Uncontrolled airport with knucklehead in pattern

Tommar98 said:
So I understand the trolling on POA but not sure I get where your coming from. I wasn't in "IFR mode" when we ended the approach and entered the pattern. We did announce 6 miles out on rnav 14 and circle to land. I announced crosswind entry. I announced we had traffic on downwind ahead of us. I also understand someone can get goofed up on which runway is being used. But with so many people announcing pattern for 32 it is odd how this person was so unaware of what was going on.

The point of the IPad reference was to reiterate that it isn't a good tool in the pattern and your eyes out of the cockpit are more helpful. I doubt I looked at my yoke mounted iPad for more than a few seconds - that was my point - it's not helpful unless you bury your head in the cockpit - which isn't good.


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So, let's see... you announced on CTAF when you were only 4 minutes away from the airport environment (approximately) that you were "6 miles out on rnav 14 and circle to land" and then became indignant when someone else decided they would land 14? Maybe the knucklehead was the first guy that keyed the mic and said 14. ;) (Just another possible point of view.) Another pilot heard you call "6 miles out on rnav 14 circle to land" and may have thought that local traffic was adjusting to local conditions. Sometimes less is more. Consider that, while on an IFR training flight in VFR conditions where you are not actually flying an approach, it might be wiser to just keep that "6 miles out on rnav 14 and circle to land" between you and your CFII on the intercom, not on CTAF. If you were flying the published approach and going missed then disregard my suggestion and do what is safest and according to established practice. :) Be safe out there, everyone, and share the sky.
 
What is it with Cirrus pilots that make them fly not wide patterns, not B-52 patterns, but space shuttle patterns. Today some yahoo was doing multiple vfr traffic patterns outside of 4 miles from the airport. He would take off turn crosswind and not be seen again until 2 miles out on final all the while announcing he was staying in the pattern turning downwind, base and final. I ended up inbound on a 45 as he was on his downwind no where to be seen. I knew he had to be in front of me somewhere when he called baseleg and when I passed abeam the approach end of the runway I asked how far from the airfield he was-- he said 2 miles on final. I extended my downwind and called number two to land behind the Cirrus on two mile final but I still couldn't see him to turn base. He finally came into sight more than three miles out on final. He had to have been at least four miles from the threshold when he called two mile final. When I told him his distance he said "but I see the runway."
 
PaulS said:
I was thinking that too, no active runway at an uncontrolled airport, but landing on a runway with 3 AC in the pattern for the opposite runway is suicide.
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Normal day at KBVS uncontrolled airport some have no radio and others just turn them off if people don't like what they are doing.
 
Want to echo what @Lachlan said above.

IFR guys might forget that VFR only pilots may get confused when you are coming in missed on the opposite use runway, especially if you are calling out waypoints that aren’t known to them. Happened to me while in primary training and my CFI handled the radio calls. Later at the same airport it happened to me solo and I knew what to expect. Just a thought.

I’ll be starting my IR training this year so it’s something I will try to be mindful of.

Not saying it’s the reason for what happened to you in the pattern. Just a general comment.
 
woodchucker said:
Want to echo what @Lachlan said above.

IFR guys might forget that VFR only pilots may get confused when you are coming in missed on the opposite use runway, especially if you are calling out waypoints that aren’t known to them. Happened to me while in primary training and my CFI handled the radio calls. Later at the same airport it happened to me solo and I knew what to expect. Just a thought.

I’ll be starting my IR training this year so it’s something I will try to be mindful of.

Not saying it’s the reason for what happened to you in the pattern. Just a general comment.
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It happened to me before I started my IR training. Someone announced at a fix on a vor approach. I was in the pattern, I told the guy where I was in the pattern and that his announcement meant nothing to me, I had no idea where he was. He reannounced 5 or 6 miles out on a final for runway 32 and that he'd be looking for me. All better. I generally announce x miles, direction from the airport and my intentions.
 
OP- thanks for sharing your story. It’s unfortunate that most threads on here dissolve quickly when someone is honest about their experience. The group crushes anyone who’s not a “perfect” pilot.

