Turn on course / turn out - what exactly does that mean?

[kicktireslightfires]

When a controller says "cleared for takeoff...turn left on course" or a pilot says "ready for departure... left turnout" what exactly does that mean? I guess "on course" trips me up because on what course? Runway heading? Isn't that redundant because where else are you going to initiate a left turn from? Why not just say something like "turn left once airborne?"

If a controller says "turn left on course" does that mean I can make any degree turn in the left 180 section of the sky at any point after becoming airborne?

And similarly, does a pilot saying "left turnout" when calling tower for T/O clearance mean that aircraft wants to turn in the left 180 section of the sky after becoming airborne? Is there some reason the pilot doesn't "departing to the south" or "departing to the north west" or something more specific than just left or right?

Bonus question: Are there any rules about how soon once can turn after becoming airborne? I would have assumed you need to keep flying runway heading until you clear all runway below you, but my instructor told me "in most cases" you can turn any time as long as you don't find over any airport buildings. So I'm still not quite clear on what those rules are as for how soon you can turn. If it takes you 1,000 feet to get airborne and it's a 10,000 foot runway, that's a long time I'm going straight that maybe I don't have to?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Challenged]

I'll throw this in the ring for the "how soon can you turn" question: ...climbing to 400 feet above the departure end of runway elevation before making the initial turn... https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim_html/chap5_section_2.html

 

[PaulS]

When you depart a towered runway, you tell them your direction of flight, some places want to know when you call ground. If you depart 27 and want to fly to the north, you tell them ready to depart, north departure. They will tell you "right turn to north approved, clear for take off". Generally that's good enough, if you need to fly 010, then you fly that. Sometimes they will tell you depart runway heading, I'll call your turn. This is usually for traffic, you depart, fly runway heading and wait for them to tell you to turn. Even if you don't have a destination in mind they still will want to know what you are doing. So pick a direction, then stick with it until you are out of their airspace. If you want to maneuver for some reason in their airspace, just tell them what you want to do. There are a lot of variations that can happen, but it's mostly common sense, you want to be predictable, don't tell them you are flying north, then turn northeast or east.

I don't turn until at least the end of the runway. Sometimes they will ask you to turn when able, if not, you should wait until the end so you don't fly into incoming traffic. Remember, you will be flying at many different airports, the one you regularly fly at may not be that busy, but the one you visit may be very busy. Flying per the AIM is usually a good idea. Tower controllers will ask you if they need something. They may ask for things you aren't comfortable doing as a student, like a 360 or s turns. If you aren't comfortable, tell them unable. They will figure something else. Also, on initial call up tell them you are student pilot. They will take it easier on you.

 

[dtuuri]

Bonus question: Are there any rules about how soon once can turn after becoming airborne?

AIM 4-3-2.c.6. Departure. The flight path which begins after takeoff and continues straight ahead along the extended runway centerline. The departure climb continues until reaching a point at least 1/2 mile beyond the departure end of the runway and within 300 feet of the traffic pattern altitude.

 

[EdFred]

Your CFI did you a great disservice. This should have been covered before your solo XC and your checkride.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Some overthinking going on.

cleared for takeoff...turn left on course = "you told us you were going southeast of here. That's to your left. Go."

ready for departure... left turnout = "the route I planned is toward the left after I take off. That's where I am planning to go."

sometimes it's just English not some secret handshake jargon.

when to turn? VFR, that really should have been covered pre-solo. The only "rule" involved is a IFR one. A standard (there are published exceptions) departure profile calls for the initial turn at least 400 AGL for obstruction protection.

 

[PaulS]

Your CFI did you a great disservice. This should have been covered before your solo XC and your checkride.

Sounds like his instructor did talk about it, but I wouldn't follow some of his advice. For instance, his turn as soon as you want, just don't fly over airport buildings, I don't think is good advice as you'd be turning into the pattern, better to fly to the end of the runway IMO, better to be over the runway if your engine goes too. Pretty sure at my home base they wouldn't be happy about it, unless they ask you to do it.

 

[Larry in TN]

If an ATC instruction is not very specific that is because the controller didn't need to issue a more specific instruction. If more specific instructions are required, they will issue them.

