Trouble explaining landings

[Revtach]

I am working on my CFI. Now that I am having to explain while I fly I am having trouble finding the words that suite the actions. I am ironing out my deficiencies one at a time but I am stunningly unable to explain one aspect of landings. This applies to a 1980 C172P.

For a normal landing, the procedure I use, starting from the downwind is:

1. Abeam touchdown point (lets use the 1000' markers), power to 1600 (it will settle at 1500) and flaps 10 once under 110 knots.
2. Maintain altitude with pitch until airspeed gets to 85 knots and then lower the pitch to maintain 85 knots and begin descending.
3. After about 200 feet of descent, look back and verify being approximately 45 degrees off your touchdown point and begin turn to base.
4. Roll into a 30 degree banked turn and slightly lower the nose to maintain 85 knots.
5. Roll out on base (with a wind correction if necessary) and lower the flaps to 20 and pitch up for 75 knots.
6. Ensure the extended final and opposite base leg are clear.
7. When coming up to the final approach course, begin turning at a 30 degree bank while maintaining 75 knots.
8. Roll out on final approximately 400-500 ft AGL, lower the flaps to 30 and pitch for 65 knots.
9. Hold this configuration and maintain 65 knots with pitch and manage descent angle with power until ready to round out. Apply side slip as necessary. Adjust descent angle so that your aiming point is about 200 feet before your touchdown point.
10. Begin rounding out about 100 feet before your aiming point (so 300 feet before your touchdown point) by reducing the power to idle and start pitching up only enough to arrest your descent.
11. Hold the airplane off the runway as long as possible so that you touch down just above stall speed.

The problem I am having is between steps 9 and 10. I know that we don't normally hold approach speed all the way until round out because that will result in too long of a float down the runway. When do you all normally start reducing speed from final approach to the roundout and how would you explain that procedure? What I am concerned about is an examiner claiming that a student slowing down too early can be considered as not maintaining approach speed during final. At what point does the final approach end so that the final approach speed is no longer applicable?

If you notice any other mistakes or room for improvement in the above process I would certainly take the feedback. Thanks.

 

[FastEddieB]

I was taught to begin the roundout approximately one wingspan above the ground. So 30’ to 50’ will get you in the ballpark for most smaller GA aircraft. You seem to be timing it by distance to the touchdown point rather than height above the runway.

The Airplane Flying Handbook puts it a bit lower:

“Round Out (Flare)
The round out is a slow, smooth transition from a normal
approach attitude to a landing attitude, gradually rounding
out the flightpath to one that is parallel with, and within a
very few inches above, the runway. When the airplane, in a
normal descent, approaches within what appears to be 10 to
20 feet above the ground, the round out or flare is started.
This is a continuous process until the airplane touches down
on the ground.”

It goes on to explain the process pretty well.

 

[dbahn]

How did you arrive at a 65 knot approach speed?

 

[MauleSkinner]

I was taught* power to idle once the runway is made, which will, of course, require lowering the nose to maintain speed prior to roundout.

the AFH says the roundout starts at 10-20 feet, with power gradually reduced at that point.

*a phrase generally worthy of a 709 ride, IMO.

 

[Revtach]

How did you arrive at a 65 knot approach speed?

The POH...60-70 knots with flaps extended. So we keep it right in the middle at 65. The question to me is at what point in the approach to begin bleeding off speed. Taking 65 knots into the round out makes you float too far. So about 100 feet prior to roundout start pitching up?

 

[MauleSkinner]

If you notice any other….room for improvement in the above process I would certainly take the feedback. Thanks.

I would consider eliminating the height references beyond the initial descent from pattern altitude, but rather teach your students to gauge proper height by angle down to the runway.

 

[MauleSkinner]

The POH...60-70 knots with flaps extended. So we keep it right in the middle at 65. The question to me is at what point in the approach to begin bleeding off speed. Taking 65 knots into the round out makes you float too far. So about 100 feet prior to roundout start pitching up?

Are you doing this at max gross weight? If not, POH speeds are probably too fast.

 

[Revtach]

I was taught to begin the roundout approximately one wingspan above the ground. So 30’ to 50’ will get you in the ballpark for most smaller GA aircraft. You seem to be timing it by distance to the touchdown point rather than height above the runway.

