Two dead after Mooney door pops open. St Augustine FL

flyingron

Administrator
Management Council Member
PoA Supporter
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
24,905
Location
Catawba, NC
Display Name

Display name:
FlyingRon
While it's impossible to definitively say the open door caused the crash, there have been instances where the opening of a cockpit or baggage door on takeoff resulted in just that, because of the reaction by the pilot. I have personal experience with this, the unlatched nose baggage door of a 421 ending in the loss of all onboard. They're still missed.

An open door doesn't endanger flight. React accordingly.

May those lost rest easy.
 
While it's impossible to definitively say the open door caused the crash, there have been instances where the opening of a cockpit or baggage door on takeoff resulted in just that, because of the reaction by the pilot. I have personal experience with this, the unlatched nose baggage door of a 421 ending in the loss of all onboard. They're still missed.

An open door doesn't endanger flight. React accordingly.

May those lost rest easy.
Depends on which door...
 
There was an incident described over on Mooneyspace.com about a baggage door, popping open and was torn off and then collided and damaged the horizontal stabilizer. They made an emergency landing, the damage was significant, and this was also on a 231.
 
There was an incident described over on Mooneyspace.com about a baggage door, popping open and was torn off and then collided and damaged the horizontal stabilizer. They made an emergency landing, the damage was significant, and this was also on a 231.
There’s a video of that one…I’ll see if I can find it.

Edit, I think I found it:

 
back in 2010 or 2011 I took a discovery flight in a '46 Aeronca Champ. I hadn't decided on training and wanted to take a flight in a tail dragger and a flight in a tricycle gear plane before deciding. Just after takeoff in the Champ the entry door popped open. I was...umm...surprised but calmly, the pilot gently banked the Champ just enough to close the door.
 
That's what I like about the Navion. No doors (and you can fly with the canopy open).
 
Having experienced this first hand in an M20C, you just gotta ignore it and land. You're not going to get it closed while in flight, and I suppose because of the disturbance of airflow or suction, I saw the ASI and VSI bounce around a little. Wonder if he was trying to mess with it and just got distracted or in a position where he couldn't control it.

RIP. :sad:
 
Older Decathlon and Citabria doors commonly pop open during aerobatics due to frame flex. The TC holder eventually added another latch. Once I had my door pop open while going over the top of a loop during a contest. I switched hands and relatched it while inverted at zero G and finished the sequence.

In this case, sounds like unfamiliarity with a new plane might have been a factor. I don't know Mooneys but have read many times that they are fast and slick. I can see distraction at low level ending badly.
 
There was an incident described over on Mooneyspace.com about a baggage door, popping open and was torn off and then collided and damaged the horizontal stabilizer. They made an emergency landing, the damage was significant, and this was also on a 231.
During one of my Mooney checkouts, the importance of ensuring the baggage compartment door was properly latched and locked was discussed. I discuss it when I Mooney training.
 
I've had both my doors pop open in the Mooney. Neither was an issue at all. In neither case did I even attempt to close the door, simply circled and landed. I believe something more must have happened, whether it was simply distraction and not flying the plane, or some other issue occurred complicating the situation.
 
I've wondered how much of the "fly the plane" can be taught and how much is just who you are. I've had a few emergencies in my flying days and never panicked. I have the 'it is what it is' mentality. If you can't fix it, deal with it. On the other hand, I've been in planes with other pilots and had to calm them down.

One was a very rough engine and the pilot was going to turn around and dive to land downwind. We still had power and plenty of altitude. I had to tell him to breathe, and enter downwind. He would have gone off the runway.

The other was a friend whose cowling access door opened on his 170. It was flopping around after we took off and he was going to try to make it back down onto the runway. I told him no, the damage was done, enter the pattern and keep quite a bit of right rudder in and it will stop flopping around so much.

Both of these guys are great pilots, but didn't handle a slight emergency well.
 