So, "Left turn on course" means, after takeoff, make a left turn and proceed in the direction that you told ATC you wanted to go.

Start your turn at a position and altitude that could be reasonably expected of the type of aircraft you are flying. The AIM's guidance of 400' AFL comes from IFR procedures but it is something that a controller should reasonably expect. The "within 300' of pattern altitude" recommendation is for aircraft that are remaining in the traffic pattern and is intended to put you at TPA by the time you turn downwind so that you are not still climbing while on downwind creating a potential collision hazard.

If you want, or need, to do something other than what would be reasonably expected from the type of aircraft you are flying, make a specific request for what you want to do.

In general, a lack of detail in an ATC instruction means that those details don't matter to the controller at that time. Just don't surprise them with something unexpected.

 

[dtuuri]

The "within 300' of pattern altitude" recommendation is for aircraft that are remaining in the traffic pattern and is intended to put you at TPA by the time you turn downwind so that you are not still climbing while on downwind creating a potential collision hazard.

It doesn't make any less of a collision hazard for VFR departures to climb up through the downwind leg during their turn on course than for closed traffic aircraft to do it. I'd say unless tower approves an early turn on course the 300' restriction applies to departing traffic as well. As for IFR departures under VFR conditions—I'd think the same would apply to them, since IFR arrivals in VFR conditions should also comply with VFR patterns. IMO, those are the default behaviors lacking ATC approval/instruction to the contrary. "Left turn on course," though, would seem to imply that approval.

 

[PaulS]

It doesn't make any less of a collision hazard for VFR departures to climb up through the downwind leg during their turn on course than for closed traffic aircraft to do it. I'd say unless tower approves an early turn on course the 300' restriction applies to departing traffic as well. As for IFR departures under VFR conditions—I'd think the same would apply to them, since IFR arrivals in VFR conditions should also comply with VFR patterns. IMO, those are the default behaviors lacking ATC approval/instruction to the contrary. "Left turn on course," though, would seem to imply that approval.

I know the airport I fly out of they generally wouldn't like climbing straight out until 300 below PA if you need to turn on course, especially if a jet or faster traffic is taking off behind you. I do 400 feet if I'm past the RW end for a turn, I will turn lower if asked at the home drome.

 

[MtPJimB]

Sometimes airports will also have noise abatement procedures which will dictate at what altitude turns from runway heading can be made.

 

[dtuuri]

I do 400 feet if I'm past the RW end for a turn, I will turn lower if asked at the home drome.

You "do" it? Without approval, like all on your own? Or, they always tell you "Turn on course approved," or something similar?

 

[PaulS]

You "do" it? Without approval, like all on your own? Or, they always tell you "Turn on course approved," or something similar?

I posted above, what I do is tell them the direction I want to go, at the home field it's done when you tell them you are ready to go. They will say "Cleared for take off, northwest departure approved" unless they require something different. If I get no other instruction, I climb to 400 feet at least, and get beyond the end of the runway, then I turn. The complicating factor is that there is always traffic inbound or in the pattern there. Sometimes they will say to fly runway heading for traffic, look for xx traffic. Sometimes they clear to take off and for whatever reason they'll want me to turn before I'm ready so they will ask me to expedite the turn. If it's safe, I'll turn. I don't turn before the end of the runway unless they ask. If they don't approve the turn on the take off clearance, I will ask them if a turn is ok. Best we are all on the same page.

I was always taught not to turn before the end of the runway there, it's a busy delta. Seems like the safest thing to do. At uncontrolled fields I do the same. There are some uncontrolled fields around here with long runways and no tower. Just doesn't seem safe to me to blast through the downwind on a perpendicular course. There's a lot going on during takeoff and no radio traffic could be in the pattern.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

I don’t see it as a big deal. If you have to turn to get on course and got approval, just turn when you would turn crosswind or downwind, VFR or IFR. Thats a simple way to remember. Right turn? Just assume right traffic. It’s not like 200ft at 500-750ft/min is gonna make a big difference (what, 20 seconds?). You got better things to worry about.

