validity or terms of the declarant’s will.​
 
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