TSA and Honeymoons

poadeleted21

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Aug 18, 2011
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My coworker's new husband got arrested on their honeymoon this past week. He had heard he could "check his gun" so he did just that. They're young, just got married, haven't been through the social engineering experiment that is the TSA. They're from rural Texas.

He checked his bag, with a "technically loaded" as the cops put it, handgun in it in Tyler. It made it to Colorado without issue.

So, he did the same thing on the way back. Denver TSA wasn't as nice. They tossed him in jail and left him with an $11,000 fine with other charges pending and a terrified new bride.

She said he was scared and would just "pay the fine to get it over with". My advice was to take it to jury if the prosecutor wanted to take it that far.
 
Looks like texas CCW is accepted in Colorado, and the TSA allows unloaded (it's in bold on their site) guns in checked bags. So... I'm guessing whatever "technically loaded" means is what caused the problem.

Loaded magazine but none in the chamber?
 
I don't have any sympathy for people being stupid any more -

He is traveling by air with a gun - if he does not have the brains to find out what the actual rules are when he travels by air with a weapon he has no business doing so . . .

there are DHS/TSA regulations which state the weapon needs to be unloaded. . . . what does that mean for any particular weapon is the issue here.
 
I've done it a few times in the past but I was damn careful to know all the rules. I don't do it much anymore, I was never comfortable with the fact that my pistol after the flight is rotating around the luggage carousel along with everyone else's luggage.

Jail and fine is ridiculous though. It's a mistake - not like he's trying to be a criminal and highjack the airliner with a gun he can't get to...
 
I need to know what "technically loaded" is before I pass judgment.
Does that mean a loaded magazine in the same case as gun (not in gun)?
 
All you have to do is read the airlines rules on such matters, which basically is secure it, declare it, and check it... For whatever reason, you can't just toss it in your suitcase and go..
 
I need to know what "technically loaded" is before I pass judgment.
Does that mean a loaded magazine in the same case as gun (not in gun)?

Could be, they like everything separate.
 
Looks like texas CCW is accepted in Colorado, and the TSA allows unloaded (it's in bold on their site) guns in checked bags. So... I'm guessing whatever "technically loaded" means is what caused the problem.

Loaded magazine but none in the chamber?

Correct
 
I need to know what "technically loaded" is before I pass judgment.
Does that mean a loaded magazine in the same case as gun (not in gun)?

It was in the gun, without a bullet chambered.
 
It was in the gun, without a bullet chambered.

OK that was dumb.
Fine and jail time is dumber :D

For TSA to tell it was "technically loaded" means they had to open the case and inspect the gun.

Just how hard would it have been to tell the guy the "correct" way to do it.
 
OK that was dumb.
Fine and jail time is dumber :D

For TSA to tell it was "technically loaded" means they had to open the case and inspect the gun.

Just how hard would it have been to tell the guy the "correct" way to do it.

And they were a few hundred yards away from it with multiple brick walls and TSA agents between them when he was detained.

These are young rural Texas kids. She showed up for work this morning dead tired after having driven back to Savannah overnight. She also said they were "Too young to rent a car" which made it even more problematic.
 
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OK that was dumb.
For TSA to tell it was "technically loaded" means they had to open the case and inspect the gun.

Doesn't it give you a warm fuzzy to think about the average TSA employee "inspecting" a gun?

Hope there's some metal between the inspection station and passengers.
 
And they were a few hundred yards away from it with multiple brick walls and TSA agents between them when he was detained.


