TSA delays......

[midwestpa24]

Another indirect piece of evidence is that there have been no attacks on the lines to go through TSA screening in the US. I mean a terrorist could kill nearly as many people with a well placed attack on these lines. But yet it hasn’t happened which suggests that there are other factors preventing such attacks.

Not true. The gunman attacks at LAX and FLL come to mind quite quickly. I also seem to remember one that was thwarted, I think at MSY.

 

[NHWannabe]

I got that message. My flight from RDU was noon and I had to Uber through RTP traffic on I-40 so I opted to go ahead and get there early and eat breakfast at the terminal so I summoned my Uber at 6 am. When I got there security was already a zoo and they were doing individual dog sniffing searches on everyone. I did not have pre-chek so I took off my shoes and was taking the electronics out of my bag when the agent yelled at me “Why did you take off your shoes!?” I thought I was supposed to in regular security, said I, she said, “Don’t do anything we don’t tell you to do!” Has the shoe thing changed? I can’t keep up with this nonsense.

Same thing happened to me a couple of years ago at MSP. The rules change at their whim, if they get really backed up they start waiving things like taking off your shoes, taking out your laptop, etc...just reinforces that this is all theater.

 

[RKW]

If you want to know what an effective revamp of airline security would look like, fly El Al. Then you'll see why it really isn't a realistic solution for an entire country with the geographic size and quantity of flights of the U.S.

 

[NHWannabe]

- A requirement that all checked baggage be screened by explosive detection devices by December 31, 2002
-More robust screening equipment for passengers.
When you see how some passengers treat flight crews you know they would treat security screeners the same way even more if they were not wearing a federal uniform.


That's the GQP way, anything done should create a profit for a business. All of Congress was R controlled at the time.

My opinion is that it was an opportunity to shift liability for security lapses and the costs of equipment from airlines, airports or security companies and onto the Feds. I'd much rather have someone that has a sense of duty rather than a profit motive in that position.

More robust? My brother ran the NYS courthouse in Lower Manhattan when they first installed airport metal detectors, they used the same setting mandated at the time by the FAA. When they started testing they had to increase the sensitivity because they could bring knives and some guns through the detectors without the alarm going off.
The failure rate of TSA to detect weapons, etc is through the roof.

 

[NHWannabe]

Yes, the perennial "but TSA makes me feel safe" arguments, as we dump $8 billion a year down their marginally effective processes.

Without even touching their dismal Red Team test results (not one point in time at one airport, but years of awful data), I sure feel safe queued up in long lines they forced to the INSECURE side of the airport....

Nope, nothing bad could ever happen there.

That pic looks like my experience in Denver a few years ago at 5AM on a Wed.

 

[midwestpa24]

I've held off really jumping too much into this conversation so far, so here it goes. My background, I work at a small commercial airport, and work with TSA daily.

I am not a TSA fan boy by any means. I don't disagree with a lot of what has been said. But I do feel the need to add some information to the discussion.

The TSA most of us know and love are the checkpoint screeners. They are obviously the most visible part of the organization. What many people either don't know or forget, is there is a much bigger part of the organization you don't see behind the scenes. Unlike the screeners, that part actually does do more to address the shortcomings from 9/11 than most realize.

1. Intelligence - Before 9/11 not much effort was put into intelligence on terrorist organizations. Yeah we watched them, knew they existed, but they were in a low threat category. There is obviously a lot bigger push on this side now that we know what they are truly capable of with their resources.

2. Coordination - This goes hand in hand with the intel side. Several of the 9/11 hijackers were under various suspicion or even surveillance prior to the attack. The problem is several different agencies were involved, and each had a single piece of the puzzle, but none saw the big picture. Even during the attack, all of the agencies involved were working from their own angles and not coordinating, slowing the response process. Everything happened quite quickly, and it may not have made a difference, but it certainly didn't help. Today TSA is monitoring events both here and abroad, and has people watching for trends. An event at a single airport may be just a single blip, but if they start seeing similar information coming from multiple airports they can catch the trend faster and respond faster.

At the end of the day, 9/11 was a one-time event in my mind. It worked because we never imagined someone would weaponize an airliner full of people, much less 4 of them simultaneously. It worked because it hadn't been done before. Now we know that, and even the general passenger won't allow it to happen again. United 93 is proof of that. As soon as the passengers realized what was going to happen, they took action. The key now is to look ahead to the next event, and try to predict and prevent it.