Yes, it is easier for me to judge horizontal distance using runway markings than vertical distance. It works out the same doing it either way.

 

[Revtach]

Are you doing this at max gross weight? If not, POH speeds are probably too fast.

No, but the POH doesn't specify any other speeds. I am going to be teaching students who are going to be taking practical tests and I want to follow the POH.

 

[FastEddieB]

Yes, it is easier for me to judge horizontal distance using runway markings than vertical distance. It works out the same doing it either way.

If you’re going for your CFI, it’s not a matter of what’s easier for you, but how the FAA would like to see your students taught. I think from Cubs to 747’s, height is generally how you judge when things happen on approach.

 

[MauleSkinner]

No, but the POH doesn't specify any other speeds. I am going to be teaching students who are going to be taking practical tests and I want to follow the POH.

You also need to teach them to understand the POH. They need to understand that a single approach speed given in the POH is for maximum weight, and any decrease in weight should be accompanied by an appropriate decrease in approach speed. The range given is probably for maximum to an assumed minimum weight.

 

[Revtach]

If you’re going for your CFI, it’s not a matter of what’s easier for you, but how the FAA would like to see your students taught. I think from Cubs to 747’s, height is generally how you judge when things happen on approach.

Ok. I will talk to my CFI about it.

Either way, can I ask if you hold your final approach speed until you're ready to round out? If you start slowing down prior, how soon prior? Thank you.

 

[dmspilot]

If you notice any other mistakes or room for improvement in the above process I would certainly take the feedback. Thanks.

Failure to mention trim.

 

[Revtach]

Failure to mention trim.

Thank you. I will add it.

 

[Revtach]

You also need to teach them to understand the POH. They need to understand that a single approach speed given in the POH is for maximum weight, and any decrease in weight should be accompanied by an appropriate decrease in approach speed.

Can I ask how to interpret this in the absence of other listed speeds? If the ACS says to use the manufacturer's recommended approach speeds, how would I justify to an examiner flying at 55 knots for example?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Can I ask how to interpret this in the absence of other listed speeds? If the ACS says to use the manufacturer's recommended approach speeds, how would I justify to an examiner flying at 55 knots for example?

You would justify it as being the appropriate speed for the weight, and providing your calculation logic.

the landing distance chart in the 172P POH that I can find online only gives airspeed and landing distances for 2400 pounds. Unless you make all landings at 2400 pounds, you have to justify your landing weight as well as the other parameters.

 

[Revtach]

You would justify it as being the appropriate speed for the weight, and providing your calculation logic.

the landing distance chart in the 172P POH that I can find online only gives airspeed and landing distances for 2400 pounds. Unless you make all landings at 2400 pounds, you have to justify your landing weight as well as the other parameters.

I have not yet had to calculate approach speed based on weight. If it is proscribed in the POH I can of course follow it but I have not had to do it manually. I will look into it. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

 

[dbahn]

You would justify it as being the appropriate speed for the weight, and providing your calculation logic.

the landing distance chart in the 172P POH that I can find online only gives airspeed and landing distances for 2400 pounds. Unless you make all landings at 2400 pounds, you have to justify your landing weight as well as the other parameters.

You can approach it from the other direction, too. During training, load it up to gross weight with fuel and sandbags as needed then fly your recommended approach speeds. If nothing else you'll get a good feel of the difference in performance with loading.

I've done this in the C206. (You can even buy sandbags from Home Depot and return them when you're done. I have a photo, but it won't upload right now.)

 

[MauleSkinner]

I would also note from that same POH the conditions under which landing performance is determined:

CONDITIONS:
Flaps 30°
Power Off
Maximum Braking
Paved, Level, Dry Runway
Zero Wind

If I’m understanding your original question correctly, power off at 50 feet per the chart would be an acceptable answer, and it would coincide very closely with what I was taught.

So maybe I can weasel my way out of that 709 ride.

 

[Revtach]

I would also note from that same POH the conditions under which landing performance is determined:

CONDITIONS:
Flaps 30°
Power Off
Maximum Braking
Paved, Level, Dry Runway
Zero Wind

If I’m understanding your original question correctly, power off at 50 feet per the chart would be an acceptable answer, and it would coincide very closely with what I was taught.