What I meant is TSA had to open the case to inspect the gun. They could have then "unloaded" it. Then told the guy what he did wrong. You know common sense. Oh yea we are talking about the TSA
 
What I meant is TSA had to open the case to inspect the gun. They could have then "unloaded" it. Then told the guy what he did wrong. You know common sense. Oh yea we are talking about the TSA

I attempted to carry on about 18 knives once. They were all hand made knives with caribou/moose antlers in anchorage and uber valuable, I would have missed the flight to keep them. I had 2 identical bags and checked the wrong one. TSA took the knives out and mailed them to my parents house. Didn't even disrupt the flow of traffic through the nude-o-meter. Common sense would go a long way. ( Side note to that story is the knives showed up at my parents house on my dad's birthday and he thought I had mailed them as a B-Day present…. my mom called and said "You have to tell him these knives weren't for him, he looks like Dog the Bounty Hunter with them" )

The funny thing is, the feds are keeping the charges and as she put it "We still don't know what else". After I told her, "No way in hell I pay it, I'd take it to a jury before I did". She said the a local Denver detective told them the same thing, to "take it to a jury" if the feds insist.

She got back to town about midnight last night. We'll see how it goes.

If anything is right in this country, they'll drop the charges.
 
When I have a gun in checked baggage the rules I got was unloaded gun goes into a lockable case. Then it goes in the luggage. The tell me to keep the key with me, sit to the side for 15 minuets in case they need me to unlock it. So my question is did he have it in a locked case?
 
I don't have any sympathy for people being stupid any more -

He is traveling by air with a gun - if he does not have the brains to find out what the actual rules are when he travels by air with a weapon he has no business doing so . . .

there are DHS/TSA regulations which state the weapon needs to be unloaded. . . . what does that mean for any particular weapon is the issue here.


Agreed


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There is no such thing as "technically loaded". The gun is either loaded or it is not. A loaded magazine in the gun makes it loaded. If it's not in the gun it isn't.
 
Sucks on an individual level, wouldn't wish it on anyone even halfway decent. As a country we deserve it for letting the empire get where we are.
 
Everyone makes mistakes, and I would agree that the response sounds heavy-handed, but perhaps not so much as confiscating water bottles or "oversized" tubes of toothpaste. Don't blame the TSA, blame the politicians who make the laws and write the regulations which enable the heavy-handed response. And yes, I would take it to trial if that's what it takes.

With that being said, I can't imagine how anyone would assume that having ammo in the gun would be a good idea in this case, even if it were legal. It's pretty hard to comprehend not fully researching the transport of a firearm in checked baggage.


JKG
 
There is no such thing as "technically loaded". The gun is either loaded or it is not. A loaded magazine in the gun makes it loaded. If it's not in the gun it isn't.

Maybe. Still depends on whether there's ammo in the chamber, which I can't determine unless I can see it.


JKG
 
Maybe. Still depends on whether there's ammo in the chamber, which I can't determine unless I can see it.

The definition of loaded is one of those things that gets set by law. A round in the chamber is not required for a gun to be loaded in California. For transport in checked luggage on a commercial airline flight in the US, the ammo cannot be in the same case as the gun (IIRC) or it is considered loaded. Lots of rules out there, beware.
 
The definition of loaded is one of those things that gets set by law. A round in the chamber is not required for a gun to be loaded in California. For transport in checked luggage on a commercial airline flight in the US, the ammo cannot be in the same case as the gun (IIRC) or it is considered loaded. Lots of rules out there, beware.

That may be the case, but my point is that just because the magazine isn't in the gun doesn't mean that it isn't loaded. I'm not aware of any place where ammo in the chamber isn't considered loaded.


JKG
 
Here's the TSA info:

http://www.tsa.gov/traveler-information/firearms-and-ammunition

>>
The firearm must be unloaded.
  • As defined by 49 CFR 1540.5 - "A loaded firearm means a firearm that has a live round of ammunition, or any component thereof, in the chamber or cylinder or in a magazine inserted in the firearm."
<<

>>

  • Small arms ammunition, including ammunition not exceeding .75 caliber for a rifle or pistol and shotgun shells of any gauge, may be carried in the same hard-sided case as the firearm, as long as it follows the packing guidelines described above.
<<
 
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I am no gun expert, so you all correct me if what I say makes no sense. It seems like there is some risk to transporting a loaded firearm by air in checked luggage. It seems appropriate to prohibit that conduct, and a fine for failing to do so seems reasonable to punish those that put other travelers at some, albeit small, risk. Jail time seems quite excessive, as does $11,000. More like $500 to $1000.00 for not unloading the checked firearm.
 
