Trying not to be discouraged

Greg Weber

Greg Weber

Filing Flight Plan
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May 27, 2020
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Hellfish6
Alright, before anyone jumps on me, let me preface by saying I am very tough on myself and have high standards.

In 2015 I logged 15 hours in a Cherokee and was getting ready to solo. Things seemed to click and I was really picking up the skills.

Fast forward to today and I’m resuming my flight training in a 172, have about 10 hours and am struggling to maintain basic landing skills. In flight maneuvers are all good but my landings suck. I just can’t visualize the approach, know when to transition, and struggle to maintain directional control. Ugh! I’m discouraged and afraid that I’m going to blow my budget for flight training!

I know! I’m probably getting ahead of myself but that’s why I’m here to get advice.
 
Welcome to PoA!

Thanks for the post, and I don't think you're alone. There is no such thing as a perfect landing and people with 2K plus hours still have things they can improve about flare, etc

Now, onto the specifics of your post:
Greg Weber said:
15 hours in a Cherokee
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Greg Weber said:
Fast forward to today and I’m resuming my flight training in a 172
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Greg Weber said:
have about 10
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*I broke that into 3 quotes because I think that's your biggest items. You started getting good in one plane, took a long break, and then started flying again in a different plane. While the Cherokee and 172 are both basic trainers and overall very similar, the Cherokee is (in my not so humble opinion) a far superior flying plane to the 172, especially when it comes to landing.. the shape and placement of the wing make landing PA28 (for me at least) almost a guaranteed greaser, while the 172 seems to wobble and meander its way down the approach path. Also, keep in mind that many aspects of flying are not like riding a bike, it's a skill you really need to practice, and practice often.. 2-3 times per week at best.. 1-2 ever 2 weeks at worse. Anything less than that and you're going to start losing skill

Basically, practice will make perfect, it might take you 5-15 more hours in the 172 to nail it.. and even then you won't be perfect, and may never be

Good luck, and happy flying!

PS - your flying budget.. hopefully you planned for 60 hrs or so of flying. The regs say 40, sure, and some people do it in the 40. But I think that the more typical person is closer to the 60-80 hr mark
 
Practice makes perfect. And a good instructor will and should break it down into easy to understand and execute blocks of learning. Only adding the next block once you have the one your doing now locked in perfect.

Keep at it!
 
Good landings start with good approaches.

Practice nailing your airspeed and altitude control as you begin your descent to land.

Final approach should be super stable, barely any power changes, and yoke inputs with just wrist and fingertip power, no bicep or shoulder muscle.

If it feels like you’re on a slow smooth escalator, you got it.
 
As I have posted many times, good landings are slow landings. Speed control is paramount, and too much speed leads to problems. There are a number of YouTubes that might be helpful in your "visualizing."

Bob
 
As you get close to the runway, a low-wing will enter ground effect sooner than a high-wing.
Perhaps this makes the Cessna "feel weird" (harder to control, more likely to go down with a thump) in those last moments before touchdown?

A few "low approaches", where you fly down the length of the runway just a few feet off of it but without actually touching down, might help.

Everyone hits a "hurdle" at some point. Mine was in exactly the same place: pre-solo landings. They are the hardest thing. It took hours and hours of feeling like I wasn't making any progress, but it just takes practice and patience.
 
One word of advice, persevere, it will come. Oh, and relax, makes a big difference, seriously, focus on staying relaxed, don't tense up.
 
I would just note that, even if you were flying the same airplane, I wouldn't plan on 15 hours 5 years ago being worth much of anything. Those skills have long since atrophied, and essentially you're starting from scratch as far as muscle memory and sight picture.
 
Thanks, all. I definitely don’t think my skills from 5 years ago are by any means relative to today. My point was simply that 5 years ago I seemed to be in a better shape then I am in today after similar flight time - which to me seems discouraging.

I’ve committed to flying at least three days a week and have planned for 60-75 hours total. I hate to be someone who winds up taking 100 hours and blowing a budget! All the advice is very helpful and I’ll consider it for my next flight.
 
I'm not here to encourage or discourage you, but I'll share my personal experience since I'm/was in a very similar position.
A little over 2 years ago I did extensive dual training until I soloed. Then after a few solo hours life got in the way and stopped my training. About 6 weeks ago I restarted training with a different instructor and aircraft. Like you, my budget was calculated on requirements for the practical as well another 5 hours to refresh and in my calculations 5 hours was on the safe side. Needless to say that after a few hours of landings which btw really sucked.(and counting every hour towards my budget) with my CFI having to do most of the inputs, I started to realize that if I want to get to my certificate, I should stop counting the hours, and just focus on practice, since as I was told and as I read online there is a moment where everything starts to come together and your landings dramatically improve. I'm now way past 10 hours probably more around 15 (afraid to count) and soloed today. So far I'm ok with calm day landings but need more dual on crosswind, and hope to continue improving. My advice, focus on calm days at first, continue practicing, although it feels to you that there is no improvement and you leave the school frustrated, beating up yourself. Know that there is a moment everything will suddenly click, and you'll realize that all those botched landings contributed to your perfect ones
 
I'll just add, look for calm days. Nail your airspeed on final and shift your eyes down the runway when starting the flare.
 