Non towered airports can be a mess. I fly out of a very busy one and it takes good communication by all the pilots to get the job done. Your CFI handled it well but I wonder what you were waiting for by not with extending downwind until it was clear the guy was not gonna cut you off or just announcing that you were number 2 for the runway. Clearly the thee guy was at fault for the screw up but it seems like maybe your looking at the IPad led you to miss a simpler solution which was just more effective communication. Glad you landed safely!
 
Shawn said:
Look...I appreciate how we are bashing/praising the OP for how he conquered/screwed up his scenario but can we get back to how I was WRONGED by being called immature and lazy? I am offended.

...I am not lazy.
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Hey now... I thought I was the one called immature. Don't make me come after your non-lazy butt!
 
Shawn said:
Look...I appreciate how we are bashing/praising the OP for how he conquered/screwed up his scenario but can we get back to how I was WRONGED by being called immature and lazy? I am offended.

...I am not lazy.
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I did not call you, personally a lazy or immature person.. .. seriously. Are you people not reading the posts??
 
The number of curmudgeonly old buggers on here who think that ADS-B is the work of the devil is depressing but not surprising given the typical GA demographic. A few years ago these same Luddites would have been ranting about how GPS is a disaster and all anyone should use is a chart and a pencil, and before that it would have been about how using radios is going to make everybody fall from the sky.

ADS-B traffic is a useful tool to add to all the other tools. If I know there are 4 airplanes to look out for, and a 2 second glance at a screen allows me to accurately place where I should be looking for 3 of them, that's a big help and shortens the time needed to get visual with all. If Salty is incapable of reading the screen in a timely fashion, that's his own issue, but personal limitations aren't a valid reason to go attack those with greater capacity.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I did not call you, personally a lazy or immature person.. .. seriously. Are you people not reading the posts??
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I read em. I didn't think you called him lazy, fat, or ugly. I actually agreed with you (with an introspective nod of my noggin) that the use of "cuz" does indeed appear like a rather lazy shortcut, and I was even reading it on some iJunk. For what it's worth.
 
Lachlan said:
I read em. I didn't think you called him lazy, fat, or ugly. I actually agreed with you (with an introspective nod of my noggin) that the use of "cuz" does indeed appear like a rather lazy shortcut, and I was even reading it on some iJunk. For what it's worth.
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I'm always on some version of iJunk. Even the company i work for uses the iPad for our EFB program. I'm so entrenched in the apple universe now it would be hard to switch because in some ways I'm lazy but the pricing for the new iPhones is more than I am willing to spend on any phone.. ever.
 
Shawn said:
Most of today's younger generation spends all day rapidly processing digital information and muti-tasking. It is a skill that much of the older generation do not possess (many, not all).

What set me off was the notion that just cuz some takes a long time to process that information as you noted, it is extremely judgmental to assume that everyone has that limitation...cuz it is not the case for everyone.

I am not advocating for heads down in the pattern, but to admonish someone for using all available tools at their disposal for safety as an AID to situation awareness is freakin absurd IMO.
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Hi Shawn - I think I get it, you glanced at the electrons to narrow down the target for your eyeballs; no worries, makes sense. I wonder if the guy discounted you as traffic, not understanding your approach parameters. Or, was just not up to the task of gaining SA?

I would suggest that most of today's younger generation are somewhat slower at processing "digital" info, given that most of us older guys still flying have been doing it (processing digital info) far longer. Things have been pseudo-digital since the 70's. I say "pseudo" since the initial sensing, and final conversion, for human use remain analog.

Also, humans do not multi-task - our ability to transition between tasks rapidly is the limiter - how much "overhead" time it takes to do so. Age degrades it a bit, but extensive expereince improves it.
 
Am I the only pilot left who does not use a tablet and has nothing worth looking at in the cockpit?

I had TCAS/ADS-B when I flew helicopters in the Gulf of Mexico. It was annoying...
 
Katamarino said:
The number of curmudgeonly old buggers on here who think that ADS-B is the work of the devil is depressing but not surprising given the typical GA demographic. A few years ago these same Luddites would have been ranting about how GPS is a disaster and all anyone should use is a chart and a pencil, and before that it would have been about how using radios is going to make everybody fall from the sky.