These are young rural Texas kids. She showed up for work this morning dead tired after having driven back to Savannah overnight. She also said they were "Too young to rent a car" which made it even more problematic.

And that makes a difference how?

There have been very specific rules on carrying guns on planes for more than 40 years now. If you're old enough to carry a gun on you, you're old enough to read the rules. Being from BFE, TX makes no exception.

I imagine in some states this violation would be enough for him to loose his carry permit. Not sure about Texas.

Expensive lesson.
 
I am no gun expert, so you all correct me if what I say makes no sense. It seems like there is some risk to transporting a loaded firearm by air in checked luggage. It seems appropriate to prohibit that conduct, and a fine for failing to do so seems reasonable to punish those that put other travelers at some, albeit small, risk. Jail time seems quite excessive, as does $11,000. More like $500 to $1000.00 for not unloading the checked firearm.

If it is a pistol without a round in the chamber, the chances of the slide moving, chambering the round, and then discharging, due to turbulence or improper handling by personnel is 0. If a round is chambered, and it is in a proper gun case, the chances of the weapon discharging due to turbulence or improper handling by personnel is 1/x where x is the largest number you can think of. With a revolver the chances are about 10 times higher.
 
And that makes a difference how?

There have been very specific rules on carrying guns on planes for more than 40 years now. If you're old enough to carry a gun on you, you're old enough to read the rules. Being from BFE, TX makes no exception.

I imagine in some states this violation would be enough for him to loose his carry permit. Not sure about Texas.

Expensive lesson.

It makes a difference because people in rural Texas don't wet their pants at the thought of a gun like the folks in SoHo do. He thought nothing more of putting that gun in his checked luggage than he did the water bottle and underwear sitting beside it.

In Texas it's not a crime, and I'm finding out that it's not a crime in Colorado either but it's a civil penalty by the Feds. He wasn't "technically arrested". They're also returning his gun. Doesn't know what the status of the fine is. My guess is there will be no fine. Just some fed leo types blowing smoke up their ass and giving them a scare.
 
I am no gun expert, so you all correct me if what I say makes no sense. It seems like there is some risk to transporting a loaded firearm by air in checked luggage. It seems appropriate to prohibit that conduct, and a fine for failing to do so seems reasonable to punish those that put other travelers at some, albeit small, risk. Jail time seems quite excessive, as does $11,000. More like $500 to $1000.00 for not unloading the checked firearm.


There is no risk at all unless a round is chambered, and even then almost zero risk if the trigger and trigger guard are completely covered. Firearms don't fire themselves.

Otherwise we'd hear every day about how another Air Marshal's pistol blew another hole in another airplane.

The fine is excessive and the charges suck, but compared to the rest of Colorado, Denver City and County and her LE have an incredible hard on for firearms (to the point where they get away with breaking the State Constitution and ban a number of things under our relatively obscure "home rule" laws for cities, which did go to Federal Court where they found a sympathetic Judge to their cause in the .10th District, and the State lost on Appeal).

While the law is completely different for airline travel, and airports, Denver cops are mostly on board with Denver's goofiness, they're completely in bed with ENORMOUS amounts of DHS money (ever since the Democratic Convention here, which bought numerous jurisdictions all sorts of interesting toys and millions and millions on dispatch infrastructure upgrades) and generally will "throw the book at" anyone with a firearm.

(Conversely, in most of the rest of the State other than perhaps Boulder, officers will just yawn when they see a firearm in a bag with a magazine inserted, and would probably be more of the "common sense" variety of story mentioned above. "You can't have that magazine inserted in that in the case. Here let me remove that for you. Nice Smith & Wesson!")