Greg Weber said:
Thanks, all. I definitely don’t think my skills from 5 years ago are by any means relative to today. My point was simply that 5 years ago I seemed to be in a better shape then I am in today after similar flight time - which to me seems discouraging.
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10 hours vs. 15 hours aren't "similar" flight time numbers. A lot of learning happens between hours 10 and 15. It's analogous to the age difference between a 10-year old and a 15-year old. A 10-year old is a kid in elementary school, a 15 year old is a high school student getting ready to drive.
 
PPL747 said:
I'm not here to encourage or discourage you, but I'll share my personal experience since I'm/was in a very similar position.
A little over 2 years ago I did extensive dual training until I soloed. Then after a few solo hours life got in the way and stopped my training. About 6 weeks ago I restarted training with a different instructor and aircraft. Like you, my budget was calculated on requirements for the practical as well another 5 hours to refresh and in my calculations 5 hours was on the safe side. Needless to say that after a few hours of landings which btw really sucked.(and counting every hour towards my budget) with my CFI having to do most of the inputs, I started to realize that if I want to get to my certificate, I should stop counting the hours, and just focus on practice, since as I was told and as I read online there is a moment where everything starts to come together and your landings dramatically improve. I'm now way past 10 hours probably more around 15 (afraid to count) and soloed today. So far I'm ok with calm day landings but need more dual on crosswind, and hope to continue improving. My advice, focus on calm days at first, continue practicing, although it feels to you that there is no improvement and you leave the school frustrated, beating up yourself. Know that there is a moment everything will suddenly click, and you'll realize that all those botched landings contributed to your perfect ones
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Thanks for sharing. To be fair, my instructor is pushing me in some more windy conditions that are degrading my confidence a bit. He says, “if you don’t challenge yourself in these conditions you’ll never improve.” But hell, I’d like to get a few nice and easy landings down and build from there before I jump into crosswind gusts!
 
Greg Weber said:
Thanks for sharing. To be fair, my instructor is pushing me in some more windy conditions that are degrading my confidence a bit. He says, “if you don’t challenge yourself in these conditions you’ll never improve.” But hell, I’d like to get a few nice and easy landings down and build from there before I jump into crosswind gusts!
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Trust your instructor, I prefer wind versus no wind, which causes your ground speed to be faster when touching down. Cross wind is all about the approach, get aligned then stay aligned. For me, I transferred from crabbing to slipping about 100 feet above the runway until I was comfortable. Even now I switch to a slip about 25 feet above versus before touch down. I just like it better that way.
 
kath said:
As you get close to the runway, a low-wing will enter ground effect sooner than a high-wing.
Perhaps this makes the Cessna "feel weird" (harder to control, more likely to go down with a thump) in those last moments before touchdown?

A few "low approaches", where you fly down the length of the runway just a few feet off of it but without actually touching down, might help.

Everyone hits a "hurdle" at some point. Mine was in exactly the same place: pre-solo landings. They are the hardest thing. It took hours and hours of feeling like I wasn't making any progress, but it just takes practice and patience.
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Having flown both, I agree with her assessment.
The Cessna slotted flaps seem more effective, too. By myself in a Cessna, I can sometimes land really slow.
 
I dig holes in the runway with the nose gear at Flagler when I was training in a 172. For me the landing configuration always felt like I was going to slap the tail first. Moved up here and finished my training in a Cherokee-piece of cake today land. fast forward 20 years now flying a 182 and it took the right CFI to really teach me how to land-the trick being trying not let the plane land.
 
Stop worrying about how many hours it is taking you to solo. Focus on getting better at landings and being a safe pilot. Too many students get fixated on the hours til solo, I find it usually distracts them.
 
Greg Weber said:
I hate to be someone who winds up taking 100 hours and blowing a budget!
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Don't stress on how long it takes to solo, everybody is different. And don't stress on how many hours it takes for you to complete training. Even if it takes 100 hours, you're still flying and that money is going to flying even after your training anyway. Sounds like you might be going to hard on yourself. Slow down, relax, and have fun and I promise it will come in time.
 
Hang in there, chief, we all learn at different rates, you’ll get there!
 
Why don’t you try taking a little break from training? Have you taken a fun flight? Go up with your instructor and get some breakfast at a local airport. You don’t have to train all the time and a fun flight may help clear your mind. You can also fly with another CFI to get a second opinion on what you’re doing wrong. You got this!
 
