Uncontrolled airport with knucklehead in pattern

[Tommar98]

So I was finishing up some IFR training with my instructor doing an RNAV approach with a circle to land back at our uncontrolled airport. It was sunny skies and busy. It was busy enough that approach control had dropped one pilot VFR flight following and the supervisor came right back on the frequency and told that plane to maintain its squawk and stay on the frequency. I was cleared for approach and asked to squawk VFR by approach. We could hear about 4-5 planes in and around pattern as we approached and announced our position as we proceeded in. The RNAV approach was for opposite end of currently used runway (RNAV approach was for runway 14 and runway 32 was being used for TO/landing).

I announced our crosswind for active runway and counted 3 planes ahead of me. A fourth plane announced downwind for 14 (not the active runway). I assumed maybe he said it in error as maybe it was a student pilot. I looked down at foreflight on my Ipad and located 3 of the planes ahead of me but not the 4th that announced. I then announced I was in downwind for 32. At that time one plane was landing; one was on final and another was turning base. Just then, I hear the 4th pilot announce turning base for 14! My CFI pipes in and tells him "32 is active- do not land on 14, there are 3 planes in pattern for 32." So the pilot announces he's headed for downwind for 32. Obviously he doesn't have any ADSB because I cant see him on Ipad. As I am turning base - had to extend it just a tad because of line - I hear this guy now announce he's on downwind for 32 and turning base!

I was looking out my window and there he is coming toward my on an angle -basically cutting off the downwind and angling toward base leg. I have to announce WE are on base leg and can see him - asked if he had us in sight. He says "oh ya - I see you" and then turns back toward the downwind.

Needless to say it was a big distraction having to keep track of this joker. No idea what he was listening to on CTAF (he was obviously on it and announcing position) and how he could be so unaware of what was going on. I did learn a little something about the foreflight and ADSB during this experience. It can see it might be easy to get distracted with your head down in cockpit looking at that instead of out the window. I didn't do that but I can see it being a potential problem. In my case, listening to who was where in the pattern and looking out the window (and seeing him coming to cut off my base turn) was clearly more valuable. Just a reminder of how crazy it can be on a busy GA day. It just made me wonder if it was just the guy on short final and the other guy landing what could have happened.

 

[Shepherd]

Life in the air lanes.

 

[texasclouds]

Wow, could have ended poorly.

 

[Ravioli]

Some may take this as an opportunity to point out the absurdity of even looking at your iPad in such a situation.
<-- He's one of them

A non-towered airport, and your looking for traffic on your iJunk. Is there radar coverage that would possibly give you the echo? It's possible, I guess, if you're under a rules area, but not likely. Your expecting Apple to do what your eyes should be doing.

 

[Tommar98]

Some may take this as an opportunity to point out the absurdity of even looking at your iPad in such a situation.
<-- He's one of them

Yes indeed. I've seen some threads about how ADSB will be a savior for GA pilots in these situations. That's why I mentioned it. If I didn't have a CFI in right seat I probably wouldn't have even glanced at it.


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[Ravioli]

If I didn't have a CFI in right seat I probably wouldn't have even glanced at it.

Might be a teachable moment for both of you. Why was your CFI letting you look at the iJunk to find unseen traffic in that situation? Your narrative didn't indicate that the CFI had the traffic in sight either.

 

[Shawn]

Your expecting Apple to do what your eyes should be doing.

Sorry, that is complete and utter BS. Having technology as an AID to situational awareness to QUICKLY obtain a visual on the traffic you are looking for is a MUCH better when you are looking for multiple known targets rather then having to find them all blindly and still look for the unknown. If you rely on the information as your only input, yes, you are an idiot but if a glance at a screen is too much information for you to manage in the cockpit in a high workload environment, there are bigger issues in the pilot's abilities.

 

[Unit74]

Sooo...... You are complaining that the guy didn't know what was up, got correct and then joined the conga line? You don't fly a Cirrus do you?

 

[Ravioli]

Sorry, that is complete and utter BS... Having technology as an AID to situational awareness to QUICKLY obtain a visual on the traffic you are looking for is a MUCH better when you are looking for multiple known targets rather then having to find them all blindly and still look for the unknown.