So maybe I can weasel my way out of that 709 ride.

My question is if pilots are holding final approach speed until round out. I find that going 65 knots into the round out is too much and the plane floats too far, so I have developed the habit of slowing down as I’m approaching the round out phase. I am having trouble putting into words my methodology as it is very much instinctual.

 

[Clip4]

Try this.

On downwind the power setting should be 2200-2300 rpm, 90-100 KIAS

1. Abeam touchdown point (let’s use the 1000' markers), power to 1600 (it will settle at 1500). Hold a level pitch attitude for speed change, double check airspeed in white and extend 10° flaps.
2. Trim for 85 knots and begin descending.
3. Determine the aircraft is in position for the turn to base approximately 45 degrees off your touchdown point and begin turn to base.
4. Roll into a 30 degree banked turn and slightly add a bit of forward elevator to maintain 85 knots.
5. Roll out on base (with a wind correction if necessary) and lower the flaps to 20 and trim for 75 knots.
Make an altitude decision here and slightly adjust power to have the plane at the correct altitude to turn final 500 agl.
6. Ensure the extended final and opposite base leg are clear.
7. When coming up to the final approach course, begin turning at a 30 degree bank while maintaining 75 knots with a very small amount of forward elevator pressure.
8. Maneuver the airplane to align with the center of the runway and keep it there.
9. Reduce the power as needed to descend and then lower the flaps to 30 and trim for 65 knots.
10. Hold this configuration and maintain 65 knots with pitch and maintain the aim point with power until ready to round out. Apply side slip as necessary.
10. Begin rounding 15 feet above the runway surface by leveling the aircraft to fly down the runway. Smoothly reduce the peer while increasing the pitch to the landing attitude. Maintain the landing attitude with slowly increasing elevator input as the plane slows to touch down. Hold the airplane off the runway as long as possible, don’t let the airplane land, so that you touch down just above stall speed.

 

[dmspilot]

My question is if pilots are holding final approach speed until round out.

Yes, I think most instructors teach that way. Do you not have an instructor teaching you how to instruct? Floating is not a problem per se unless you float past a reasonable touchdown point (first third of runway). You can help reduce this by using the low end of the 60-70 range when light.

 

[aterry1067]

From a student that struggled with this a few years ago, a newer student has no idea what 100, 50, 20, 300, 75, feet agl looks like. They see asphalt flying to their face, and it’s scary. Teach looking/glancing out the side window to reference agl. I had to learn this from a new instructor.

Remember, this isn’t about how YOU see it, it’s about how your student sees it. He has several hundred hours less experience than you.

 

[FancyG]

From a student that struggled with this a few years ago, a newer student has no idea what 100, 50, 20, 300, 75, feet agl looks like. They see asphalt flying to their face, and it’s scary. Teach looking/glancing out the side window to reference agl. I had to learn this from a new instructor.

Remember, this isn’t about how YOU see it, it’s about how your student sees it. He has several hundred hours less experience than you.

Agree 100%. If I'd been taught to fly the plane literally to the runway and then begin roundout and flare, my landings would have gone so much better.

Roundout/flare above the numbers or judging some arbitrary height sets a student up to fail.

Another key is throttle management on final. 'Set it and forget it' leads to a sag below the glidescope in a 172 with full flaps. Any flap changes require throttle adjustment. The effect of wind also requires throttle adjustment, so the stronger the wind on final the more throttle required to maintain a stabilized approach. This is easily verifiable with VASI/PAPI lights.

Idle power at 'runway made' isn't the end of throttle use either, and sets the student up for harsh landings because you've taken that tool off the table. While a 172 punishes excess speed with float, it rewards a tiny rpm increase at the end of flare with a very smooth touchdown.

And until you can teach a student to make consistent smooth landings, don't task saturate them with the stress of repeated mediocre landings doing touch-and-goes. Taxi back, use the taxi to debrief/coach the next landing until landings are good and consistent.

Then there's no need for touch-and-goes, because the student has mastered landings.

 

[dbahn]

.

