Turn coordinator replacement - time required

ArrowFlyer86

ArrowFlyer86

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The Little Arrow That Could
How long should removing a turn coordinator then reinstalling it once it is repaired take?

I had mine pulled, repaired by AQI, then reinstalled. The shop is billing me for 3.5 hours of labor hours to do that (totally separate from the actual repair work done by AQI). I've never removed any instruments from the panel so IDK how long it takes, but that seems kind of crazy for 1 gauge. Thoughts?
 
A TC in the lower left most portion is an insultingly easy affair. 30 minutes combined R/R, provided I'm not trying to break the plastic overlay on removal (I did, it was dry rotted, as they all are lol). The PITA part is to sneak it below all the rat's nest of cables and such, since they tend to be long chassis compared to the electronic doodads replacing them these days. But given there was no wiring work or soldering required (like I had to swapping 3-pin TCs for a 4-pin AI, whoever decided to make TCs be 3 pin should be nutkicked), the physical removal/installation part of this instrument in that position is an inconsequential job. Not to belabor the point, but once again, you're being milked.

Now, you try to pull the vacuum AI from the top center spot? Yeah, that's a PITA, especially since you'd probably have to pull the DG below it and reinstall both boxes in order to make it somewhat workable. It would be possible to just remove the AI and not the DG, but oof what a contortion job that would be. At any rate, that job I'd be willing to give someone 400 bucks for their time and look the other way; I'm also willing to overhaul both instruments (AI and DG) at the same time given the ergonomics of that reinstallation. It's frustrating that the panel roof isn't removable, or at least have screw panel cutouts. The whole thing is unnecessarily cumbersome in that panel.

At any rate, they'll probably justify it by saying they had to prep the area, removing seats and reinstalling them. And of course, the paperwork takes an hour. You know, typical lawyer billing behavior antics. This is also why you'll hear a lot of "under supervision" stuff being bandied about in fac-built land. You're finding out why. Pennywise pounds foolish treatment on their part, given being bent over small stuff like this makes it less likely you'd go to them for a more lucrative job, like say pulling a cylinder or cracking open a case. But that's the way this captive side of the hobby seems to be anymore. At any rate, the only way not to get nickel and dimes on this type of recurrent small stuff is to....not today FAA, not today. :D

Good luck, sorry they're being nickel and dimey on ya.
 
Sounds high for labor. My last TC replacement was billed as $1100 parts (New Exchange) with labor merged in with other extensive work so unknown what the labor portion of just the TC was.
 
hindsight2020 said:
A TC in the lower left most portion is an insultingly easy affair. 30 minutes combined R/R, provided I'm not trying to break the plastic overlay on removal (I did, it was dry rotted, as they all are lol). The PITA part is to sneak it below all the rat's nest of cables and such, since they tend to be long chassis compared to the electronic doodads replacing them these days. But given there was no wiring work or soldering required (like I had to swapping 3-pin TCs for a 4-pin AI, whoever decided to make TCs be 3 pin should be nutkicked), the physical removal/installation part of this instrument in that position is an inconsequential job. Not to belabor the point, but once again, you're being milked.

Now, you try to pull the vacuum AI from the top center spot? Yeah, that's a PITA, especially since you'd probably have to pull the DG below it and reinstall both boxes in order to make it somewhat workable. It would be possible to just remove the AI and not the DG, but oof what a contortion job that would be. At any rate, that job I'd be willing to give someone 400 bucks for their time and look the other way; I'm also willing to overhaul both instruments (AI and DG) at the same time given the ergonomics of that reinstallation. It's frustrating that the panel roof isn't removable, or at least have screw panel cutouts. The whole thing is unnecessarily cumbersome in that panel.

At any rate, they'll probably justify it by saying they had to prep the area, removing seats and reinstalling them. And of course, the paperwork takes an hour. You know, typical lawyer billing behavior antics. This is also why you'll hear a lot of "under supervision" stuff being bandied about in fac-built land. You're finding out why. Pennywise pounds foolish treatment on their part, given being bent over small stuff like this makes it less likely you'd go to them for a more lucrative job, like say pulling a cylinder or cracking open a case. But that's the way this captive side of the hobby seems to be anymore. At any rate, the only way not to get nickel and dimes on this type of recurrent small stuff is to....not today FAA, not today. :D

Good luck, sorry they're being nickel and dimey on ya.
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Thank you for the detailed answer! That's exactly what I was afraid of. I just wanted to be sure before I go in there on a war path to pay the bill.