As far as the screeners go, TSA or privatization I think is 6 in one hand, half dozen in another. It can be pro/conned to death from both angles. My one opinion is that public safety is easier done by government than private industry. Private industry is going to be profit-driven by its very nature. Doesn't take long before profit takes precedence over life safety. Look at some of the dirty things we've seen from big industry, all to save a dime. Granted government has its own problems, and isn't known for efficiency either.

 

[midwestpa24]

One last thing to add about the original subject, delays. One of the big problems we are dealing with daily is that with such a high percentage of travellers being leisure, that also means they are not seasoned travellers. It is taking longer for the airlines to handle these travellers, and TSA to screen these travellers, because they simple don't understand the rules and procedures and are causing a scene when they don't get their way. The business travellers that used to make up a majority knew the rules, the shortcuts, and could breeze through an airport terminal in minutes without causing a fuss.

You wouldn't believe the things we've seen and heard in the last year.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I think some are missing the point or don't have the experience to know that there were lines at security, delays and plenty of jokes to be made about the security well before the TSA!‍

I had already been furloughed from my first airline job before 9/11 happened. I definitely remember what it was like before TSA was created.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

At the end of the day, 9/11 was a one-time event in my mind. It worked because we never imagined someone would weaponize an airliner full of people, much less 4 of them simultaneously. It worked because it hadn't been done before. Now we know that, and even the general passenger won't allow it to happen again. United 93 is proof of that. As soon as the passengers realized what was going to happen, they took action. The key now is to look ahead to the next event, and try to predict and prevent it.

I don no object to anything you’ve said. I just came to a different conclusion.

The portion of your post that I quoted is basically the starting point of my assessment of how useful TSA is to me as a tax payer and someone that spends way to much time inside airliners. I came to the same conclusion you did: 9/11 was an event that could only happen once. That opportunity is gone with no further action required by the government to prevent a repeat.

As to the other behind the scenes benefits of TSA. Well. I guess if you think they actually get access to real time raw intelligence from all the other agencies like congress mandated so they can create a big picture then perhaps worthwhile. I think they fail miserably at those tasks. I don’t think they are included in the circle by other agencies. I don’t think they are performing a significant role in our intelligence community at all. They pretend to really well. At the end of the day I think those security screeners are all they really do. The rest of it is an act to maintain funding.

 

[SkyChaser]

One last thing to add about the original subject, delays. One of the big problems we are dealing with daily is that with such a high percentage of travellers being leisure, that also means they are not seasoned travellers. It is taking longer for the airlines to handle these travellers, and TSA to screen these travellers, because they simple don't understand the rules and procedures and are causing a scene when they don't get their way. The business travellers that used to make up a majority knew the rules, the shortcuts, and could breeze through an airport terminal in minutes without causing a fuss.

You wouldn't believe the things we've seen and heard in the last year.

This is a very good point. I am actually flying today - sitting in the Atlanta airport right now, waiting on my connecting flight. I have never seen lines at the security checkpoint like I did earlier. I was trying to go through security this morning at 4:30am and it took 50 minutes to get through. I have never experienced that long a wait - usually I'm through in less than ten minutes even if it's busy. The longest I'd waited before was twenty minutes and that included the bag inspection due to the pocketknife I'd forgotten in my purse. There were so many "first-time fliers" today, though, that it really messed up the flow and backed up the line.

 

[midwestpa24]

There were so many "first-time fliers" today, though, that it really messed up the flow and backed up the line.

The people that have to be told ten times to empty their pockets. The people that try to take a full size suitcase through security. The people that set off alarms that now have to be resolved, turning a 30 second screening into a 5 minute screening. The people that show up 5 minutes before their departure time and throw a fit, then tie up the gate agent for 30 minutes to rebook them.

See it every day these days.

 

[Ken Whitson]

My solution for airline safety: More people like The Magnificent Seven of Flight 93.

If only the government could learn to trust its citizens to do the right thing.

 

[Everskyward]

This is a number of years old but gives some insight into the private screening at San Francisco.

I'll bet some of the people interviewed who were uneasy with privatization don't know that there are contractors doing this job already. Some of the people posting here didn't know it. Pretty sure many who have cleared security at SFO don't know it either. I only vaguely remembered it.