First, you're expecting you're in a service area that will give you the target and that the target is equipped.
Second, I know people who's first reaction to a traffic call is to look at their iJunk. I call them people I will never fly with again.

 

[Tommar98]

Might be a teachable moment for both of you. Why was your CFI letting you look at the iJunk to find unseen traffic in that situation? Your narrative didn't indicate that the CFI had the traffic in sight either.

Well I didn't get into the minutiae of it. He was working radios and looking at traffic. I tried to indicate that I looked at IPad briefly. Actually I was probably 4 miles out before the crosswind when I looked based on all the radio communication. I did take a quick peak on downwind when I heard him announce he was landing 14. Again- just to see. Yes, my head was on a swivel and that was the point of my post.


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[ircphoenix]

Sorry, that is complete and utter BS. Having technology as an AID to situational awareness to QUICKLY obtain a visual on the traffic you are looking for is a MUCH better when you are looking for multiple known targets rather then having to find them all blindly and still look for the unknown. If you rely on the information as your only input, yes, you are an idiot but if a glance at a screen is too much information for you to manage in the cockpit in a high workload environment, there are bigger issues in the pilot's abilities.

What? And I bet you expect fighter pilots and airline pilots to rely on "radar" and "tcas" and "controllers" too. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, makes up for your eyeballs. Especially when the aircraft you're looking for is behind you and blends in with the sky, and you probably won't see it until it's wing up/down in the pattern and 500 feet away anyway...

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[ircphoenix]

Sooo...... You are complaining that the guy didn't know what was up, got correct and then joined the conga line? You don't fly a Cirrus do you?

I think he's more annoyed that home boy was just blasting around the pattern, not listening to traffic, not keeping his own situational awareness up, and potentially becoming a problem. If he was listening in the first place, he would have known which runway was the active. After that, he would have known how many planes were in the pattern. Finally, he would have known he was missing one that he should have been expecting to turn behind. I don't have a problem at all being annoyed with this clown.

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[Tommar98]

I think he's more annoyed that home boy was just blasting around the pattern, not listening to traffic, not keeping his own situational awareness up, and potentially becoming a problem. If he was listening in the first place, he would have known which runway was the active. After that, he would have known how many planes were in the pattern. Finally, he would have known he was missing one that he should have been expecting to turn behind. I don't have a problem at all being annoyed with this clown.

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Yes. That would be correct. He had numerous opportunities to know what was going on. I was flying the very expensive, prestigious and elite Warrior. Lol


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[PaulS]

Well, I will take a peek at tas when I get a traffic call out, or if I don't see someone in the pattern. Half a second can be a big help in finding target the target versus just scanning for it. Oh, and I fly Cirrus too, those who don't like that, fu.

 

[Shawn]

Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, makes up for your eyeballs. Especially when the aircraft you're looking for is behind you and blends in with the sky, and you probably won't see it until it's wing up/down in the pattern and 500 feet away anyway...

No question...but if you know there are four targets you are looking for and after your scan you do not identify them, why in Gods name would you not take a glance at the screen to see exactly WHERE you should be looking to identify at least a few of them?

In the OP's scenario I personally would rather know exactly where #1, 2 and 3 are instantly to keep an eye out and head on a swivel for #4 which is the unknown. ADS-B is nothing more than a tool to tell your eyeballs where they should be looking more efficiently reducing your workload...not adding to it.

The people I am scared to fly with are the ones that are unable to process information fast enough to make safe decisions and actions

 

[Salty]

Adsb is only useful to tell you to look out for someone. You already knew to look out for someone due to the comms you were hearing.

I agree with ravioli. In the pattern, an iPad is the last place you should be looking,

 

[ircphoenix]

No question...but if you know there are four targets you are looking for and after your scan you do not identify them, why in Gods name would you not take a glance at the screen to see exactly WHERE you should be looking to identify at least a few of them?

In the OP's scenario I personally would rather know exactly where #1, 2 and 3 are instantly to keep an eye out and head on a swivel for #4 which is the unknown. ADS-B is nothing more than a tool to tell your eyeballs where they should be looking moire efficiently reducing your workload...not adding to it.

The people I am scared to fly with are the ones that are unable to process information fast enough to make safe decisions and actions

I was being sarcastic.