So the guy is pretty much screwed. Taking it to Court in the 10th probably isn't a great idea either.

Like some others have pointed out, I'm not a big fan of someone carrying a firearm through airport(s) who can't be bothered to read the rules available via a two second Google search -- but he caused no harm, and intended no harm.

He just picked the wrong city to not be treated as the enemy instead of a Citizen who made a mistake, by officers and their elected leaders.

This is the same police force that's spent $3M to defend an officer with multiple violence complaints against him. They are the very definition of a department that won't clean house and wants to keep the big money flowing in any way they can.

Plus, remember. Government these days thinks a $10K fine is just chump change. See their budgets for references as to why.

The young man made a mistake in the wrong place. Denver PD and TSA will not let him forget it. That's just their normal mode of operation.

As far as the worry about checking them goes, there's no worry there for me at all. In fact, since you are NOT supposed to utilize a TSA approved lock that they can open themselves, packing a firearm is a great way to actually be allowed to properly secure your luggage! LOL.

A nice case, your own lock, and a Glock stuffed in with your underwear and t-shirts! Haha. I joke but I know two people who do it. One actually uses a piece of crap .22 pistol he wouldn't trust to fire without it self-destructing just to put it in checked luggage.
 
It makes a difference because people in rural Texas don't wet their pants at the thought of a gun like the folks in SoHo do. He thought nothing more of putting that gun in his checked luggage than he did the water bottle and underwear sitting beside it.

In Texas it's not a crime, and I'm finding out that it's not a crime in Colorado either but it's a civil penalty by the Feds. He wasn't "technically arrested". They're also returning his gun. Doesn't know what the status of the fine is. My guess is there will be no fine. Just some fed leo types blowing smoke up their ass and giving them a scare.

Speaking of smoke, that's the same argument as flying from Washington State to Colorado carrying weed. It may be no big deal to you, or anyone outside of either terminal, but it's a big deal to the feds in between. Ignorance of the law is no excuse...
 
Speaking of smoke, that's the same argument as flying from Washington State to Colorado carrying weed. It may be no big deal to you, or anyone outside of either terminal, but it's a big deal to the feds in between. Ignorance of the law is no excuse...

There were over 40,000 new laws enacted at the state level alone last year. That's just one year. I assume you're up to date on all of them and the previous 250 years or so worth too?

Ignorance of the law is all we have.

I don't believe there's a jury in America who'd find him guilty of anything....law or not.
 
Speaking of smoke, that's the same argument as flying from Washington State to Colorado carrying weed. It may be no big deal to you, or anyone outside of either terminal, but it's a big deal to the feds in between. Ignorance of the law is no excuse...


Ignorant laws you mean.
 
I don't believe there's a jury in America who'd find him guilty of anything....law or not.

There may not be. That said, many folks are unfamiliar with and terrified at the thought of a gun. I believe that a jury carefully selected and composed of such folks would be likely to convict based on the letter of the law.
 
Takes a special kind of stupid to blithely take a loaded firearm aboard an airliner. The damn things aren't popsicles.
 
Takes a special kind of stupid to blithely take a loaded firearm aboard an airliner. The damn things aren't popsicles.

He didn't take it on board. He checked it. RIF.
 
There may not be. That said, many folks are unfamiliar with and terrified at the thought of a gun. I believe that a jury carefully selected and composed of such folks would be likely to convict based on the letter of the law.

“Normally, we seize the weapon … and more than that, I don’t know of any that resulted in a criminal charge,” said FBI Denver spokesman Special Agent Dave Joly. “That’s because you have to prove intent.”

http://m.redding.com/news/2014/apr/02/gun-arrests-rare-many-airports/
 
Takes a special kind of stupid to blithely take a loaded firearm aboard an airliner. The damn things aren't popsicles.


Takes a special kind of stupid to think a magazine inserted with rounds in it, is "loaded" too.
 
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