New pilot here, any tips of maintain level flight during cruise? I'm confused because I have had multiple instructors tell me different techniques . One instructor told me to level at desired altitude reduce power and THEN trim until I no longer feel any pressure on the yoke. But another instructor told me to level at desired altitude, trim until I no longer feel pressure on the yoke THEN reduce power. I feel like both techniques don't really help me with maintaining altitude during cruise. This has also been a problem for me when trying to maintain proper pitch and altitude during landing. Any tips on what I'm doing wrong or can do differently?
Trouble maintaining level flight
The second instructor is wrong. If you trim to hands-off before reducing power, you’ll have to re-trim in order to maintain level flight.
Reduce power to whatever your cruise setting is, then trim for hands-off flight.
Reduce power to whatever your cruise setting is, then trim for hands-off flight.
Timbeck2
Final Approach
<--- in the "reduce power then trim" camp.
You have to realize that you're flying through air which isn't always blowing the same way all the time. You are going to have to fiddle with power and trim from time to time. One and done doesn't work.
You have to realize that you're flying through air which isn't always blowing the same way all the time. You are going to have to fiddle with power and trim from time to time. One and done doesn't work.
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Aztec Flyer
The technique will vary with the airplane.
If trimmed for climb, I'll usually "rough trim" for level flight so I don't have to keep pushing on the yoke, let the airplane accelerate to cruise, set throttle (prop) mixture, fine tune the trim, fine tune the mixture for LOP.
If trimmed for climb, I'll usually "rough trim" for level flight so I don't have to keep pushing on the yoke, let the airplane accelerate to cruise, set throttle (prop) mixture, fine tune the trim, fine tune the mixture for LOP.
Thank you. Yes I was initially taught to reduce power first. I think a big issue with my training was that I've had multiple instructors and it's been hard to figure out who to listen to.
Gotcha, thanks!
Lots of hot air floating around.
The big thing to remember, is that with every power application or reduction comes a trim change.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
Find a good instructor and stick with him/ her, try to fly at least once a week, preferably two more times a week. It will go faster and these things become automatic quicker.
Stewartb
Final Approach
Students usually fly with no cargo. Adding weight aft stabilizes the airplanes I’m familiar with. Forward CGs are much harder to trim to level.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
After you’ve solved the ‘leveling off’ thing, there is maintaining it in cruise. Weight/CG changes from fuel burn will affect it. You may have to make slight changes to ‘hold’ altitude. Pressure gradients can affect it to. You will be trying to maintain ‘indicated’ altitude from the altimeter. Actual altitude will be changing as you fly from high pressure to low or vice versa. Slight changes, but changes nonetheless.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yup. I have put ‘ballast’ in the back just to deal with this.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
Turn on the autopilot
Shepherd
Final Approach
Bless you for mentioning this.
It's amazing how few people can actually cope with this concept.
Deelee
Pattern Altitude
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That's what I was taught. Simple to remember. Pitch for level flight, power back (if leveling off) then trim off pressure. Just takes practice. I was all over the place at first trying to get it right. ended up seesawing all over the place - too much pitch down, too much pitch up, too much power reduction so add power and then trim and pitch down again... ugh. It will just click, trust me and then it will just feel right. But pitch, power, trim really helped me. Still hear my instructors saying it.... That and high? low? fast? slow? lol. Still hear that on approach.
Well, true, but better might be "Pitch, allow speed to build, power, trim."
For a given pitch attitude, there is one airspeed that results in level flight. When leveling off from a Vy or Vx climb, push the nose down (do a rough trim if there's a lot of force), then allow the airspeed to build to close to the desired figure before reducing power. Then trim.
James331
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None of these CFIs talked about where to look? Aside from the panel?
Just fly to the horizon, 90% eyes outside, 10% eyes on the panel, take a occasional look down at our altimeter to see if you need to change your aim point on the horizon a little up or down.
All these trim and power nuances are trivial. Seems like they are teaching paint by numbers. Just fly to the horizon, reduce power after you level out and all trim is for is to take the pressure off the controls, and that’s for ANY stage of flight.
kgruber
Final Approach
Maintain altitude with pitch.
