Trouble deciding due to mission

J

Jon Stains

Filing Flight Plan
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Oct 12, 2018
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Jon Stains
Hey Gents!,

First post, Im Jon and Im a 4th generation pilot workin on my license. Active duty is making it difficult but I won’t stop until I have it. I solo’d at 12 hours in a 1968 Piper Arrow and am now in the second stage of training. I am now looking for an aircraft as I get closer to finishing so that I can potentially build time to have a career in aviation, and also to get to see my children more often in SoCal. I am trying to stay in the 40-60k range. I have found a few PA-28R-200 that I like but am looking to see what you guys have seperately.

1) Needs to be able to carry 2-3 200 people and a 2 day bag

2) Low wing preferred as thats what i learned on and feel confident in.

3) fixed vs retractable not an issue

4) needs to be able to make the trip from Puyallup to Whiteman in a 4 day weekend without completely wearing me out.

I know this topic has been spoken about a lot but everyone always talks about -300nm trips. I need to go farther so figured my post was worth it. Im 6’1” and 220lb (athletic not fat, I think...)
 
I can’t comment on a specific recommendation but don’t throw out high wing options because you aren’t familiar with them. They fly practically the same.

Good luck on your search!
 
Depending on budget

PA24 (easy call)
C210
C185/180 (will haul but tight for fat folks)
U206
M7

As was said the wing position means nothing.
 
Don't forget the mighty Beech Sierra!
Three doors! Low wing! I'm also (formerly) athletic and 6'2" with two friends and bags. Makes that Arrow seem fast, except everyone gets their own door.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
 
Either an Arrow or Comanche!
 
Grumman Tiger:
- efficient, relatively fast for non retract
- excellent visibility for a low wing
- good parts support
- sliding canopy next best thing to AC
- excellent support at AirMods Nortwest in WA

(Someone will be along shortly to proffer the BS that Grummans can’t be used in the rain :rolleyes:)
 
.....,and Jon, since you’re new here, please understand that BrYan with his video above is at his comedic best....not to be taken seriously.
 
In my opinion, that’s a really long ways to expect to go reliably (weather) in a $40-60k GA plane. I think in your case, to make that a reliable trip you’d need your IFR license and a FIKI plane.

Putting that aside, there are lots of planes that will do it, but to do it comfortably you’d need to be fast. To go fast on your budget, a Comanche is about all I can think of that would do it.
 
wrbix said:
.....,and Jon, since you’re new here, please understand that BrYan with his video above is at his comedic best....not to be taken seriously.
Click to expand...

And contrary to popular belief, he doesn’t take money (or other things) to provide instructions
 
wrbix said:
Grumman Tiger:
- efficient, relatively fast for non retract
- excellent visibility for a low wing
- good parts support
- sliding canopy next best thing to AC
- excellent support at AirMods Nortwest in WA

(Someone will be along shortly to proffer the BS that Grummans can’t be used in the rain :rolleyes:)
Click to expand...

I'f started flying in swim trunks just in case.
What do you really truthfully cruise at in your Tiger?
And what is your useful load?

I am going to upgrade eventually.
 
That’s a 5.5 to 6 hour flight in my mooney C model. It can carry your load, handle your height, and you should be able to find one sub $60k, but it will require a fuel stop for that flight, so it’s realistically 7-8 hours door to door.

Weather will definitely be a limiting factor. A flight that long, in that area has a pretty high likelihood you’ll have to delay due to weather and your 4 day weekend turns into a week.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I'f started flying in swim trunks just in case.
What do you really truthfully cruise at in your Tiger?
And what is your useful load?

I am going to upgrade eventually.
Click to expand...
Empty wt, calculated over the years, is 1475#.....includes wt of MT CS prop. So I have no problem w 2 adults, 2 80# dogs, full fuel and a modicum of luggage.
Having to stay up over the Blue Ridges I generally conservatively plan 125-130 IAS and 8.5gph at 65 or 7500. That’s at 21 and 2100. Can go KVJI to KCDK in under 4 hrs but almost always stop for fuel mid way since no fuel at KCDK.

