Unairworthy Paperwork?

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

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Jaybird180
From a different Thread:

Henning said:
If you knowingly operate with defective paperwork, are you flying an unairworthy aircraft? :dunno:
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I think the answer is yes. Argue this point or Agree?

Further, can this be extended to Careless or Reckless Operation?

What enforcement action could be imposed upon the pilot if he is ramped checked and it is discovered he knew of the discrepancy, accounted for it during flight planning, but did nothing to correct it?
 
Jaybird180 said:
From a different Thread:


I think the answer is yes. Argue this point or Agree?

Further, can this be extended to Careless or Reckless Operation?

What enforcement action could be imposed upon the pilot if he is ramped checked and it is discovered he knew of the discrepancy, accounted for it during flight planning, but did nothing to correct it?
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I agree, whether reckless or not would be circumstantial on the paperwork.

I would say there will be a sit down with an inspector and safety counselor to try to get the airman to change their attitude. If the are cooperative and no more deficiencies are noted, that'll be the end of it.
 
Jim Logajan said:
What do you mean by defective?
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Would get you sent home from a check ride. The initial quote was from a thread with a fundamental arithmetical error on the W&B sheet put there by the A&P. If one would use the sheet as it stood for a W&B calculation, the result would not be correct. That is just one example of defective paperwork.
 
Typically all that ever happens with this stuff is they put a sticker on it to not fly it until the discrepancy is resolved. That's pretty much it, I haven't heard of anyone that's been to an FAA Gulag yet, but maybe you just never come out....
 
Jaybird180 said:
From a different Thread:


I think the answer is yes. Argue this point or Agree?
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It may or may not be unairworthy (some paperwork is required by the type certificate, other paperwork isn't), but if it's paperwork required by regulation, the operation would be illegal, just under a different section of the FAR's.
Further, can this be extended to Careless or Reckless Operation?
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Probably not, unless the FAA can show that the bad paperwork directly affected the safety of that flight, and the pilot either knew or should have known that.
What enforcement action could be imposed upon the pilot if he is ramped checked and it is discovered he knew of the discrepancy, accounted for it during flight planning, but did nothing to correct it?
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If the pilot had the paperwork corrected per the regs once s/he discovered the discrepancy but before further flight, I don't see how there would be a problem. However, if the pilot altered documents which pilots are not authorized to sign (like maintenance records other than preventive maintenance -- E-AB issues aside), I see the potential for enforcement action for violation of any or all of 91.7, 91.9, 91.103, 91.203, 91.207, 91.411, 91.413, or probably several others depending on just what the discrepancy was. Note that FAA Order 2150.3B ramps up the sanctions and eliminates administrative options like remedial training if pilot knew s/he was in violation and flew it anyway. Further, altering documents signed by someone else could also result in 61.59 violation, and that almost invariably results in revocation of all certificates.

Now, if we're back to the business of pilots altering their aircraft's weight and balance records to correct an error by the authorized person who prepared and signed them, I think the FAA would talk with the pilot to see if s/he understood the rules on who's authorized to prepare and sign aircraft maintenance records including W&B documents such as the empty weight/cg data and the equipment list. If the pilot didn't realize that requires an A&P's signature, I think the pilot would be counseled and told to get it properly signed by an authorized person before further flight. If the pilot refused to do that, I think enforcement action might ensue.
 
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Henning said:
Typically all that ever happens with this stuff is they put a sticker on it to not fly it until the discrepancy is resolved. That's pretty much it, I haven't heard of anyone that's been to an FAA Gulag yet, but maybe you just never come out....
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The FAA's legal system and the Italian criminal justice system have much in common. :yes: :D
 
Jaybird180 said:
From a different Thread:


I think the answer is yes. Argue this point or Agree?

Further, can this be extended to Careless or Reckless Operation?

What enforcement action could be imposed upon the pilot if he is ramped checked and it is discovered he knew of the discrepancy, accounted for it during flight planning, but did nothing to correct it?
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AROW. and MEL...and your personal stuff, cert and picture ID. All of it has to be current, correct, and on board.

If caught, you can be grounded, you, the aircraft whichever was lacking.
 
Ron Levy said:
It may or may not be unairworthy (some paperwork is required by the type certificate, other paperwork isn't), but if it's paperwork required by regulation, the operation would be illegal, just under a different section of the FAR's.
Probably not, unless the FAA can show that the bad paperwork directly affected the safety of that flight, and the pilot either knew or should have known that.
If the pilot had the paperwork corrected per the regs once s/he discovered the discrepancy but before further flight, I don't see how there would be a problem. However, if the pilot altered documents which pilots are not authorized to sign (like maintenance records other than preventive maintenance -- E-AB issues aside), I see the potential for enforcement action for violation of any or all of 91.7, 91.9, 91.103, 91.203, 91.207, 91.411, 91.413, or probably several others depending on just what the discrepancy was. Note that FAA Order 2150.3B ramps up the sanctions and eliminates administrative options like remedial training if pilot knew s/he was in violation and flew it anyway. Further, altering documents signed by someone else could also result in 61.59 violation, and that almost invariably results in revocation of all certificates.