 

[EdFred]

If only the government could learn to trust its citizens to do the right thing.

Hahahahahahahaha. That would put them out of business (the politicians that is)

 

[Robert Gee]

One last thing to add about the original subject, delays. One of the big problems we are dealing with daily is that with such a high percentage of travellers being leisure, that also means they are not seasoned travellers. It is taking longer for the airlines to handle these travellers, and TSA to screen these travellers, because they simple don't understand the rules and procedures and are causing a scene when they don't get their way. The business travellers that used to make up a majority knew the rules, the shortcuts, and could breeze through an airport terminal in minutes without causing a fuss.

You wouldn't believe the things we've seen and heard in the last year.

This is my fav., It says to me that the only thing wrong with America is selfish and ignorant Americans

 

[schmookeeg]

Is there a version of "Godwin's Law" that covers invocation of September 11?

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Is there a version of "Godwin's Law" that covers invocation of September 11?

I don’t think so. I think it’s impossible to have a conversation about the TSA without it being part of the conversation. Especially if I’m in the room. ;-)

 

[schmookeeg]

I don’t think so. I think it’s impossible to have a conversation about the TSA without it being part of the conversation. Especially if I’m in the room. ;-)

Yeah I get it in this context, my question was a nonobvious nonsequitor and added no value to the argument in progress

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Yeah I get it in this context, my question was a nonobvious nonsequitor and added no value to the argument in progress

I thought it was funny as hell. I laughed and found value in your contribution.

 

[Dav8or]

But only for holiday travelers. It will tank again soon as kids go back to school and business significant limit travel.

it is really crazy now. I have never seen an airport so full of people who have no clue how to travel, how to board and how to deplane. The real tell is even with the full airports there’s only about a dozen people in the sky club so that tells you how much business travel is going on right now.

I suspect this trend to continue. The pandemic taught us that we don't always have to meet face to face to conduct business. I expect business travel to be much less going forward COVID, or no COVID.

 

[midwestpa24]

I suspect this trend to continue. The pandemic taught us that we don't always have to meet face to face to conduct business. I expect business travel to be much less going forward COVID, or no COVID.

I still expect a significant rebound from the business sector. There may be some travel that can be replaced. But from what I've seen and experienced, we are getting Zoom fatigued. Where there have been options for face-to-face interaction, people are jumping at the chance. In the business world, if I'm looking for a vendor for a widget, and the competition is between the guy telling me for the 100th time "You're on mute" or the guy that just walked in my office and shook my hand, who do I choose? Never doubt the power of personal connections.

 

[kayoh190]

Now now, some of those airline pilots frequent this forum. Be more tactful.

See, this is why I keep pestering you. Time to slack off and collect fat checks like the rest of us lazy bastages!

 

[NoBShere]

in past couple months been through Ohare, Salt lake City, Reagan, San Jose, San Fran and Denver. I suppose there were fewer business travelers but haven't noticed anything different or long lines.

 

[donjohnston]

Same thing happened to me a couple of years ago at MSP. The rules change at their whim, if they get really backed up they start waiving things like taking off your shoes, taking out your laptop, etc...just reinforces that this is all theater.

Way back when this all started, the rule was to hold up your ticket/boarding pass before going through the metal detector. As I was getting ready to walk through (holding up my boarding pass), the TSA rocket scientist gave me some crap about holding up my boarding pass. Said I shouldn't have anything in my hands. I said that the last time through this very same security line I was required to present my boarding pass while walking through the detector. He said "We like to keep you on your toes."

What an a-hole.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

Not true. The gunman attacks at LAX and FLL come to mind quite quickly. I also seem to remember one that was thwarted, I think at MSY.

Interesting. By the LAX attack, do you mean Ciancia's attack on the TSA employees? Not quite a terrorist attack on the passengers waiting in line and was precipitated by the existence of the TSA itself. He clearly thought of them as aggressive tyrants.

Found the shooting at KFLL. Hardly an attack by a terrorist. The murderer was a schizophrenic and "Later in April 2017, the investigators stated that no link to terrorism was found."

Thus these shootings hardly provide evidence that terrorists are engaging in attacks on the TSA security lines at airports.