Some do advise wearing swimsuits flying into KCDK - 2355ft total with displaced thresholds both ends and only water for overruns...9DA93AE7-D63F-4201-8995-BFFC43794479.jpeg
 
A Comanche would fit the mission well. Finding a nice one might be near the top of your price range.
 
That’s gonna be a tough load to carry on your budget, if you want to take gas too...

James gave a good list but you’re not going to get a 210, 180/185, or a 206 for that money. I looked.

Add some money and pick up a nicely equipped 182.
 
With the weights you describe, you’re pushing the max on most Arrows once you toss-on full fuel. Add a warm day to this, and you could have some butt-pucker moments ahead of you.

Consider a 6-place PA32? It gives you a lot more wiggle-room on weight.

It also gives a lot more elbow-room (or, more accurately, thigh room) for the pilot and front passenger.

The retractable also adds considerable speed over the Arrow.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I'f started flying in swim trunks just in case.
What do you really truthfully cruise at in your Tiger?
And what is your useful load?

I am going to upgrade eventually.
Click to expand...

I have a 79 Tiger. Useful load is 920 lbs. I routinely see 135 KTS true airspeed at 6-9000 feet, running 2650 RPM. The Lycoming O-360 likes to be run hard. I always flight plan at 10 gph which gives me 4 hrs with 1 hr reserves. Generally flight plan 3.5 hr stops to drain the bladder, so fuel is never an issue. For 500 NM trips great plane. More than that, probably want something faster, which in the 50-60K range means an older Bonanza.
 
wrbix said:
...I generally conservatively plan 125-130 IAS and 8.5gph at 65 or 7500. That’s at 21 and 2100.
Click to expand...

130 KIAS at 7500MSL translates to 148 KTAS using a 2% OAT estimation, which is pretty quick for a Tiger at those power settings.

Or do you mean MPH IAS?
 
Rcmutz said:
I have a 79 Tiger. Useful load is 920 lbs. I routinely see 135 KTS true airspeed at 6-9000 feet, running 2650 RPM. The Lycoming O-360 likes to be run hard. I always flight plan at 10 gph which gives me 4 hrs with 1 hr reserves. Generally flight plan 3.5 hr stops to drain the bladder, so fuel is never an issue. For 500 NM trips great plane. More than that, probably want something faster, which in the 50-60K range means an older Bonanza.
Click to expand...

Shoot, 2 200 lb adults and a busload of luggage will even fit in a Traveler or Cheetah. I've got 680 lb useful load with full fuel in my Traveler, which is 4+30. My mission is carrying two plus luggage and shopping for regional trips. The cargo configuration, with the rear seats folder, will allow folding bikes or long stuff like skis or curling gear. I'm not as fast as a Tiger, however, about 117 kt at 8 gph. A Cheetah with similar fuel load is probably 10 kt faster. Before I owned a 4-seater, I used to rent a clapped-out Tiger to take three plus camping gear up to the Adirondacks, and that was well within the full fuel useful load. A sub-one-hour flight beats 3 1/2 hour drive every day.
 
I wasn’t familiar with those airports.
That’s a 790NM trip. No small task.
I punched the trip in for my Lance. That’s 5hrs 13 mins. Fuel full 96 is 5 hrs with no reserve.
Maybe a Saratoga with the 114 (or whatever that fuel cap is) would do?
If I were you I’d be looking for something that could do it non-stop. That’s the best speed mod.
 
An RV-6 should give you 155 KTAS at 8 gph or so. My friend's -7A returns those numbers with a 180-hp IO-360.

My -9A does just fine at max gross: 450 lb of me + copilot, full fuel (36 gal.) and 100 lb of camping gear going back to Oshkosh. Van's 2-seaters have pretty generous cargo bays, but they're not the easiest to load.

Takeoff from Gallup, NM was a little sluggish (FP prop), but field elevation is 6472' and it was an 85-degree day.
 
asicer said:
130 KIAS at 7500MSL translates to 148 KTAS using a 2% OAT estimation, which is pretty quick for a Tiger at those power settings.
?
Click to expand...

Does seem a bit optimistic when compared to the figures in the MT performance tables - which show a TAS in mid 120s at 21/2100/8000’. I will make a point of actually noting the IAS next time I’m there.