And until you can teach a student to make consistent smooth landings, don't task saturate them with the stress of repeated mediocre landings doing touch-and-goes. Taxi back, use the taxi to debrief/coach the next landing until landings are good and consistent.

Agree. I don't think students really process the explanation of "what just happened" on the landing during the "go" part of a touch and go in initial training.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

You might mention within 100 feet or so AGL, look at the far end of the runway and quit staring at the touch down point. Gives a better landing sight picture and perspective.

 

[brcase]

Are you doing this at max gross weight? If not, POH speeds are probably too fast.

Also need to add power, flap, and even wind conditions into that calculation.

 

[Revtach]

I found an article that references what I’m trying to explain.

What's The Difference Between Approach Speed And Threshold Crossing Speed?

If you don't fly the right speeds on final, you can miss your touchdown point by hundreds of feet, every time. Here's what you need to know.

www.boldmethod.com

Our POH doesn’t have a threshold crossing speed anywhere, but it’s something I instinctly start to slow down to around 100 ft AGL on short final and isn’t something I’ve explicitly been taught. I’ll bring this up to my instructor next week but I wanted to run it by the forum first due to the wealth of experience here.

 

[FastEddieB]

Either way, can I ask if you hold your final approach speed until you're ready to round out? If you start slowing down prior, how soon prior? Thank you.

I hold my final approach speed until the roundout begins. If you’re at 1.3 Vso on final, the roundout should bleed off that extra 30% without excess float. Most POH’s will likely recommend about 1.3 Vso for normal approaches and closer to 1.2 Vso for short fields.

 

[FastEddieB]

Roundout/flare above the numbers or judging some arbitrary height sets a student up to fail.

I’d argue it’s not arbitrary. And it’s what the FAA recommends. And it works.

”When the airplane, in a normal descent, approaches within what appears to be 10 to 20 feet above the ground, the round out or flare is started.”

I’m not saying an instructor needs to be a blind slave to every FAA recommendation. But if you‘re teaching something different from what the Airplane Flying Handbook recommends or what the ACS requires, you risk putting the student into a confused “who do I believe now” mentality. If you do so, be prepared to explain exactly why you think your way is better than the FAA recommendation. And make sure that in the end it will result in meeting ACS standards. If not, I’d argue that is what might “set a student up to fail”.

 

[FastEddieB]

Our POH doesn’t have a threshold crossing speed anywhere, but it’s something I instinctly start to slow down to around 100 ft AGL on short final and isn’t something I’ve explicitly been taught.

I think 100’ is a quite a bit too soon. If a student starts bleeding off speed then, there’s a very real chance he or she will misjudge and make a very firm arrival, or even stall before reaching the ground. 10’, 20’ or maybe 50’ at the outside is more than enough height in practice for a roundout/flare.

 

[brcase]

No, but the POH doesn't specify any other speeds. I am going to be teaching students who are going to be taking practical tests and I want to follow the POH.

The POH gives a range to allow you to adjust for conditions. Too lazy right now to look up actual numbers. But like 60 for a full flap power on landing (short field configuration) and 70 for a power off no or minimum flap landing (my normal landing is 10 degrees in a 172). IIRC the manual says something landings may be made at any flap setting. IIRC the ACS says something line +/- 5kts on the selected speed.

One of the best way to develop your talking points is to go fly with some other pilots or students(if you can) coach them as they do the landing. Have them just follow your instuctions, or critic what they are doing, like put the student in the back seat and tell the student what the pilot is doing.

For example (which ended up being something like what I think you asked for)
pull the power to idle here.
nose down slightly to maintain airspeed and get the airplane down to the runway (less than a wing span)
We don’t want to get nose above level altitude, until less than a wing span above the runway
then we slow the descent by raising the nose, (The round out)
As the plane gets lower we raise the nose a bit more , at 1/2 a wing span holding altitude we should be about a level attitude and then incrementally bring the nose each time the plane gets lower.
Start looking at the far end of the runway.
Best is to incrementally add pressure at a continous rate as the airplane decelerates
Acceptable is to pull in 1/2“ increments every second or so, we need to anticipate the descent start
pulling slightly before it starts to descend again.
When you get that “sinking feeling” pull some more
Of course the catch is to not pull to much and Balloon.
For a mild balloon with elevator remaining just hold the yoke still until the plane starts to descend again And resume pulling back.
For medium Balloon with only a little elevator remaining add quite a bit of power to soften the drop that is going to happen when you run out of elevator or if more than about 6 feet in the air add full power and go around.
Hold the airplane off the runway at 1-3 feet for as long as you can
Don’t force the airplane to land by going forward or releasing pressure on the yoke, just wait for it to land.
As we get to the runway we should be near full back elevator and the nose should be close to the take off attitude. (Nose on the horizon) as the the wheels touch (the Flare)