I 1000% believe that technology used as an aid makes complete sense as a way to supplement your own situational awareness. If you're flying around with cardboard covering your windows and relying exclusively on your iDevice, obviously that is a problem. But trying to get an idea of where you should be looking based on positional updates from a certificated device versus listening to some asshat who thinks his radio is a one way communication device is probably a good idea.

I look outside most of the time. I look at my screen some of the time. I use the screen to supplement my vision, and my vision to supplement my screen.

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[kgruber]

Complaining about your own mistakes................Hummm?????

 

[Anymouse]

 

[cgrab]

When he's that close switch to guns.

 

[PaulS]

Adsb is only useful to tell you to look out for someone. You already knew to look out for someone due to the comms you were hearing.

I agree with ravioli. In the pattern, an iPad is the last place you should be looking,

Adsb gives you a graphical representation of where a target is relative to your aircraft, in 3 dimensions. Is it a substitute for looking for traffic? Absolutely not. Can it help you find a target you are having trouble finding? Yup. Should you focus on it in the pattern? Nope, but a quick glance can help you find that elusive target that may or may not be reporting its position correctly.

 

[bflynn]

I dunno, sounds like every Saturday morning at my airport.

What's the question?

 

[Salty]

Adsb gives you a graphical representation of where a target is relative to your aircraft, in 3 dimensions. Is it a substitute for looking for traffic? Absolutely not. Can it help you find a target you are having trouble finding? Yup. Should you focus on it in the pattern? Nope, but a quick glance can help you find that elusive target that may or may not be reporting its position correctly.

We will have to agree to disagree. It takes way too much time to interpret what you’re seeing in an iPad. You’re much better off spending that time looking outside.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

No question...but if you know there are four targets you are looking for and after your scan you do not identify them, why in Gods name would you not take a glance at the screen to see exactly WHERE you should be looking to identify at least a few of them?

In the OP's scenario I personally would rather know exactly where #1, 2 and 3 are instantly to keep an eye out and head on a swivel for #4 which is the unknown. ADS-B is nothing more than a tool to tell your eyeballs where they should be looking more efficiently reducing your workload...not adding to it.

The people I am scared to fly with are the ones that are unable to process information fast enough to make safe decisions and actions

Sometimes the tcas helps. That adsb stuff is crap in a pattern. You’re wasting your time looking at it

I find the tcas more useful enroute. When center calls traffic I find it to be occasionally helpful in narrowing the visual scan. In a traffic pattern it’s a distraction.

 

[Tommar98]

Sometimes the tcas helps. That adsb stuff is crap in a pattern. You’re wasting your time looking at it

I find the tcas more useful enroute. When center calls traffic I find it to be occasionally helpful in narrowing the visual scan. In a traffic pattern it’s a distraction.

I don't disagree. That's my takeaway.


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[PaulS]

We will have to agree to disagree. It takes way too much time to interpret what you’re seeing in an iPad. You’re much better off spending that time looking outside.

I should clarify, I'm talking about looking to a TAS display on the panel, which literally takes about a second to glance at and look back outside. I don't use my IPAD, which is on my knee, for this.

I think tas is very useful, especially when 5 miles out, just to figure out what is going on in the pattern, at least with AC that have adsb.

 

[Unit74]

I dunno, sounds like every Saturday morning at my airport.

What's the question?

Yea Bruh.... Im like, OK... Are you in IFR mode and all that while the mouth breathers are be-bopping around the patter? Lemme guess OP, you were also calling out your location by the FAF and IF all hot shot like....... Ain't showing up on your iPad? Is your eyeball broken too or was your head down trying to figure out why your ADSB wasn't 100% accurate?

 

[Shawn]

We will have to agree to disagree. It takes way too much time to interpret what you’re seeing in an iPad. You’re much better off spending that time looking outside.

Most of today's younger generation spends all day rapidly processing digital information and muti-tasking. It is a skill that much of the older generation do not possess (many, not all).

What set me off was the notion that just cuz some takes a long time to process that information as you noted, it is extremely judgmental to assume that everyone has that limitation...cuz it is not the case for everyone.