BTW, for those who want to get there faster, noise and gph be damned, and want to “push the O-360 hard”, these same tables predict TAS of 136 and 11.4 gph at 21.8/2500/8000’.

...all in knots :D.
 
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Gentleman!,

There is a hell of a lot of good info on this thread. I’m starting to realize what kind of task that it is and I am looking at ways to bump my budget up to try and get to the 100k range. Thank you so much for all your help I will be looking into all of your suggestions. My mission might change for the better as I might get re-stationed in Arizona which would help tremendously with all of this.

Happy Holidays gentleman!
 
Typically, you can only have two of the following three options:

Good
Fast
Cheap


Bumping up the budget will more than likely get you closer to what you want.
 
Anymouse said:
Typically, you can only have two of the following three options:

Good
Fast
Cheap


Bumping up the budget will more than likely get you closer to what you want.
Click to expand...
a PC-12 would do a heck of a job for this mission.....o_O
 
GeorgeC said:
View attachment 69475
Click to expand...

With that panel? The market is nuts these days. There's a bit of a cult following to the P models (essentially a poor man's G33) Of course we don't know what it sold for, but if the five days is true, likely sold at listing. I consider the upgrade to -520 a negative in that airplane, especially if they put a light case and no VAR crank. A fool and their money...
 
Heftiger said:
I wasn’t familiar with those airports.
That’s a 790NM trip. No small task.
I punched the trip in for my Lance. That’s 5hrs 13 mins. Fuel full 96 is 5 hrs with no reserve.
Maybe a Saratoga with the 114 (or whatever that fuel cap is) would do?
If I were you I’d be looking for something that could do it non-stop. That’s the best speed mod.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that'd be right at 5 hrs in my 210. And I'd still do it in two legs. I have a long range plane and a short range bladder. Bad combination.
 
Sit in a Mooney. See if it works for you. Some people say the Mooney is roomy other say it's narrow. My j with the 2900 lb gross weight increase as a thousand pounds useful load. Even with 64 gallons it can carry a lot! You might be able to obtain an older Mooney in that price range...

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 
JCranford said:
Yeah, that'd be right at 5 hrs in my 210. And I'd still do it in two legs. I have a long range plane and a short range bladder. Bad combination.
Click to expand...

I had cause to do a couple of five hour legs in my car last week. Yuck. It was bad enough in a comfy Ford sedan, I don't want to think about it in a light single.
 
Like @Joegoersch said, test fit a Mooney. My C is slower than his J, but I've flown 4:45 twice and landed with about 1:15 in fuel each time. My useful is 970 lb, of which 300 is fuel. See if that will work for you. Note that A-E are called "short body" for a reason, as back seat legroom is cramped [like in a Honda]. The mid-bodies have an extra 5" of backseat legroom and an extra 5" of baggage space, but the front seats are the same.

For fuel, speed, endurance, etc., I burn right at 9 gph block time, descend from cruise to pattern at cruise power, and the O-360 gives me 147 KTAS if I feed it 9 gph. Capacity is 52 gal, I generally count on 50 with a little expansion room at the top of each tank; 50/9 = 5½ hours x 145 = 800 nm or 920 miles. Your flight is out of range, so plan a stop along the way somewhere to stand up and walk around.

Mooneys starting with E or higher letters should be a few knots faster, with Js being 10-15 knots faster; they are also IO-360 so you can run LOP to trade speed for range should you so desire.

Happy hunting!
 
A Trinidad could make it, depending on winds. 86 gal usable burning ~13.5/hr. The gen 1's will cruise just over 150kts, my TAS is 154 at ~9000. Still looking at a 5+ hour flight, again depending on the winds, longer than I want to sit in my plane. Most G1's have useful loads over 1100 lbs so weight with 3 adults and bags shouldn't be an issue. Now, getting one for $60k, no chance in todays market, but they are a lot newer plane than a 60's something Bo, they didn't start making them until the mid 80's.
 
A PA-32 Cherokee 6, or SIX 300 can carry a huge load and can be set up with seven seats or four seats and a pickup truck load...
 
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