Can you provide more information about the KMSY incident?

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

At the end of the day, 9/11 was a one-time event in my mind. It worked because we never imagined someone would weaponize an airliner full of people, much less 4 of them simultaneously. It worked because it hadn't been done before. Now we know that, and even the general passenger won't allow it to happen again. United 93 is proof of that. As soon as the passengers realized what was going to happen, they took action. The key now is to look ahead to the next event, and try to predict and prevent it.

As far as the screeners go, TSA or privatization I think is 6 in one hand, half dozen in another. It can be pro/conned to death from both angles. My one opinion is that public safety is easier done by government than private industry. Private industry is going to be profit-driven by its very nature. Doesn't take long before profit takes precedence over life safety. Look at some of the dirty things we've seen from big industry, all to save a dime. Granted government has its own problems, and isn't known for efficiency either.

Many good points about things other than screening to be done to help with safety. And agreed that this was a one-time event almost certainly never to be repeated. But if it was a one time attack mode that can't be repeated and there is no evidence good evidence that mass screening helps prevent such attacks, I guess my main point is that we should stop spending massive amounts of money on screening and invading everyone's privacy, whether that is done by private screeners or government screeners. Moving to private screeners inside the TSA's Screening Partnership Program is just a first step in my mind.

I think the main solution is to let the airlines bear the liability for the use of their equipment as weapons and then make their own decisions about what is needed. I would agree that letting them continue to be immune from such liability and also letting them decide on the rules is a formula for disaster.

 

[NoBShere]

Many good points about things other than screening to be done to help with safety. And agreed that this was a one-time event almost certainly never to be repeated. But if it was a one time attack mode that can't be repeated and there is no evidence good evidence that mass screening helps prevent such attacks, I guess my main point is that we should stop spending massive amounts of money on screening and invading everyone's privacy, whether that is done by private screeners or government screeners. Moving to private screeners inside the TSA's Screening Partnership Program is just a first step in my mind.

I think the main solution is to let the airlines bear the liability for the use of their equipment as weapons and then make their own decisions about what is needed. I would agree that letting them continue to be immune from such liability and also letting them decide on the rules is a formula for disaster.

I'm all for spending money appropriately and would love to see better of funding of public education. However, I have never felt my privacy has been invaded through the airport screening process.

Funny story, my wife and i were coming back from a vacation somewhere a few years ago. We had put all of our combined dirty clothes into one suit case and everything else in another. I happened to have the dirty clothes suite case and was picked for a search. I can't remember if it was random or something looked odd on the xray. So I go to the end with the TSA guy. My wife is just past the screening area and is smiling, kind of laughing and I didn't quite realize why. Then the TSA dude started opening the suit case and my wife's clothes were on top. He looked at me and looked really uncomfortable. I simply shrugged and said "You know..." I still chuckle when I think of the TSA guy's reaction.

 

[Morgan3820]

In all do respect, your link offers no ideas of how to do it, but rather it should be done.
That is not an answer.

However, the Israelis do it.

 

[EdFred]

You know what should be done.

Someone needs to get a group of people together, and go around to these airports with the crazy wait times, and demonstrate what COULD happen. Get the local news involved and film it like it's a news investigation like they do, get it some attention, and show that the most dangerous part of flying isn't the drive to the airport, the flying, but the waiting in line. There's 0 security between parking your car and the TSA checkpoint. Show THAT to be the flaw with the TSA - repeatedly, loudly, and send the footage to your congresspeople with a note saying:

"6000 of your constituents could be dead because of you."

And do it WITHOUT the use of firearms.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

You know what should be done.

Someone needs to get a group of people together, and go around to these airports with the crazy wait times, and demonstrate what COULD happen. Get the local news involved and film it like it's a news investigation like they do, get it some attention, and show that the most dangerous part of flying isn't the drive to the airport, the flying, but the waiting in line. There's 0 security between parking your car and the TSA checkpoint. Show THAT to be the flaw with the TSA - repeatedly, loudly, and send the footage to your congresspeople with a note saying:

"6000 of your constituents could be dead because of you."

And do it WITHOUT the use of firearms.

It is a good idea. A good choice of airports might be DEN. The line area before the TSA there is sort of frightening from a security perspective. Fairly enclosed and with unsecured galleries above on all sides. It would be like a shooting gallery for terrorists.