Now, if we're back to the business of pilots altering their aircraft's weight and balance records to correct an error by the authorized person who prepared and signed them, I think the FAA would talk with the pilot to see if s/he understood the rules on who's authorized to prepare and sign aircraft maintenance records including W&B documents such as the empty weight/cg data and the equipment list. If the pilot didn't realize that requires an A&P's signature, I think the pilot would be counseled and told to get it properly signed by an authorized person before further flight. If the pilot refused to do that, I think enforcement action might ensue.
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I'm wondering if 61.59 might be taking this in a direction it was not intended to go.
:popcorn:
 
Henning said:
Would get you sent home from a check ride. The initial quote was from a thread with a fundamental arithmetical error on the W&B sheet put there by the A&P. If one would use the sheet as it stood for a W&B calculation, the result would not be correct. That is just one example of defective paperwork.
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Oh, Christ, Henning. Leave the thread in Maintenance, where you got beat up on this over the last week. You lost there and are trying to win here. Just forget about it. Some you lose, some you win, and some get rained out.

Jim
.
.
 
weirdjim said:
Oh, Christ, Henning. Leave the thread in Maintenance, where you got beat up on this over the last week. You lost there and are trying to win here. Just forget about it. Some you lose, some you win, and some get rained out.

Jim
.
.
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No sir, I lost nothing there lol, if you read my posts in the other thread again I believe you will retract that statement.;) I did not move it here either, although I gave permission to be quoted for it (I thought that rather polite to be asked). I was more than willing to let it die, it is a non issue to me. Since I was quoted though, I thought I would provide clarification and context to the question I was quoted asking.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I'm wondering if 61.59 might be taking this in a direction it was not intended to go.
:popcorn:
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Well, you asked. If you without proper authorization alter a document someone else signed, that's where the FAA will take it no matter where you intended to go.
 
Ron Levy said:
...Now, if we're back to the business of pilots altering their aircraft's weight and balance records to correct an error by the authorized person who prepared and signed them, I think the FAA would talk with the pilot to see if s/he understood the rules on who's authorized to prepare and sign aircraft maintenance records including W&B documents such as the empty weight/cg data and the equipment list...
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First of all, nobody ever said anything about altering a document. You simply make a new corrected one, superseding the erroneous one. Nothing is getting torn out, thrown out, whited out or otherwise changed. There is no nefarious intent and there is no regulation anywhere that says a Pilot/Owner cannot produce a W&B Report when no maintenance or alteration has been done to the aircraft.

In fact, every time a Pilot takes an aircraft on a flight he has changed the weight and balance by loading fuel and people on board so to say that he's somehow not qualified to do the mathematical calculations to produce a W&B Report is absurd.
 
Silvaire said:
First of all, nobody ever said anything about altering a document. You simply make a new corrected one, superseding the erroneous one. Nothing is getting torn out, thrown out, whited out or otherwise changed. There is no nefarious intent and there is no regulation anywhere that says a Pilot/Owner cannot produce a W&B Report when no maintenance or alteration has been done to the aircraft.

In fact, every time a Pilot takes an aircraft on a flight he has changed the weight and balance by loading fuel and people on board so to say that he's somehow not qualified to do the mathematical calculations to produce a W&B Report is absurd.
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:thumbsup:
 
Silvaire said:
First of all, nobody ever said anything about altering a document. You simply make a new corrected one, superseding the erroneous one. Nothing is getting torn out, thrown out, whited out or otherwise changed. There is no nefarious intent and there is no regulation anywhere that says a Pilot/Owner cannot produce a W&B Report when no maintenance or alteration has been done to the aircraft.

In fact, every time a Pilot takes an aircraft on a flight he has changed the weight and balance by loading fuel and people on board so to say that he's somehow not qualified to do the mathematical calculations to produce a W&B Report is absurd.
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It's not a question of competence, it's a question of authorization. If a mechanic makes any mistake concerning something only mechanics are authorized to do, it takes someone similarly authorized to rectify the mistake. It's obvious that you'll do whatever you damn well want to do no matter what anyone else says so good luck and have a nice life.
 
Silvaire said:
First of all, nobody ever said anything about altering a document. You simply make a new corrected one, superseding the erroneous one. Nothing is getting torn out, thrown out, whited out or otherwise changed. There is no nefarious intent and there is no regulation anywhere that says a Pilot/Owner cannot produce a W&B Report when no maintenance or alteration has been done to the aircraft.