ADS-B traffic is a useful tool to add to all the other tools. If I know there are 4 airplanes to look out for, and a 2 second glance at a screen allows me to accurately place where I should be looking for 3 of them, that's a big help and shortens the time needed to get visual with all. If Salty is incapable of reading the screen in a timely fashion, that's his own issue, but personal limitations aren't a valid reason to go attack those with greater capacity.
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Don’t you worry about me. I’ll actually know where you are because I was looking outside. You’ll know where your iPad thought I might be when it last refreshed - if I’m actually equipped with adsb out and it’s working - you’re the one I’m worried about flying aroound a pattern full of airplanes with your head down.

It worries me that so many of you think adsb works well enough to use it in this way. I still see far more traffic looking outside than I do with adsb. I do find it helpful in cruise flight and coming into a crowded area To get a general idea of where some of the traffic is going to be. often the data is way to stale to use in the pattern safely.
 
You need to check your reading comprehension. ADS-B in addition to looking beats just looking. If you're incapable of safely glancing at your instruments for a second or two, you probably shouldn't be in the cockpit.

Of course, if one spends all ones time buzzing around the southeast and posting on forums, it might take longer to gain an appreciation of and competence with the full suite of tools available to pilots.

Do you also oppose use of radio to hear where other traffic is, because some people might be non radio? By your logic we should therefore turn off the radio completely as it doesn't give a perfect 100% traffic overview.
 
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Katamarino said:
You need to check your reading comprehension. ADS-B in addition to looking beats just looking. If you're incapable of safely glancing at your instruments for a second or two, you probably shouldn't be in the cockpit.

Of course, if one spends all ones time buzzing around the southeast and posting on forums, it might take longer to gain an appreciation of and competence with the full suite of tools available to pilots.

Do you also oppose use of radio to hear where other traffic is, because some people might be non radio? By your logic we should therefore turn off the radio completely as it doesn't give a perfect 100% traffic overview.
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I’m not the one that’s not reading. You’re arguing against a bunch of things I never said.

I’ve done things you haven’t. That doesn’t make me right and you wrong. It works both ways. The fact that you think it’s an insult that I haven’t flown exactly where you have says all that needs to be said about you. Nobody can meet your standards but you. Congrats.
 
Katamarino said:
The number of curmudgeonly old buggers on here who think that ADS-B is the work of the devil is depressing but not surprising given the typical GA demographic. A few years ago these same Luddites would have been ranting about how GPS is a disaster and all anyone should use is a chart and a pencil, and before that it would have been about how using radios is going to make everybody fall from the sky.

ADS-B traffic is a useful tool to add to all the other tools. If I know there are 4 airplanes to look out for, and a 2 second glance at a screen allows me to accurately place where I should be looking for 3 of them, that's a big help and shortens the time needed to get visual with all. If Salty is incapable of reading the screen in a timely fashion, that's his own issue, but personal limitations aren't a valid reason to go attack those with greater capacity.
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I agree with a lot of this but I’ll share my experience with ADS-B so far. I use the Scout reciever and an iPad mini currently. It works great as I’m a renter. The issue I have is the targets on the screen are often really hard to decipher where exactly they are. Sure you can get the target, see the altitude and direction of flight, but it’s extremely hard to have precise location( I.e— in relation to visual markers outside the aircraft.) So in a sense, you need to continue to stare at the screen to watch the target move( like ATC does) but that’s not realistic in the cockpit( nor safe.). ADS-B use in the pattern really would not be wise but I can see how it could help make situational awareness better.

ADS-B will help with straight and level cruise flight aircraft avoidance but not sure it will be super helpful in other situations, especially the pattern.
 