Do whatever with everything else.
Do whatever with everything else.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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Light and Sporty Guy
The air goes up. The airplane goes up. The air goes down. The airplane goes down. Some days are worse than others. Today was a trim and relax day for me. Other days it looks like I am flying a yo-yo.
Tantalum
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Yes. When you level off get to your cruise speed and power setting then trim away pressure.
Tommar98
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I think one of the issues is not allowing the plane to accelerate once you level off. If you cut power too quickly and start trimming you’ll end up chasing it because the plane will slowly accelerate. I was taught to level off and let plane accelerate to expected cruise speed and then reduce power and trim.
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Tantalum
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YES!
Also shows a lack of clear instruction on the part of the CFI regarding trimming for a given airspeed etc
Slight tangent here, sorry, but I talk to a lot of would be and new pilots and it seems, at least among younger CFI, that rote memorization is what is taught as opposed to a good aerodynamic understanding.. this is a great example of a CFI teaching a new student a rote thing as opposed to understanding principles and concepts of trim and aerodynamics
AKBill
En-Route
My ballast is 50 lbs of survival gear, not a lot but seems t help a bit...
Zeldman
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dmspilot
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DISPLAY NAME
Or maybe they didn't care when it was taught to them.
James331
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I’ve seen a trend in over emphasis of some things which are good, but not super critical.
Like trim, most GA planes you can set the trim in the middle and fly the entire day without touching it, shy of being extremely malnourished or sickly the extra force on the yoke ain’t a big deal. Is it good to trim, yes, but it’s waaaay over talked about in flight training as if was almost more important than sight picture. Same with exact power settings, XX RPM downwind, XX crosswind, etc.
This is akin to the fear of god many CFIs put into students about radio work, this ends up making far more problems and stt.tt..stuttering on the radio than just a relaxed student using it for two way conversation and picking up the lingo as their experience builds.
If you just let the foundation be simple and visual you make a waaaay better pilot and eliminate most of these issues.
Want my entire lesson on trim (flight aspect not system),
Q what’s trim do?
A it takes the pressure off the controls, so less force is needed by you to hold the stick where you want it.
I say fly level, I have the student spin the wheel one way, now I have them put the wheel back to where it feels good, other way and do the same.
DONE.
Like trim, most GA planes you can set the trim in the middle and fly the entire day without touching it, shy of being extremely malnourished or sickly the extra force on the yoke ain’t a big deal. Is it good to trim, yes, but it’s waaaay over talked about in flight training as if was almost more important than sight picture. Same with exact power settings, XX RPM downwind, XX crosswind, etc.
This is akin to the fear of god many CFIs put into students about radio work, this ends up making far more problems and stt.tt..stuttering on the radio than just a relaxed student using it for two way conversation and picking up the lingo as their experience builds.
If you just let the foundation be simple and visual you make a waaaay better pilot and eliminate most of these issues.
Want my entire lesson on trim (flight aspect not system),
Q what’s trim do?
A it takes the pressure off the controls, so less force is needed by you to hold the stick where you want it.
I say fly level, I have the student spin the wheel one way, now I have them put the wheel back to where it feels good, other way and do the same.
DONE.
How I do it- 50-100' from target altitude rough trim down, about 3 turns of the trim wheel for me. Then hold level, get power set if not already and keep it level with the yoke, fine tuning the trim until holding at the correct altitude and at about your expected cruise speed. Lean the engine. Continue making small adjustments as needed throughout the flight.
Some days you can dial the trim in right and it holds altitude like you had an autopilot with altitude hold on. Other days the winds and thermals will have you working throughout the flight to keep on altitude. Don't overthink this stuff, just understand the relationship between pitch/power/trim and airspeed/vertical speed. Understand some days things are smoother than others, and just make adjustments as they are needed.
Some days you can dial the trim in right and it holds altitude like you had an autopilot with altitude hold on. Other days the winds and thermals will have you working throughout the flight to keep on altitude. Don't overthink this stuff, just understand the relationship between pitch/power/trim and airspeed/vertical speed. Understand some days things are smoother than others, and just make adjustments as they are needed.
unsafervguy
En-Route
Stewartb
Final Approach
Only when way aft of the limit. Most planes with a solo pilot or worse, two front seaters and no cargo are forward CG and will be difficult to keep on trim.