I am not advocating for heads down in the pattern, but to admonish someone for using all available tools at their disposal for safety as an AID to situation awareness is freakin absurd IMO.

 

[Kritchlow]

I’m not suggesting he was not a knucklehead, but....

There is no active runway at an unctrolled airport, and your instructor had no business demanding he not land.
I think a “there’s lots of traffic in the pattern and we are all using 32” would have been more appropriate.

 

[PaulS]

I’m not suggesting he was not a knucklehead, but....

There is no active runway at an unctrolled airport, and your instructor had no business demanding he not land.
I think a “there’s lots of traffic in the pattern and we are all using 32” would have been more appropriate.

I was thinking that too, no active runway at an uncontrolled airport, but landing on a runway with 3 AC in the pattern for the opposite runway is suicide.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Most of today's younger generation spends all day rapidly processing digital information and muti-tasking. It is a skill that much of the older generation do not possess (many, not all).

What set me off was the notion that just cuz some takes a long time to process that information as you noted, it is extremely judgmental to assume that everyone has that limitation...cuz it is not the case.

I am not advocating for heads down in the pattern, but to admonish someone for using all available tools at their disposal for safety as an AID to situation awareness is freakin absurd.

I think you just don’t like hearing that you’re doing it wrong. Using “cuz” multiple times in your post also makes you come across as lazy and immature.

 

[eman1200]

I was thinking that too, no active runway at an uncontrolled airport, but landing on a runway with 3 AC in the pattern for the opposite runway is suicide.

wasn't the OP coming in on an approach to the opposite runway at first? with at least 3 AC in the pattern using the opposite rwy?

 

[Shawn]

I think you just don’t like hearing that you’re doing it wrong. Using “cuz” multiple times in your post also makes you come across as lazy and immature.

Sorry...immature is attacking the messenger and not the message. Didn't realize perfect grammar was a prerequisite for valid opinions...talk about judgmental...but to be expected on POA.

I am wrong all the time and like to learn from that.

 

[ircphoenix]

Didn't stop to think for a moment about the 15 minutes that it usually takes for me to discern traffic on my devices.

This might explain why I consistently end up 25 miles past my destination by the time I figure out that the guy on downwind must have been the dot on the downwind side of the runway 15 minutes ago.

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[TommyG]

Adsb is only useful to tell you to look out for someone. You already knew to look out for someone due to the comms you were hearing.

I agree with ravioli. In the pattern, an iPad is the last place you should be looking,

If there was someone in the pattern not going with the flow, and maybe unsure of what they are calling out. A quick look at the iPad is fair game.

I have had a pilot call left base, as I was in a left base. Couldn’t see him with my eyes, looked at the iPad and found he was on a left base about a mile further out than I was. And that was his first call.

 

[Unit74]

I think you just don’t like hearing that you’re doing it wrong. Using “cuz” multiple times in your post also makes you come across as lazy and immature.

Here comes the name calling..... You should know, when calling names it means you lack anything of substance to say.

 

[PaulS]

wasn't the OP coming in on an approach to the opposite runway at first? with at least 3 AC in the pattern using the opposite rwy?

Yup, he was RNAV 14 circle to land 32, could be an issue depending on how he flew it, or a non issue if he broke off into the circle in time. I'm working on my IR and have been doing a lot of circle to land approaches, always interesting, haven't had a traffic issue yet, except at my busy home field where I've been asked to break it off early and land to accommodate other traffic.

 

[Shawn]

Here comes the name calling..... You should know, when calling names it means you lack anything of substance to say.

Your use of five dots rather than three makes you come across as out of touch and a tool!

...just cuz!

 

[Unit74]

Your use of five dots rather than three makes you come across as out of touch and a tool!

...just cuz!

I know Bruh.... Ads that little "extra" jes Cuz I can.............

 

[Velocity173]

Sometimes the tcas helps. That adsb stuff is crap in a pattern. You’re wasting your time looking at it

I find the tcas more useful enroute. When center calls traffic I find it to be occasionally helpful in narrowing the visual scan. In a traffic pattern it’s a distraction.

If they have a transponder TCAS always helps. I’ll take our TCAD at work any day over ADS-B in iPad stuff. Even after 2020, they’ll still be those that don’t upgrade to ADS-B out.