 

[Wagondriver]

Once in a while I request an early turn out, I'm off in 400' there is nearly a mile and a half of runway still left. When I have requested an early turnout, they tell me to "maneuver at my discretion" or something like that. They expect everyone to turn to the southwest or northwest after takeoff, due to steeply rising terrain. One time, I hadn't specified a direction of flight, and they told me I could turn on course, I said "I'll fly runway heading if thats OK". There was a short pause and then a reply to fly runway heading.
If I'm not at a place I have been many times I will wait until 400' to make my turn or end of the runway, whichever comes first.

 

[Lindberg]

You "do" it? Without approval, like all on your own? Or, they always tell you "Turn on course approved," or something similar?

What approval is needed to make turns when VFR in controlled airspace?

FWIW, departing rwy 35 for a southerly destination recently, tower told me, "Cleared for takeoff rwy 35, left or right turn out approved." The ambivalence drove me crazy.

 

[dtuuri]

What approval is needed to make turns when VFR in controlled airspace?

What purpose do the AIM procedures at towered airports serve, then? Seems to me if the tower says only "Cleared for takeoff," the diagram and descriptive words should be followed by a responsible pilot, not to mention it would be expected by the tower unless they specify something else.

 

[Larry in TN]

I'd say unless tower approves an early turn on course the 300' restriction applies to departing traffic as well.

Based on what?

There is no 300' restriction.

4-3-2 c. 6. Is a definition of the Departure leg. It makes no requirements of pilots as to when they can turn away from the departure leg.

4-3-3 5. 5. Says "If remaining in the traffic pattern, commence turn to crosswind leg beyond the departure end of the runway within 300 feet of pattern altitude."

The regulations for operating in the vicinity of airports, 14 CFR 91.126 - 91.131, put no restrictions on when a VFR airplane departing an airport with an operating control tower can make his first turn. If it was important, the controller would provide restrictions in his control instructions.

 

[tspear]

For fun take offs, I have had an airport with an 11K runway the tower ask how quickly can I turn south west. I knew there was a pond that way, and nothing in the way, I said about 300ft AGl, tower said fine, cleared for take turn south west before 300ft AGL!
As I am turning toward the pond, tower cleared multiple inbound military craft to land opposite direction.
The tower let me fly and climb parallel to the marshal stack, it was kinda cool.
I get the feeling, if I did not take the low altitude turn, I would have had to wait a while. There were a lot of them, one right after the other.

Tim

 

[dtuuri]

Based on what?

91.129
...
(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an airport except in compliance with the following:

(1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established for that airport by the FAA.​

Isn't the standard traffic pattern as depicted in the AIM established by the FAA as a default where no special procedure exists? I don't take it as meaning VFR aircraft should follow IFR departure procedures. The standard pattern diagram indicates departing aircraft should either depart straight out or turn 45° in the direction of the normal pattern turns. The description of the departure leg is to at least 1/2 mile past the runway end and to 300 feet below pattern altitude.

I don't see why this is so controversial, since towers are very accommodating and usually take the initiative if the pilot doesn't request a turn on course first. But unless otherwise specified, I think the standard pattern applies to towers too not just uncontrolled fields and that should be kept in mind.

 

[schmookeeg]

direct-to
enter
enter
autopilot on
...back to netflix.

 

[Larry in TN]

(1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established for that airport by the FAA.​

Isn't the standard traffic pattern as depicted in the AIM established by the FAA as a default where no special procedure exists?

No. Generic recommendations for traffic patterns are not "departure procedures established for that airport by the FAA". ATC's instruction to "turn on course" is controlling.

 

[dtuuri]

ATC's instruction to "turn on course" is controlling.

Agreed, but I'm saying when there is no such instruction pilots should revert to the AIM guidance.

 

[Larry in TN]

Agreed, but I'm saying when there is no such instruction pilots should revert to the AIM guidance.

A takeoff clearance to a VFR aircraft with no instruction? That would be pretty rare.

Even so, as long as you don't do anything that would be unusual or unexpected for the type of airplane you are flying, there's no regulation which prevents you from turning. If ATC gives vague instructions it is because they don't need to give more specific instructions.

 

[dtuuri]

A takeoff clearance to a VFR aircraft with no instruction? That would be pretty rare.