TommyG said:
Stop worrying about how many hours it is taking you to solo. Focus on getting better at landings and being a safe pilot. Too many students get fixated on the hours til solo, I find it usually distracts them.
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This!!!!

I was at 20+ hours and didn’t feel close to solo, I realized mine was an instructor student match up issue- which doesn’t seem what your describing and far too early to worry about unless you really feel the teaching/learning style aren’t matching.

But my point is this... I thought at 20hrs n not close to solo I thought maybe I’m not cut out for this- 3 hrs later I siloed. I spent lesson after lesson wanting to round out at 50 ft- then it cane together.

12 years later- I fly a taildragger, have taken her into the mountains of northern idaho and get invited to fly others planes when they can’t take em up... Am I an amazing awesome expert pilot? No- but I’m good, and my point is this- I didn’t think I was cut out for it at after twice as long as you have been training and today I couldn’t be happier I stuck to it and have become a good pilot

You got this!
 
One of the earlier replies mentioned the Cherokee being a far superior flying machine to the 172. Well... in my ever-so-humble opinion, a Cherokee is easier to fly, but really not better for training. As I discovered when transitioning from Cherokees to a 172, the Cherokee will let you get away with a lot that the 172 will gently point out you're doing all wrong.

You'll get it. Forget the hours you flew before -- they're nice memories, but they won't do you much good now. You're starting over, essentially from scratch. If the cost of training gets painful, just imagine how bad it will be once you're done and want to actually go somewhere.

And my standard tip for student pilot landings: Once you're down to that last foot or two of air between you and the runway with power off and full flaps, just relax and and try NOT to land. Try to keep the airplane from touching the pavement. You'll fail, but (with luck) fail gracefully, and it may even fool your instructor into thinking you did it on purpose.
 
You've mentioned budget a few times now. Having the cost of your training always at the front of your mind will make each unsuccessful solo practice hour very stressful. Which in turn will not let you give 100%. Maybe you can reframe the budget in ways that let's you not worry about it. You want to be seeing that landing picture as you near final and not dollar Bill's being thrown away everytime you dont get the landing.

I predict it will take you 8 more hours. Would that upset your budget so much that you would just give up. I bet not...you'll adapt and figure it out :)
 
DaleB said:
a Cherokee is easier to fly, but really not better for training. As I discovered when transitioning from Cherokees to a 172, the Cherokee will let you get away with a lot that the 172 will gently point out you're doing all wrong.
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I've heard that some instructors think the Cherokee is too easy to land and won't teach you much. I do find low wing airplanes to be the right choice for me (except when I need shade at a fly-in). Here's how NOT to land a Warrior:

 
Daleandee said:
I've heard that some instructors think the Cherokee is too easy to land and won't teach you much. I do find low wing airplanes to be the right choice for me (except when I need shade at a fly-in).
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I personally prefer low wings, and fly one myself. The Cherokee seemed to me to allow some poor practices without any real penalty. For example, stalling with the ball a little off... no problem, it just mushes into that easy to manage Cherokee marshmallow bag of a stall. Try that in a 172 and you'll get a nice little reminder of why you want to stay coordinated.

Again, my opinion. I like Cherokees, I just think they may be a little *too* easy to make really good trainers.

Of course everyone knows that low wing airplanes, and the pilots who fly them, are much cooler and more attractive to the opposite sex.
 
simtech said:
Don't stress on how long it takes to solo, everybody is different.
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This. Though I do remember that first solo in the pattern at I19 and the feeling of looking over on downwind and realize oh $!&# I have to do this by myself, I do NOT remember how many hours that was. I happen to remember that after shutting down after passing my exam I was at exactly 50 hours only because it was right on the dot.

Hours are meaningless. Are you going to stick with this forever or at least the foreseeable future? At 1000 hours will it matter if you finished at 40 or 100 and soloed at 12 or 30? Even if you don't know if you'll fly that many hours in your life, you'll get the ticket eventually and that's freaking awesome.

Keep practicing, and try to do one thing better each time. Like a golf swing, if you try to fix your feet position and grip and the start of your backswing and your wrists and your forearm and your speed and your downswing and your hips and your vision and your follow through all at the same time you're probably not going to put it in the middle of the fairway after a round of golf.

Try to improve one thing at a time. Are your airspeeds nailed at every point or turn in the pattern? Great lesson! Next, are you able to stay lined up with centerline on airspeed on final? Great lesson! Are you able to combine all of that so far? Great. How about that aim point? Does it move up or down in your windscreen? Maybe it'll take a few lessons to get that added to the mix. Are you able to track the centerline as you bleed off speed over the runway? That could take a couple lessons alone. Is your grip too strong during final and flare and roundout? Are you not "waiting" for the plane to settle but rather pulling back too much too soon?