In fact, every time a Pilot takes an aircraft on a flight he has changed the weight and balance by loading fuel and people on board so to say that he's somehow not qualified to do the mathematical calculations to produce a W&B Report is absurd.
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You've said this before in another thread, and it is not legal to alter the approved empty weight/cg data or to use data you developed yourself that is different than the approved data. If you find an error on the empty weight/cg data signed by a mechanic, you can certainly correct it, but then you must get another mechanic to approve what you did. And this is not the same as computing W&B for a particular load based on the licensed empty weight/cg data signed by a mechanic.

Anyone who doubts this can ask an Airworthiness Inspector at their local FSDO for confirmation.
 
Ugggg, I agree that you can't change the weight data, weighing the plane is an act of maintenance. However that is not all there is to a W&B form, it's a work sheet. If you notice that the correct data was entered into the wrong place on the work form, you can correct the arithmetic since that is not an act of maintenance. All the mechanic has to provide is the weight, from there anyone can follow the manufacturers's directions to calculate the arm.
 
Henning said:
Ugggg, I agree that you can't change the weight data, weighing the plane is an act of maintenance. However that is not all there is to a W&B form, it's a work sheet. If you notice that the correct data was entered into the wrong place on the work form, you can correct the arithmetic since that is not an act of maintenance. All the mechanic has to provide is the weight, from there anyone can follow the manufacturers's directions to calculate the arm.
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Agreed, but it isn't official until an authorized person signs the corrected form, and a pilot certificate doesn't provide that authorization.
 
Ron Levy said:
Agreed, but it isn't official until an authorized person signs the corrected form, and a pilot certificate doesn't provide that authorization.
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It doesn't need to be resigned since the weights didn't change. What the mechanic is signing off on is the weights that he is entering IIRC.
 
Henning said:
It doesn't need to be resigned since the weights didn't change. What the mechanic is signing off on is the weights that he is entering IIRC.
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No, the mechanic is signing the entire document, including the empty cg. If any of it ain't right, it has to be fixed and re-signed by a properly authorized person. You can do the computations yourself, and prepare a new sheet with the new data, but you need a mechanic to sign the bottom line for it to legally supersede the last one.
 
Witmo said:
It's not a question of competence, it's a question of authorization. If a mechanic makes any mistake concerning something only mechanics are authorized to do, it takes someone similarly authorized to rectify the mistake. It's obvious that you'll do whatever you damn well want to do no matter what anyone else says so good luck and have a nice life.
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Tim - we are talking about correcting a mathematical error okay? An A&P license is not required to add numbers, even if they are in a logbook.
 
Ron Levy said:
Agreed, but it isn't official until an authorized person signs the corrected form, and a pilot certificate doesn't provide that authorization.
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You continue to try make this something that it isn't. Let's put it in a very simple format so that everyone can understand what the discussion was about concerning this specific original question.

There is a formula: x+y=z
On this airplane x=2, y=2 and z=4
A Mechanic performs maintenance that results in a change to y and now y=1
The Mechanic documents this change by writing x=2, y=1 and z=4 and signs it

A Mechanic is not required to make a new logbook statement that 2+1=3 nor do you need to go into a court of law to prove it because well, IT DOES.

We've been talking about a situation with three variables, two of which are known to be correct but due to a mathematical error the third, derived value, is incorrect. You're 1200 miles from home on a Sunday afternoon when you discover this and you are a person who will never under any circumstance knowingly break a rule.

So do you ground yourself until you can find a Mechanic with new batteries in his calculator or do you write a new W&B Report with the CORRECT numbers on it?
 
Silvaire said:
You continue to try make this something that it isn't.

So do you ground yourself until you can find a Mechanic with new batteries in his calculator or do you write a new W&B Report with the CORRECT numbers on it?
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No, I single line strike the errors, write in the corrected values, initial them, and carry on.
 
Ron Levy said:
You can do that with errors you made. You cannot legally do that with errors over someone else's signature.
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Sure I can. Tell you what, I could change it, get caught out on a change on a ramp check, they call the mechanic, and the mechanic would testify upon examining the evidence that 'Yes, the corrections are mine" otherwise he is testifying that he can't do a weight and balance.:rofl:
 
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BTW Ron, do you really believe anyone with the authority to ground the plane would actually care about a proper arithmetical correction on that form? Not a chance. If you don't change the weights on the form, you haven't changed the maintenance portion.
 
Henning said:
BTW Ron, do you really believe anyone with the authority to ground the plane would actually care about a proper arithmetical correction on that form? Not a chance. If you don't change the weights on the form, you haven't changed the maintenance portion.
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Since there's nobody "with the authority to ground the plane", your question is moot. All someone can do is tell the pilot the aircraft isn't legal for flight. After that, the pilot can make his/her own decisions if s/he's willing to accept the consequences for his/her actions.