Yeah, my TC in the lower left. I'd read another post about it being easy to swap one out but wasn't sure if that was universally true. Their labor to R/R cost as much as the job AQI did. All in about a 1 AMU job.

But I guess this just confirms what I already knew. A shop that considers installing a washer a 400$ job should be expected to runup the bill whenever possible.
 
After building my own plane and servicing it for 6 years I've learned that the complexity of the task rarely has anything to do with the time it takes to complete it. I've spent more than an hour getting a AN4 screw on a bolt many times. The simplest job always takes 4 times longer than I think it will. Even when I've done the same task many times before.

I get that those who don't work in aircraft mx sometimes don't understand how some tasks take so long. But it no longer surprises me when I hear of hours quoted for work by aircraft mechanics. Especially those that want to stay in business.

Not saying I know anything about replacing your tc!

Mine was quite easy - after I removed both sections of the cowl, the glare shield and related accessories. Can't remember exactly, but it was probably an all day job for me.
 
I pulled mine out, shipped to get refurbished, reinstalled and had my mechanic look at it. Mine is an old cessna style with a 12V +/- wire and four screws on the face to secure to panel.

30 min to remove, 30 min to install, plus 30 min to shoot the breeze with the mechanic. That doesn’t count time packing/shipping.

I think some TC units may have a data wire that drives an AP.
 
I change my own oil and do as much as I can to save $, but if I ever own my own shop the sign will read: “This is not the Red Cross”. :cool:
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
I've never removed any instruments from the panel so IDK how long it takes, but that seems kind of crazy for 1 gauge. Thoughts?
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Was the 3.5 hours itemized at all?
What type aircraft and where was the TC located in the panel?
Is the TC a standalone instrument?
Was the shop a repair station?
 
Bell206 said:
Was the 3.5 hours itemized at all?
What type aircraft and where was the TC located in the panel?
Is the TC a standalone instrument?
Was the shop a repair station?
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The TC is a standalone instrument.
The shop is a cirrus service center, but I don't see anything in their description saying it's a certified repair station. The normal shop I bring it to is a Class IV part 145 repair station (and does good work).

Invoice
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Snapshot of panel, it's a traditional layout (sorry, this is the best pic I have easy access to)
upload_2023-4-17_14-35-13.png
 

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texasclouds said:
I change my own oil and do as much as I can to save $
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I change my own oil too and that has worked out well, it saves a couple hundred dollars every 1-2 months!

texasclouds said:
if I ever own my own shop the sign will read: “This is not the Red Cross”. :cool:
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If you do ever own your shop you shouldn't run it as a charity, but maybe also find a happy middle ground between working pro bono and actively breaking things in the airplane to run up the bill :)
 
Did you bring the airplane to them or did they have to work on location, or tow it? Any of which can add a little time for removal and again for installation. Occasionally a TC can be difficult to access but normally about .5 to remove. Figure another .5 for the A&P to call AQI, package, and ship. Another .5 for the A&P to receive the overhauled unit, confirm work accomplished, numbers match paperwork, etc. Figure another .5 to install and test. Another .5 for logbook work and tidying up for the next job. Possibly a little more if hardware is messed up for some reason.
 
Jdm said:
Did you bring the airplane to them or did they have to work on location, or tow it? Any of which can add a little time for removal and again for installation. Occasionally a TC can be difficult to access but normally about .5 to remove. Figure another .5 for the A&P to call AQI, package, and ship. Another .5 for the A&P to receive the overhauled unit, confirm work accomplished, numbers match paperwork, etc. Figure another .5 to install and test. Another .5 for logbook work and tidying up for the next job. Possibly a little more if hardware is messed up for some reason.
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Brought the airplane to them, it was at their shop for annual. I called AQI for them since they were sluggish.
 
@ArrowFlyer86 - How do you like your freshly overhauled TC?