It might be hard to get news coverage actually. Various people would argue that it would be irresponsible to show such an attack mode and it shouldn’t be covered.

If I were doing this I would definitely carry a firearm at least concealed if legal. There are some crazy people out there who will attack peaceful demonstrators. Or sometimes you can coordinate with the local police who will provide discrete undercover officers to ensure things stay peaceful. For this particular demonstration open carry, where legal, would not likely add to the point. Though if news coverage was otherwise lacking, would likely provoke it.

The other possible downside is that the fearful will then argue that this just shows that the area of TSA screening needs to be even further expanded.

 

[Albany Tom]

The people that have to be told ten times to empty their pockets. The people that try to take a full size suitcase through security. The people that set off alarms that now have to be resolved, turning a 30 second screening into a 5 minute screening. The people that show up 5 minutes before their departure time and throw a fit, then tie up the gate agent for 30 minutes to rebook them.

See it every day these days.

The problem isn't that the people don't understand the system, the problem is that the people that designed the system don't understand people. Or the purpose of government, in my opinion.

It reminds of the story of the manager who said "My employees are idiots! I sent this memo to all of them, and nobody understood it." Clearly, the manager is the idiot, as he either can't write or doesn't understand his staff.

I'm not in ANY way blaming the TSA line staff. They're stuck doing the job they were hired to do. It's the plan that's flawed. To misquote another guy, banks don't fail because tellers count the money incorrectly. They fail because of gross management errors. Same as TSA. Silly in my view to blame either the TSA field staff or the passengers.

 

[Ghery]

Yes. There’s a shortage of TSA workers. Really shortage of workers in every sector. So combined with the increases travel demand, the lines have been crazy lately. If you fly often, I’d suggest purchasing Clear. You get to cut to the front of the Pre-Check line. Also download the MyTSA app. They show approximate wait times and average wait times depending on the time and day.

TSA workers? The drones actually work? That's news to me.

Let's not forget why we have it. And the answer isn't "government overreach," at least not to me.

We have it because some congress critter got up on his hind legs and said that you wouldn't professionaiize if you didn't fedalirize. Pure BS. Change the rules a bit and those highjackers wouldn't have had their box cutters. You didn't need a bunch of McDonalds rejects pawing through passengers' stuff.

This is fantastic news. I am waiting for United to send me this email without me having to call and beg.

Nice thing about being a million miler with UA - I'm locked in for life.

 

[Bob Noel]

The problem isn't that the people don't understand the system, the problem is that the people that designed the system don't understand people. Or the purpose of government, in my opinion.
.

correction: the problem is that the people that designed the system don't understand people nor security

 

[luvflyin]

I'm all for spending money appropriately and would love to see better of funding of public education. However, I have never felt my privacy has been invaded through the airport screening process.

Funny story, my wife and i were coming back from a vacation somewhere a few years ago. We had put all of our combined dirty clothes into one suit case and everything else in another. I happened to have the dirty clothes suite case and was picked for a search. I can't remember if it was random or something looked odd on the xray. So I go to the end with the TSA guy. My wife is just past the screening area and is smiling, kind of laughing and I didn't quite realize why. Then the TSA dude started opening the suit case and my wife's clothes were on top. He looked at me and looked really uncomfortable. I simply shrugged and said "You know..." I still chuckle when I think of the TSA guy's reaction.

So uh, who packed it? How did you end up with that one? She set ya up dude

 

[NHWannabe]

One last thing to add about the original subject, delays. One of the big problems we are dealing with daily is that with such a high percentage of travellers being leisure, that also means they are not seasoned travellers. It is taking longer for the airlines to handle these travellers, and TSA to screen these travellers, because they simple don't understand the rules and procedures and are causing a scene when they don't get their way. The business travellers that used to make up a majority knew the rules, the shortcuts, and could breeze through an airport terminal in minutes without causing a fuss.

You wouldn't believe the things we've seen and heard in the last year.

every time my 88 year old mother who walks with a cane goes through TSA she always gets pulled for a pat down.

 

[PeterNSteinmetz]

every time my 88 year old mother who walks with a cane goes through TSA she always gets pulled for a pat down.

Haven’t you seen those spy movies where the cane converts to a very dangerous sword. Geez, no wonder they are worried