I listened to the tower audio of this incident. It didn't sound like either the pilot or the controller were particularly alarmed when the pilot reported the door popped open and requested to come around and land.
 
An experimental Sonex in this video but several times I caught myself shouting at the screen ... "fly the airplane!"

 
I listened to the tower audio of this incident. It didn't sound like either the pilot or the controller were particularly alarmed when the pilot reported the door popped open and requested to come around and land.
You are right. Particularly the pilot sounded like this was no big deal. Makes the whole thing so difficult to understand.

 
I've wondered how much of the "fly the plane" can be taught and how much is just who you are. I've had a few emergencies in my flying days and never panicked. I have the 'it is what it is' mentality. If you can't fix it, deal with it. On the other hand, I've been in planes with other pilots and had to calm them down.
Stressor/response behavior can certainly be trained but I have no doubt there is "who you are" piece. But in this case, unless the person in the right seat went crazy, the pilot displayed absolutely no concern that it was anything other than a normal door open event.
 
You are right. Particularly the pilot sounded like this was no big deal. Makes the whole thing so difficult to understand.

He was new in the plane. Had just bought it. I'm betting it's as simple as him not recognizing the stall speed compared to other planes he had flown. I think it's entirely possible that the door didn't contribute much of anything to this sad event.
 
In the Navajo I have had the pilot hatch pop open a couple times on rotation.

Once with a full load of Pepsi the lower air stairs door fell open at rotation. The plane yawed hard to the left, so much I thought a car had run into me, but once around the pattern, land, inspect and close the door (company IA inspected), continue flight. Flying with the rear stairs open really cleaned all the dust out.!!
 
He was new in the plane. Had just bought it. I'm betting it's as simple as him not recognizing the stall speed compared to other planes he had flown. I think it's entirely possible that the door didn't contribute much of anything to this sad event.
There are several large assumptions built into that speculation which may or may not be true.
 
There are several large assumptions built into that speculation which may or may not be true.
Absolutely, that's why I said "my bet is", rather than "here's what happened". Definitely connecting dots based on incomplete data. But it's a fact that he was a newbie in the plane and my bet is that people aren't given that enough weight in their reading of the situation.
 
Absolutely, that's why I said "my bet is", rather than "here's what happened". Definitely connecting dots based on incomplete data. But it's a fact that he was a newbie in the plane...
We don't even know that. We have pretty solid information he just bought it, but that's about it. That doesn't mean he's a newbie to the model or to Mooneys in general. He might have been flying it fairly regularly before purchase. He might have several thousand hours of experience in multiple models (this is not a difficult airplane to fly). Even if a newbie, people don't buy a high performance retract and simply hop in with zero training so the "passenger," for that matter, the "pilot" might well have been a CFI providing insurance-required training.
 
In some ways, the problems with airplanes is that they are too reliable.

Emergencies are a theoretical situation that many never experience for real.

I flew for 30 years and never had an "emergency" (semi) until recently.

I did not handle it as well as I should have. Nor sure how it would have turned out if it was a serious one.

It was a wakeup call for me.
 
We don't even know that. We have pretty solid information he just bought it, but that's about it. That doesn't mean he's a newbie to the model or to Mooneys in general. He might have been flying it fairly regularly before purchase. He might have several thousand hours of experience in multiple models (this is not a difficult airplane to fly). Even if a newbie, people don't buy a high performance retract and simply hop in with zero training so the "passenger," for that matter, the "pilot" might well have been a CFI providing insurance-required training.
We do know that he managed to fall out of the sky in it.
 
He was new in the plane. Had just bought it. I'm betting it's as simple as him not recognizing the stall speed compared to other planes he had flown. I think it's entirely possible that the door didn't contribute much of anything to this sad event.

Agreed. Not sure if that graphic was the actual flight path. If so, looks like he may have overshot the runway when turning final. Maybe the classic stall-spin à la Langewieshe.

Also plausible that the door was not causal but contributed, either by distracting his focus during the approach, or in influencing his decision to try to salvage the approach rather than going around.
 