In any event, you seem to think that the only thing the mechanic performing the weighing is signing for on the sheet is the actual weights at each pad, and you're wrong. The mechanic is signing for everything over his/her signature, including the computations that go into turning those weights into licensed empty weight and cg location. Those holding only a pilot certificate don't have the legal authority to make changes to that document or to use other calculations they've performed themselves to determine a new licensed empty weight/cg. And they certainly don't have the authority to alter a document someone else signed.
 
Ron Levy said:
...The mechanic is signing for everything over his/her signature, including the computations that go into turning those weights into licensed empty weight and cg location...
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Okay hold on here. You're saying that the Mechanics signature usurps the laws of Physics and that the "licensed" CG (erroneously derived from an obvious mathematical error) is now what he says it is rather than what it really is? And that a Pilot has no authority to correct that error and produce his own W&B Report with the proper value?

Are you serious?
 
Silvaire said:
Okay hold on here. You're saying that the Mechanics signature usurps the laws of Physics and that the "licensed" CG (erroneously derived from an obvious mathematical error) is now what he says it is rather than what it really is? And that a Pilot has no authority to correct that error and produce his own W&B Report with the proper value?

Are you serious?
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Unfortunately he is.
 
Silvaire said:
Okay hold on here. You're saying that the Mechanics signature usurps the laws of Physics and that the "licensed" CG (erroneously derived from an obvious mathematical error) is now what he says it is rather than what it really is? And that a Pilot has no authority to correct that error and produce his own W&B Report with the proper value?

Are you serious?
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Let's say you're selling an airplane and you want to market it with a fresh annual. You hire an a&p w\ia to do it and in his logbook entry records compressions at the low end of the acceptable spectrum. You don't like it because it will raise a red flag with buyers and you know compression readings can vary quite a bit. So you decide to measure the compressions yourself and you get higher values using correct procedures. Can you change the values the IA recorded? You used correct procedures and obtained higher values. You're not lying about the compressions you obtained, you just don't agree with the ones the IA got and you're not certain he used optimum procedure to obtain the highest reading.

Let's say the IA's values were below the allowed values and he signs off the annual by saying "a list of unairworthy items was provided to the owner." Can the owner test the compressions again, get acceptable values and sign off the aircraft as airworthy?

The answers are no in every case. You can't correct an A&P's mistakes or modify his logbook entries or do something only an A&P is authorized to do. Making a w&b "report" is different than calculating a cg and gross weight for a flight. The former needs an A&P, the latter only a pilot certificate.
 
Witmo said:
Let's say you're selling an airplane and you want to market it with a fresh annual. You hire an a&p w\ia to do it and in his logbook entry records compressions at the low end of the acceptable spectrum. You don't like it because it will raise a red flag with buyers and you know compression readings can vary quite a bit. So you decide to measure the compressions yourself and you get higher values using correct procedures. Can you change the values the IA recorded? You used correct procedures and obtained higher values. You're not lying about the compressions you obtained, you just don't agree with the ones the IA got and you're not certain he used optimum procedure to obtain the highest reading.

Let's say the IA's values were below the allowed values and he signs off the annual by saying "a list of unairworthy items was provided to the owner." Can the owner test the compressions again, get acceptable values and sign off the aircraft as airworthy?

The answers are no in every case. You can't correct an A&P's mistakes or modify his logbook entries or do something only an A&P is authorized to do. Making a w&b "report" is different than calculating a cg and gross weight for a flight. The former needs an A&P, the latter only a pilot certificate.
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Ah, another master of the red herring. The answers to your questions are: Can the owner test the compression again? YES. Can the owner get acceptable values? YES. Can the owner sign off the aircraft as airworthy? NO. Don't ask multiple questions that can be answered YES and NO in the same package.

The owner is certainly entitled to notice a mathematical ("editorial") error and correct it in the logbook and SIGN it as the owner/operator. The pilot is free to choose whichever computation (s)he chooses for the flight's w/b.

Don't keep confusing the issue with your obvious obfuscation.

Jim
 
Witmo said:
... Can the owner test the compressions again, get acceptable values and sign off the aircraft as airworthy?

The answers are no in every case...
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As Jim pointed out the answers are YES and NO.

The owner can perform his own compression test, he can even make a logbook entry stating so and what the results were.

Now why you added "and sign off the aircraft as airworthy" is a bit of a head scratcher because obviously you know he can't do that.

Yer just messin' with us aren't you :rolleyes:
 
Witmo said:
...Can you change the values the IA recorded?...
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Not to pick on you Tim but I just noticed your first question and was wondering what you meant by that. Do you mean with something like a time machine? :dunno:
 
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