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Lachlan said:
So, let's see... you announced on CTAF when you were only 4 minutes away from the airport environment (approximately) that you were "6 miles out on rnav 14 and circle to land" and then became indignant when someone else decided they would land 14? Maybe the knucklehead was the first guy that keyed the mic and said 14. ;) (Just another possible point of view.) Another pilot heard you call "6 miles out on rnav 14 circle to land" and may have thought that local traffic was adjusting to local conditions. Sometimes less is more. Consider that, while on an IFR training flight in VFR conditions where you are not actually flying an approach, it might be wiser to just keep that "6 miles out on rnav 14 and circle to land" between you and your CFII on the intercom, not on CTAF. If you were flying the published approach and going missed then disregard my suggestion and do what is safest and according to established practice. :) Be safe out there, everyone, and share the sky.
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Best post in the thread. Just yesterday, some guy announced he was 10 miles out on the gps approach when I was starting my run up. After I took off, he announced 6 miles. Each time reiterating he was on the GPS approach. Someone eventually asked him if he was landing.
 
Kritchlow said:
I’m not suggesting he was not a knucklehead, but....

There is no active runway at an unctrolled airport, and your instructor had no business demanding he not land.
I think a “there’s lots of traffic in the pattern and we are all using 32” would have been more appropriate.
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This. Its an uncontrolled field. Advise of the existing traffic but don't tell anyone don't land.

As for looking at the ipad? Its a tool, go ahead and use it. I have more of a problem with someone hearing a position call on the radio, looking at their ipad and seeing a target, then finding an aircraft in that general location and deciding they've got ALL the traffic in sight and therefore they stop looking for more. I suspect that poses a far greater risk than anyone one looking their ipad first and looking out the window second. If they're looking out the window second, at least they're looking.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
As for looking at the ipad? Its a tool, go ahead and use it. I have more of a problem with someone hearing a position call on the radio, looking at their ipad and seeing a target, then finding an aircraft in that general location and deciding they've got ALL the traffic in sight and therefore they stop looking for more. I suspect that poses a far greater risk than anyone one looking their ipad first and looking out the window second. If they're looking out the window second, at least they're looking.
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Sorry to disagree. BUT. Odds are you will see the traffic in the pattern faster by looking out the window first.

Who wants to read the incident report that says "They announced their position and I looked at my iJunk, but my spinner found them before I did and we fell 1200' after contact. Here's the flight track, if you're interested."
 
Tommar98 said:
So I understand the trolling on POA but not sure I get where your coming from. I wasn't in "IFR mode" when we ended the approach and entered the pattern. We did announce 6 miles out on rnav 14 and circle to land. I announced crosswind entry. I announced we had traffic on downwind ahead of us. I also understand someone can get goofed up on which runway is being used. But with so many people announcing pattern for 32 it is odd how this person was so unaware of what was going on.

The point of the IPad reference was to reiterate that it isn't a good tool in the pattern and your eyes out of the cockpit are more helpful. I doubt I looked at my yoke mounted iPad for more than a few seconds - that was my point - it's not helpful unless you bury your head in the cockpit - which isn't good. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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+1 for this post as well.

At our little uncontrolled airport we can get a lots of students from the nearby Delta training FBO's. They seem to come in two flavors.

The first are PPL trainee's - they are great, they announce, follow the pattern religiously and rarely seem to get mixed up. They can be in for surprise on some squirrely winds and often do T&G's that I will rarely do because there isn't much runway left, especially for a newbie who just used half of it to land. Sorry, I digressed. I like these guys. They stop in and chat and smile and are having a blast.

The second batch is often the IFR guys. They announce stuff that us PPL's do not understand. If you tell me you are flying our RNAV13 and then circle to land...not one thing in that statement implies or says with 100% clarity that you will actually be landing on R31. Yes, you have instrument training and know what it means. But I am not required by any regulation to know what you are now learning. If I could know it I would and eventually will, but I don't right now. Often a PPL will see an approach chart. Guess what is on it. Usually some type of racetrack like path (I'm guessing part of your missed procedure?). I could easily see a PPL thinking that is what you meant by circle to land.

I swear there must be some notable percentage of IFR trainees/pilots that just forget they were PPL's and just what you didn't know at that point. Then they blast into a uncontrolled environments expecting everyone to understand the jargon, procedures, etc. Until the FAA mandates that you also have a IR to fly an airplane, why not help out at the uncontrolled airport vs assume everyone has the instrument rating and will bow to you. The same goes for the 4,852mile RNAV straight ins and opposite traffic direction low approaches with traffic taxing or waiting to take off.