The point is, it's a complicated maneuver and you spend all of a handful of seconds every lesson actually landing. The golf swing only takes a couple seconds as well. It will take a lot of time to get all the pieces in place and then to smooth out the puzzle.

And when you grease that first landing or nail that first fairway you'll think, "Oh wow, I can do this."
 
Greg Weber said:
Fast forward to today and I’m resuming my flight training in a 172, have about 10 hours and am struggling to maintain basic landing skills. In flight maneuvers are all good but my landings suck. I just can’t visualize the approach, know when to transition, and struggle to maintain directional control. Ugh! I’m discouraged and afraid that I’m going to blow my budget for flight training.
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Greg,

Good on you for getting back in the saddle. As others mentioned there is a difference in the P vs C but nothing you can't handle. Trust me, we all have our days with landings.

Nail your speeds, fly those numbers and things will get better. When I start feeling like my landings are getting flat I'll add a touch of trim to help with the flair. Keep looking down the runway, not right in front of the plane. My instructor made me fly down the runway, holding it off, to lock in the sight picture, it helped.

Good luck!!
 
One of the worst landings I ever had during my private cert training was the one right before my CFI decided to jump out and let me take it around solo for the first time. It was just downright ugly and there was no way I was anywhere near ready to try landing on my own yet I thought. He told me to pull off the runway for a minute and I figured he was going to lay some 'splainin on me that would help insure I didn't break the plane like I almost did on that last clunker of a landing.

Nope. He just signed my logbook and got out and told me to take it around myself. I thought he was crazy. Then he told me that he hadn't touched a control all day and all those landings we'd been practicing for the last hour were all me. He said some of the weren't pretty, but all of them were safe.

Safe is the goal for 1st solo. Pretty comes later. For some, it comes much later. :oops:
 
If you do everything by the numbers the landings will get much easier. Pattern altitude, base turn, speed on final, correct runway picture, flap setting, power setting etc. will produce consistent results and reduce the need for big last minute corrections that mess up your approach and result in a difficult landing. If things don't look right you can go around and try again until everything looks right. After a while you'll recognize when you're too high, too fast, not at the right flare height, off the centerline. It's really a matter of being consistent regardless of what type plane you are flying. Stick with it and all the pieces will fall in place.
 
This was sort of touched on, but having the instructor fly the pattern once from takeoff to landing may help. No talking.... just observing power settings, airspeed, when they trim, when then pitch up down, the distance from the runway on downwind, where power gets pulled out abeam... just observing. Observe the speeds on short final and when they flare and, if you can see it, where they are focusing once over the threshold.

That's another thing that I have to constantly remind myself of - to look down the runway and not two feet in front of the plane when landing. If I go a couple of weeks without flying, my first landing almost always sucks. Unless I remind myself to look down the damn runway. Oh and to not come in so hot. I had a CFI who was determined that I land at 65 knots over the numbers then bleed off the speed.... way too fast especially if I'm solo. 60 on short final is where I like it in the 172 and then down to 55 over the threshold constantly slowing to hear the stall warner just as the wheels touch.

Oh, and relax about it. If you are tense and have a death grip on the yoke, that doesn't help. A light touch helps.
 
DaleB said:
Well... in my ever-so-humble opinion, a Cherokee is easier to fly, but really not better for training. As I discovered when transitioning from Cherokees to a 172, the Cherokee will let you get away with a lot that the 172 will gently point out you're doing all wrong.
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Funny.. maybe it really just comes down to an individual thing then. I have the exact same opposite feeling with 172 vs PA28, that, it's (172) too forgiving

I find the PA28 stalls a little more briskly than a 172 and the ground effect thing of the PA28, while making landings "easier" will train someone better float discipline than a 172/182

This is why we should all be flying Aerostars. It really is the King Solomon solution to high wing / low wing, and the least forgiving to sloppy flying.
 
I just did a flight review after decades out of the cockpit. I flew plenty of 172's and Cherokees over the years since I was 17, but my first landing in a 172 on that first flight review flight 3 weeks ago was astonishing to me as to how bad it was. Over the next couple of days I must have shot 30 of the ugliest landings in my 50 years as a pilot. I was kind of shocked when the CFI finally said after 2.5 flight hours into the flight review, "OK, you're good to go...you're rusty, but safe" and signed me off. Since then I've shot about 30 more landings and I'm back to the skill level that I remember, but wow! What a humbling experience.

Now, if I could just figure out how to work modern avionics and navigation.....what happened to all the VORs and NDB's?
 
DaleB said:
They're right there, next to the pay phones and wall mounted pencil sharpeners. It's the shelf right above the VCRs.
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Yup. I gotta say, Foreflight is a hoot for sure. First thing I bought before my first cross country was a suction cup mount for my iPad Pro. Now...as a backup, I'd like to know how to program the Bendix King GPS in the planes that I rent, but when I asked the CFI about it, he wasn't sure either.
 
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