James331
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Dan Thomas
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That there. I had too many students start pulling the power back as they leveled off, then they'd trim. The speed would continue to build and so the nose would go up and the airplane would climb some more. They'd fool with the trim, then the RPM would be higher than the target as the speed increased.
Push the nose down to level off, let the speed build to target, reduce the power to maintain that speed, THEN trim for no pressure. Anthing else is just chasing the airplane all over the place.
unsafervguy
En-Route
completely wrong.
i suggest you go back to school on aerodynamics. i would suggest chapter 4 of aerodynamics for naval aviators. here is a snip from that chapter.
CONTROL FORCE STABILITY. The static longitudinal stability of an airplane is defined by the tendency to return to equilibrium upon displacement. In otherwords, the stable air- plane will resist displacement from the trim or equilibrium.
When the c,g. position of the airplane is fixed, each elevator position corresponds to a particular trim lift coefficient. AS the c.g. is moved aft the slope of this line decreases and the decrease in stability is evident by a given control displacement causing a greater change in trim lift coefficient.
Thus, decreasing stick force stability is evident in that smaller stick forces are necessary to displace the airplane from the trim speed. When the stick force gradient (or slope) becomes zero, the c.g. is at the stick-free neutral point and neutral stability exists.
after the cg goes beyond the neutral stability point, divergent oscillations occur, and that is bad juju.
Stewartb
Final Approach
Yawn. I suggest you fly an airplane. Every Cessna driver knows the advantages of CG favoring aft. Cub guys, too. In test flying my exp I had a handful with an unstable airplane until I added weight in the back, and the airplane was within the design envelope. I don't know about you but in my life experience makes a bigger impact than books.PS- a screenshot of iBooks on my iDevices.
AKBill
En-Route
Fly near mountains with a 20 knot wind and trim for level flight...
Stewartb
Final Approach
Go back to the OP. Obviously he should adjust power before trim. But when it won’t stay trimmed? Add some weight aft. EVERY one of you knows that’s correct. It’s the difference that experience makes and that’s what he was asking for. Here’s a common W&B with my Cessna on wheel skis. How do you guys think it trims? Once and done? Get real.
unsafervguy
En-Route
i see aerodynamics for naval aviators is listed as new, maybe you should read it, i have many times. as fpr flying an airplane, i would be willing to bet i have more hours that you will ever see, in a larger flight envelope that you will ever encounter. I also have a degree in engineering. your physics understanding of your "experience" is lacking. what is your definition of that "unstable" aircraft?
I don't think you understand what a stable and unstable aircraft is and the connection to controllability. a stable aircraft will go back to trimmed flight when a displacement force is imparted on it. a neutral stable aircraft will stay at the displaced condition, a unstable aircraft will increase in displacement from stable flight.
moving the cg aft will decrease the stability of the aircraft. that is simple physics. however, it will also increase the controllablility. it will take less stick force to impart a movement from stable flight. moving the cg aft will also increase performance of the aircraft as the tail will have to impart less downforce, and thus less drag. if you truly had an unstable aircraft, moving the cg aft will only make it more unstable. however, it will make it lighter on the controls, and as to the OP, will only make it harder to control altitude because of the lighter controls.
I don't think you understand what a stable and unstable aircraft is and the connection to controllability. a stable aircraft will go back to trimmed flight when a displacement force is imparted on it. a neutral stable aircraft will stay at the displaced condition, a unstable aircraft will increase in displacement from stable flight.
moving the cg aft will decrease the stability of the aircraft. that is simple physics. however, it will also increase the controllablility. it will take less stick force to impart a movement from stable flight. moving the cg aft will also increase performance of the aircraft as the tail will have to impart less downforce, and thus less drag. if you truly had an unstable aircraft, moving the cg aft will only make it more unstable. however, it will make it lighter on the controls, and as to the OP, will only make it harder to control altitude because of the lighter controls.
Stewartb
Final Approach
Answer the OP, smart guy. I’m a lost cause.