Not an air traffic controller, but here's their marching orders:

3−9−10. TAKEOFF CLEARANCE a. When issuing a clearance for takeoff, first state the runway number followed by the takeoff clearance. PHRASEOLOGY− RUNWAY (number), CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF. EXAMPLE− “RUNWAY TWO SEVEN, CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF.”​

Nothing mentioned about "instructions" being standard.

Even so, as long as you don't do anything that would be unusual or unexpected for the type of airplane you are flying, there's no regulation which prevents you from turning.

Following the AIM, IMO, is expected. Turning and climbing through the pattern legs early without clearance just because there's no specific regulation against it would be careless and reckless operation. Say, for example, unbeknownst to you somebody else is in the pattern and on crosswind—your climbing out toward their flight path could be dangerous, where following the AIM guidance would not.

We'll have to leave it at that. Maybe a controller would like to entertain us for awhile?

 

[Lindberg]

A takeoff clearance to a VFR aircraft with no instruction? That would be pretty rare.

Even so, as long as you don't do anything that would be unusual or unexpected for the type of airplane you are flying, there's no regulation which prevents you from turning. If ATC gives vague instructions it is because they don't need to give more specific instructions.

"Runway 35, cleared for takeoff, left turnout approved."

What is the ATC instruction?

 

[Larry in TN]

"Runway 35, cleared for takeoff, left turnout approved."

What is the ATC instruction?

Left turn-out with no restrictions. If the controller needed restrictions, he would have included them. As long as you don't do anything that would not be reasonably expected from the type of aircraft you're flying, you're fine.

 

[Lindberg]

Left turn-out with no restrictions. If the controller needed restrictions, he would have included them. As long as you don't do anything that would not be reasonably expected from the type of aircraft you're flying, you're fine.

So "left turn out approved" is an instruction to turn left? Does that mean that when I'm leaving his airspace and he says, "Frequency change approved," I must change frequencies?

 

[geezer]

There is an incredible amount of flexibility in this subject.

Prior to 9-11, I landed on runway 18, DCA, empty 172, full flaps, full stop. I then requested departure from present position, and it was approved, as 90% of the runway was in front of me. At 100 feet AGL, I requested left turn up the Annacostia River (enroute to CGS), and that was approved.

For engine failure, I would have been turning back to the diagonal runway, so the early turn did not increase danger. Having just come north up the river, the only real option for engine failure had been the river, so no big deal.

At BWI, returning to CGS, I have been asked to turn on course at 300 feet, to clear the departure of an air carrier. Again, no problem, if the engine fails, I will be turning back to the diagonal runway, it is closer, and requires less turn, and maybe, I will use a suitable taxiway.

The point being made here is that any plan that both the controller and pilot are comfortable with is going to be approved.

 

[PaulS]

You know, don't get into semantics and one upmanship on this stuff. It's important that everyone is on the same page here. The controller doesn't know where you are going until you tell him. If I forget to tell them, they ask me. Then they clear me for take off with the direction I asked for approved, or they give me an instruction. You should tell them what direction you want, they really don't care and will approve it unless it creates some type of conflict. It is something you should expect when dealing with towers. If for some reason you both, the pilot and controller, forget to figure this out before you take off, and it turns into a conflict, that's just not good for anyone.

 

[Larry in TN]

So "left turn out approved" is an instruction to turn left? Does that mean that when I'm leaving his airspace and he says, "Frequency change approved," I must change frequencies?

I'm not sure what your point is.

If you tell ATC that you're going in a direction that is a left turn from the departure heading, and the controller tells you "left turn out approved" then you do need to turn left or tell him your plans have changed. Nowhere is it specified when you must make the left turn as long as it is something that can be reasonably expected for your aircraft type. If the controller needs to restrict when or how you make your turn, he will include that in his instructions.

 

[Lindberg]

I'm not sure what your point is.

If you tell ATC that you're going in a direction that is a left turn from the departure heading, and the controller tells you "left turn out approved" then you do need to turn left or tell him your plans have changed. Nowhere is it specified when you must make the left turn as long as it is something that can be reasonably expected for your aircraft type. If the controller needs to restrict when or how you make your turn, he will include that in his instructions.