Agreed. Not sure if that graphic was the actual flight path. If so, looks like he may have overshot the runway when turning final. Maybe the classic stall-spin à la Langewieshe.

Also plausible that the door was not causal but contributed, either by distracting his focus during the approach, or in influencing his decision to try to salvage the approach rather than going around.
I had a similar thought. The Mooney apparently went in steeply -- it was difficult for the police helicopter ("Knight 2") to find it at first. If it went in under a more controlled attitude, it could have been expected to leave a more obvious and lengthy scar in the vegetation canopy.

Tower reported wind from 090 for another landing AC. If he indeed was blown or blowing through the final approach course and tried to correct with aileron and entered a base-to-final stall/spin, that scenario fits the available evidence.
 
Agreed. Not sure if that graphic was the actual flight path. If so, looks like he may have overshot the runway when turning final.
I understood that to be an artists rendition. I didn't think it was actual radar returns. So I haven't been taking it as gospel.

I had a similar thought. The Mooney apparently went in steeply -- it was difficult for the police helicopter ("Knight 2") to find it at first. If it went in under a more controlled attitude, it could have been expected to leave a more obvious and lengthy scar in the vegetation canopy.

Tower reported wind from 090 for another landing AC. If he indeed was blown or blowing through the final approach course and tried to correct with aileron and entered a base-to-final stall/spin, that scenario fits the available evidence.
Yep, and a glide in would have been more likely to result in a need for medical attention also. Everything about that wreckage is consistent with a spin. If the investigation confirms that, then the question will be why. And they may never be able to determine that beyond speculation.
 
Cool, have to read that now--had glanced at the book before. Thought for a minute you meant that Langewiesche once had a stall-spin accident himself. It's the fashionable thing to do these days. Never goes out of style.
Some people like the book, others hate it. His writing style can be a challenge to get past: PoA thread

I referred to it because he spends a lot of time in the book addressing low altitude stall-spin accidents.
 
We don't even know that. We have pretty solid information he just bought it, but that's about it. That doesn't mean he's a newbie to the model or to Mooneys in general. He might have been flying it fairly regularly before purchase. He might have several thousand hours of experience in multiple models (this is not a difficult airplane to fly). Even if a newbie, people don't buy a high performance retract and simply hop in with zero training so the "passenger," for that matter, the "pilot" might well have been a CFI providing insurance-required training.
Any observations about a crash can be picked apart.

But the scenario @rwellner98 has postulated is certainly well founded, possible to have occurred, and consistent with the observed events.

Unfamiliarity with the K model coupled with the ten knot difference between Vso and Vs1 could have caused a traffic pattern stall and spin. Obviously the configuration of the aircraft at the departure from controlled flight is unknown.
 
Any observations about a crash can be picked apart.

But the scenario @rwellner98 has postulated is certainly well founded, possible to have occurred, and consistent with the observed events.

Unfamiliarity with the K model coupled with the ten knot difference between Vso and Vs1 could have caused a traffic pattern stall and spin. Obviously the configuration of the aircraft at the departure from controlled flight is unknown.
I just like reading “my speculation is better than your speculation” comments.
 
I understood that to be an artists rendition. I didn't think it was actual radar returns. So I haven't been taking it as gospel.
That's how I took the thumbnail image and the progressive track from the YouTube video replaying the tower audio. I expect the track was based on the ADS-B Out data from the accident aircraft's transponder, and that data would be available to the NTSB investigator. I didn't presume the track was faithfully applied over a geo-referenced satellite image to more than a first order approximation.

Depending upon the installed avionics, there may be on-board logged data available as well.
 
Just to add something that I don't think has been stated explicitly. Between the various photos we can see all sides of the tail and there doesn't seem to be any damage inconsistent with spinning in. Specifically, it doesn't look like the door came completely off and damaged the tail as part of the sequence of events.
 
Back
Top