Of you course you will modify this you for the airplane, he conditions, they type of landing, the student. You may say things 5 different ways until the student figures out what works for them. I also didn’t talk about X-wind correction above.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[brcase]

I think 100’ is a quite a bit too soon. If a student starts bleeding off speed then, there’s a very real chance he or she will misjudge and make a very firm arrival, or even stall before reaching the ground. 10’, 20’ or maybe 50’ at the outside is more than enough height in practice for a roundout/flare.

Depends on you descent rate… Full flap a bit fast power off in a 172 100’ is about perfect to start round out. Full flap 55kts power on you might not round out, you might just fly it right to the runway way.

Brian

 

[brcase]

Failure to mention trim.

That should have been taken care of ont he downwind, long final at a minimum.

Brian

 

[FastEddieB]

Depends on you descent rate… Full flap a bit fast power off in a 172 100’ is about perfect to start round out. Full flap 55kts power on you might not round out, you might just fly it right to the runway way.

Brian

Whatever works for you. But we’re talking initial training, and the Law of Primacy is important here.

 

[brcase]

I have not yet had to calculate approach speed based on weight. If it is proscribed in the POH I can of course follow it but I have not had to do it manually. I will look into it. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

This is really getting into advanced instuction. Even the commerical ACS doesn’t really make you demonstrate this. it is only really important that pilots do know that this concept is true and works both ways. If heavy you are going to land faster and longer, if light you can land slower and shorter.

The Idea is if you expecting at least book performance you need to fly book numbers. Lighter will just give you better performance even at the published approach speeds.
Using a slower non-published speed MAY be perfectly safe and provide better performance, but the pilot is going to have to determine that.

I can usually tell just by the approach and landing attitude if a speed is too fast or slow (poor mans’ angle of attack indicator).

But if I wanted to demonstrate it I would take the plane up and note the actual indicated stall speed. I would then use the recommendations from the Airplane Flying handbook to IIRC 1.2 stall speed for a short field approach speed. That would be my starting point.

Brian

 

[brcase]

Whatever works for you. But we’re talking initial training, and the Law of Primacy is important here.

True but initial training is where the the approaches are all over the map. Though I usually wouldn’t have a student going full flap if they are already low and slow on approach. On the other hand the High Full flap power off approaches happen all the time.

 

[RyanShort1]

IMO this is over-reliance on the airspeed indicator. Your student will be chasing the needle all the way to the ground and desperately oscillating the yoke trying to “find” the right landing speed.

Teach them a pitch for a given airspeed, and as they recognize that they are approaching ground effect and their visual cues in their peripheral vision tell them they are approaching rooftop height, it’s time to transition their vision farther down the runway and smoothly pitch for landing.

 

[brcase]

My question is if pilots are holding final approach speed until round out. I find that going 65 knots into the round out is too much and the plane floats too far, so I have developed the habit of slowing down as I’m approaching the round out phase. I am having trouble putting into words my methodology as it is very much instinctual.

Your technique sound exactly like what I do. I aim for right at the number or even 100ft short. That slowing, bring the airplane to a level attitude with about 1/2 wing span of the runway is the round out.

Brian

 

[MauleSkinner]

The Idea is if you expecting at least book performance you need to fly book numbers. Lighter will just give you better performance even at the published approach speeds.

I’m not sure I agree…if the only published approach speed is at max weight, and you’re 20% under that weight, you’re 10% fast. That usually translates into float, and braking action kinda sucks until you’re on the ground. It could very easily result in landing longer than you would at max weight.