I am guessing the OP's call actually confused the "knucklehead". Sure he should have questioned it based on winds and other traffic calls but I bet he was scratching his head trying to figure it out.

Maybe your CFII's call should indicated that all planes including the "RNAV14 approach" will be landing on R32.

Oh yeah, I don't recall the OP acknowledging yet that some planes will never show up on ADSB. When I read his first post I got the impression he believes all of the planes would have shown up on ADSB (sorry if I got that wrong, just the way I read it).
 
I think some here may be confusing the latency of XM or adsb weather with traffic reports. We know radar and weather screens on adsb can be up to 10 minutes delayed, hence the danger of using it for close in weather avoidance. Traffic info is pretty much instantaneous or as close as it can get in an airplane, at least that's my experience, its tough to find info on that. And this pilot understands that not all traffic is on that screen. In fact, I've said it before, I've seen traffic, tooling along, looked at the screen, one second it wasn't there, the next it was, then it disappeared again, all while it is zipping by a mile off my wing. It's not perfect, it shouldn't be used instead of looking outside, but it definitely is useful info most of the time.

My general mode is out the window first, if I can't find it, I'll glance at the screen on the panel, which most times will give me relative location and height above or below me, then I go back outside. I also make sure my plane is upright, maintaining altitude as required, at the right airspeed and keeping track of where I am in the pattern, all dynamic things. If I still can't find the other AC and think it's threat, I'll report my position and ask the other aircraft for their position. Most are helpful, a small few sound aggravated at having to answer me, but who cares.
 
ircphoenix said:
What? And I bet you expect fighter pilots and airline pilots to rely on "radar" and "tcas" and "controllers" too. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, makes up for your eyeballs. Especially when the aircraft you're looking for is behind you and blends in with the sky, and you probably won't see it until it's wing up/down in the pattern and 500 feet away anyway...

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Actually, the record shows that eyeballs suck. Absolutely suck. There have probably been fifty times when traffic was called out that we never saw it.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Actually, the record shows that eyeballs suck. Absolutely suck. There have probably been fifty times when traffic was called out that we never saw it.
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I'd say speak for your self.. I wouldn't be concentrating on electronic devices.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Actually, the record shows that eyeballs suck. Absolutely suck. There have probably been fifty times when traffic was called out that we never saw it.
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Me, too. But a GA plane is hard to spot at 8 miles on a hazy summer day . . .

Close in, like in the pattern, my eyeballs are 100%. Can't vouch for that ADS-B thing, ain't got it. I often fly without a tablet; when I do bring it, it's sometimes in the back, inside my suitcase. And it wasn't made by apple, and has none of their software on it . . . . :eek:

My paper charts have never shut down in flight (my tablet battery has died, though), they've never told me that I forgot to update the database and therefore won't display (my tablet has done this, but I find I can still use a paper sectional that expired last month) . . . Ain't nobody perfect, ain't no one way to do anything. Get over it, you have your preferences, I have mine. Don't believe this? Make a post about "proper" barbecue!

As for people trying to land against the flow of traffic, I'll certainly let them know. It beats the alternative of head-on contact on the runway or just above it.
 
Ravioli said:
Sorry to disagree. BUT. Odds are you will see the traffic in the pattern faster by looking out the window first.
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I think that would be hard to test for in terms of figuring out odds but for the sake of this conversation I don't disagree with you. For me this falls into the category of do you wanna talk about how things should be or do you wanna talk about how things actually are?. I'd much rather have a guy look at his screen and then look out the window and verify the traffic visually than look at his screen decide the traffic is no factor and then go back to just concentrating on the runway and his position relative to it without ever finding the traffic visually.

I suspect it also could be dependent on where you are and where the traffic says they are. If you're just turning crosswind and traffic is announcing midfield downwind, probably not too big a deal to check the screen then start looking. If you're mid field downwind and they announce joining downwind midfield, a lot of guys would probably be inclined to get their head on a swivel immediately.
 
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