My point is that "left turn out approved," is not an instruction. Not any more than "frequency change approved," is an instruction. As little as I fly around tower-controlled controlled airports, there have been occasions where I've recieved instructions on departure, e.g., "Rwy 1, cleared for takeoff, maintain rwy heading until 2,000' ft, contact approach on 1xx.xx," or "Rwy 18 cleared for takeoff make left traffic," and occasions where I've not recieved an instruction, e.g., "Rwy 35 cleared for takeoff, left turnout approved."

It bears repeating that when VFR, you don't need permission to do almost anything in G, E, D, or C airspace.

 

[luvflyin]

My point is that "left turn out approved," is not an instruction. Not any more than "frequency change approved," is an instruction. As little as I fly around tower-controlled controlled airports, there have been occasions where I've recieved instructions on departure, e.g., "Rwy 1, cleared for takeoff, maintain rwy heading until 2,000' ft, contact approach on 1xx.xx," or "Rwy 18 cleared for takeoff make left traffic," and occasions where I've not recieved an instruction, e.g., "Rwy 35 cleared for takeoff, left turnout approved."

It bears repeating that when VFR, you don't need permission to do almost anything in G, E, D, or C airspace.

How about tell the Tower yer gonna depart with a left turnout. Then when they say left turn out approved, depart and make a right turn out. The when they say something about it, give them your phone number to call and you can explain it all to them.

 

[Joe_B1]

This has got to be the dumbest thread ever on PoA!

 

[Dave S.]

There is no requirement. If the tower says left turn approve turn left at your discretion. If you want to make low turn without violating 91.13 then do so. There is no 300 foot requirement or expectation by controllers. VFR!

If you are IFR then the 400 foot diverse departure assumption is what the FAA bases it’s promise to you that you will avoid obstacles if you do so, along with a 200 fpnm climb gradient and 35 ft screen height. If you want to turn before that then best of luck to you...the FAA makes no promises.

Even though 91.175 makes the take off mims ODPs for 121 and 135 ops (excluding 91) you’ld be crazy not to abide by them.

that radio tower off the end of the runway can kill you flying a 91 op just as easily as a 121 or 135 op.
Tex

 

[dtuuri]

There is no 300 foot requirement or expectation by controllers. VFR!

What is it, then, that they DO expect when simply cleared for takeoff? Left turn? Right turn? Straight out? At what altitude are they expected to make any turn? They must have SOME expectation in order to control other traffic.

 

[PaulS]

What is it, then, that they DO expect when simply cleared for takeoff? Left turn? Right turn? Straight out? At what altitude are they expected to make any turn? They must have SOME expectation in order to control other traffic.

If they simply say "cleared for takeoff" and you haven't spoken with the controller about which direction you are going, then I suppose you can do what you want. But that'd be nuts in my opinion. You and the controller would have failed at a basic level.

 

[tspear]

If they simply say "cleared for takeoff" and you haven't spoken with the controller about which direction you are going, then I suppose you can do what you want. But that'd be nuts in my opinion. You and the controller would have failed at a basic level.

Depends on the traffic. I have flown into Tri-Cities in TN. Sometimes I get runway heading and specific directions, when other traffic around. Other times, the frequency is silent and I got cleared for takeoff.
There is no potential conflict, so the tower really does not care.

Tim

 

[dtuuri]

There is no potential conflict, so the tower really does not care.

Depends on what the meaning of "is" is. From the next moment on there could be traffic reporting to the tower for the first time and the controller would need to consider the expected flight path of the departed traffic. Another aircraft ready for departure from an intersecting runway comes immediately to mind as the most likely potential conflict.

 

[tspear]

Depends on what the meaning of "is" is. From the next moment on there could be traffic reporting to the tower for the first time and the controller would need to consider the expected flight path of the departed traffic. Another aircraft ready for departure from an intersecting runway comes immediately to mind as the most likely potential conflict.

Yes, the meaning of "is" is transient. When granted the clearance, the tower did not care. After I am a few hundred feet in the air, the tower may care. In the case of the intersecting runway, that other plane will be waiting if tower could not plan that far ahead and provide turn out or vector directions.
Such a level of distinction is like counting angels on the head of a pin. It is meaningless to us mere mortals.

Tim