Mine was screaming like a demon before it was switched out. After the swap, the plane is so quiet (when engine not running) that I could (potentially) forget the master power is on and just walk out. lol. Until the flashing strobes caught my eye. But really the difference in the sound was massive. I was pretty happy with my new TC.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
Snapshot of panel, it's a traditional layout
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If anything maybe .5 hrs on the plus side. How does the shop round time off? Regardless, depending on the organization of things behind your panel to get the instrument out/in could easily make up for that difference. Also keep in mind this wasn't a fluid work scope since the instrument was sent out for OH.
 
Bell206 said:
If anything maybe .5 hrs on the plus side. How does the shop round time off? Regardless, depending on the organization of things behind your panel to get the instrument out/in could easily make up for that difference. Also keep in mind this wasn't a fluid work scope since the instrument was sent out for OH.
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Nearest rounding they do is 0.25 hours. They billed me for 3.5 hours @ 118$/hr for R/R.
There was zero troubleshooting involved on their part... I told them I wanted it shipped to AQI for repair.

Mongoose Aviator said:
@ArrowFlyer86 - How do you like your freshly overhauled TC?

Mine was screaming like a demon before it was switched out. After the swap, the plane is so quiet (when engine not running) that I could (potentially) forget the master power is on and just walk out. lol. Until the flashing strobes caught my eye. But really the difference in the sound was massive. I was pretty happy with my new TC.
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Mine still has some noise to it but the pitch has changed. Rather than being a low-pitched sound that takes a little bit to wind up, it's a high-pitched sound. Threw me off the first time I started it up.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
There was zero troubleshooting involved on their part...
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The rounding probably is the .5 result in the bill. I don't find 3 hours to prep/remove/install/paperwork on a mid-panel instrument to be excessive. If you have questions ask the shop for an itemized bill. But the complete job is more than 4 screws and an electrical connection times two.
 
Bell206 said:
The rounding probably is the .5 result in the bill. I don't find 3 hours to prep/remove/install/paperwork on a mid-panel instrument to be excessive. If you have questions ask the shop for an itemized bill. But the complete job is more than 4 screws and an electrical connection times two.
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Before I went to the shop with a concern on billable time I wanted to consult the group here to get a feel for whether it's even in the right ballpark.
But if you're thinking 3-4h isn't excessive that's a helpful data point. Though I'm not sure what paperwork they're doing, seeing as how all the documentation I received is a 1 sentence log book entry and an 8130 print-out from the shop that did the actual overhaul of the unit. So far as I can tell the shop that overhauled had the burden of doing the paperwork, and that was factored into their price. These guys just had to summarize it in a log entry (unless I'm missing something).

Overall it just sounds like there's a decent amount of variation with this component. Some folks here are saying it's 30 mins all-in R/R -- while others are saying 4h isn't unreasonable. Net result is that I don't have sufficient cause to challenge them, which is OK. I'm about out of steam from all the other **** I have with them.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
Mine still has some noise to it but the pitch has changed. Rather than being a low-pitched sound that takes a little bit to wind up, it's a high-pitched sound. Threw me off the first time I started it up.
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Yeah... I would not be happy with it still sounding after the work was done.
 
Mongoose Aviator said:
Yeah... I would not be happy with it still sounding after the work was done.
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That's what noise canceling headphones are for :) (joking, of course)

AQI is a reputable shop it seems and if they OH it for <500$ vs like 1800$ for a new unit... I'll deal with a little high-pitch sound on wind-up. But yeah, knowing that you got yours OH and is silent makes me a little peeved haha.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
But yeah, knowing that you got yours OH and is silent makes me a little peeved haha.
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I do not think mine was OH. It was listed as "New Exchange". I had a lot of other stuff being done and this was a minor "while you are at it" so I really was not paying it much attention. So, I am not sure at the moment exactly what it was. Based on the part price $1100 and "New Exchange", I think? it was a new unit with the old one being sent back for a core charge? Maybe?

Regardless. I still would have expected your unit to be just as silent as mine? On the other hand I have never rebuilt or opened up a TC and have no idea what is inside other than stuff that needs electricity and makes a lot of noise before it dies.
 
texasclouds said:
I change my own oil and do as much as I can to save $, but if I ever own my own shop the sign will read: “This is not the Red Cross”. :cool:
Click to expand...

How about the firstborn? :p


ArrowFlyer86 said:
The TC is a standalone instrument.
The shop is a cirrus service center, but I don't see anything in their description saying it's a certified repair station. The normal shop I bring it to is a Class IV part 145 repair station (and does good work).

Invoice
View attachment 116647

Snapshot of panel, it's a traditional layout (sorry, this is the best pic I have easy access to)
View attachment 116645
Click to expand...

Hitting you up for the freight...pretty chicken dung if you ask me. Well, at least it is a line item, and they didn't try to hide it somewhere.
 
Don't they have to level your plane to install a TC?
IMO 3.5 hours labor is not out of line.
I would be worried about alienating the shop if you complain about an hour of labor.
I had mine replaced with a rebuilt Midwest a few years ago. I remember I got charged freight to get it to the avionics shop. I would have to dig up the paperwork to see what I was charged for the labor or the part.
 
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I’ve had to pull instruments a 2nd and even a 3rd time to get to the bottom of a problem. If it’s making noise have them send it back to AQI ASAP.. This is not uncommon. They’ll make it right.
Yes, customer is charged freight on the first round. Warranty shipping is sometimes covered.
 
When addressing the 3.5 hours with the shop I’d ask for an explanation of the time involved rather than using a guns drawn approach. It might be legit. But, if they can’t explain it with a straight face and facts than you can probably validate your suspicions of being overcharged. I can’t see a simple TC taking that long, but if any indirects are billed with it (seat removal, paperwork, phone calls, etc.) than it adds up quick. I agree you can’t give away work for free, but transparency is what keeps everyone on the same page.
 
Ray, do you know how much a nav light costs?
About a thousand dollars.
Do you know how much a turn coordinator costs?
About a thousand dollars.
 
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AQI is a reputable shop it seems ...The operative words are "it seems."

FWIW, which may be nothing, I have had terrible experience with AQI. The money it cost me in return shipping and mechanics' time to remove and reinstall two defective "overhauls" far exceeded the savings from AQI's low prices. I would never use AQI again.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
Apparently it is… my mistake…
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Too funny. We all learn that lesson the hard way. I did right after I bought my first plane. Live and learn.

I have been pretty happy with independent A&P's. Just a guy working out of his van. They are making good bucks doing what they enjoy, and don't have to cover a lot of fixed overhead, so they feel less pressure to overcharge. It's not like you need a shop to swap a gauge. Four screws and two wires.

Also, you can do 90% of the work yourself. Pull the gauge, send it for overhaul or exchange, then have the A&P install and log it. Or install yourself and have him check and log, if he is willing and you are reasonably handy. All totally legal, and probably cost you an hour of labor tops. I have found numerous A&P's that are perfectly happy doing things this way for minor repairs, as long as you are a good listener and willing to learn. It is easy money for them.
 
I would also agree that 3.5 hours sounds reasonable.

To comment on other posts here, they should also be billing you for paperwork, parts research, packaging ect. Businesses cant give time away.
 
A TC swap “ should” be fairly quick.

As others have mentioned actually gaining access and getting it in and out can be

a task.

Not familiar with a Cirrus but want to comment that mfg often cram items

together with no apparent concern regarding Mx.

Early Mooneys had removeable panels in front of the windshield to allow access

to the back of the panel. A Tech would be doing the owner a disservice if the area

was not properly resealed after the task is complete. Using a convenient sealer

like silicone or some Pro-seal types may make the panels very difficult to remove

and may cause damage to them.

A certain Super Cub had the panel loaded up for IFR. Radios were mounted below

the bottom edge of the panel . So to deal with anything further up the radios had

to be removed and you work through holes in the mounting boxes.

The Artificial Horizon is way at the top so instruments in the way have to be

removed to clear the path. The instruments themselves are such a tight fit that

their Cases were filed to allow them to fit.Adding to the joy are the individual

post lights and wiring. Of course you would want to assure the Static System is

free of leaks as you work your way back out too!


Fortunately I usually have all winter to address the issues. That allows

time for the cuts on arms and hands to heal between sessions!
 
Did the plane sit in their hangar for x weeks while waiting for the overhauled unit to come back?
 
I am not a mechanic by profession but work on cars, boats and motorcycles for friends. Although I don’t charge I am always asked why did a simple job take so long. My stock answer is “There are no more 5 minute jobs left, our forefathers used them all up. There are some 10 minute and 30 minute left but are hard to find. Most we can get now are 1 hour jobs or more”. As we say in work once you start peeling back the layers of the onion you may find other problems that hamper the job.
 
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