Trio vs TruTrak

The problem with the RSM proved to be the length of the wire they sent with the RSM. With a shorter wire it worked fine.
 
Unit74 said:
Have they said what the functionality will be? Might be the diff between buying G5s and an Aspen if it's significant...... Any more probs with the RSM?
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Latest is baro sync, heading (whatever you set on the Aspen), alt bug and VS bug. And a promise of more in the future..

Significant diff , G5 and Aspen... The TT<> Aspen interface is a joint effort between TT and Aspen, so both companies are supporting the project.

With the G5 , TT is on its own, Garmin is not helping, and there is a rumour that Garmin may change the coms protocol (it's theirs anyway) in the futile, so the interface may be in difficulty.. :(

Not sure why one would want to deal with the LCD display of the G5 when the others have TFT displays that can be seen in direct sunlight and with polarized glasses... but..

They shortened the cable on the RSM.. now working fine... It was looooog.. (35') Not sure why but... :)

To follow Jesse, I am still hearing Osk time frame for the software...

Cap
 
Getting close...... I’d really like to hear what the final interoperability will be.

Garmin dropped a new software release for the G5. Wondering it that sets TT back any.
 
I can tell you the final G5 operability. The TruTrak will fly the heading bug, it will sync the Baro, and it will use the altitude bug as a preload for the altitude, but you still need to tell the TruTrak to get and how fast to get to that altitude. The heading bug us handy, and the Baro sync is nice, but if you only have a G5 HSI, you have to switch over to the PFD screen to input any Baro changes.
 
Anyone heard anything out of Trutrak about the software working with Aspen and Garmin? Seems like they have gone silent......
 
Unit74 said:
Anyone heard anything out of Trutrak about the software working with Aspen and Garmin? Seems like they have gone silent......
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They've not gone silent. They are quite active on their Facebook page. It was submited to the FAA for another review and thats where its awaiting now. There were some changes that the FAA had requested on the brackets for the 177 installations as well, and those new bracket designs were also submitted at the same time of the resubmission for the firmware.
 
Last I heard, it wasn't a hardware issue. rather, they had the software being reviewed. A month before Osh, TT said they should have it by Osh. They cant blame the shut down on this one. I'd really like to see what the feature set is going to look like. I saw one vid Andrew did with the E5 but that was not enough to overview how the TT and G5 or E5 are going to integrate.
 
Hello all. Just found this thread. I have a TT sitting in the box awaiting install in my 1967 Cherokee 6. I'm curious if anyone here has installed the TT in a PA32. Any problems or issues found? Was is as simple as the other aircraft mentioned here? What are most of you driving it with in terms of GPS? I am on a waiting list right now for install of a Garmin GNX 375 and dual G5's, however if I am not mistaken, they don't work together yet. I purchased an Aera 660 to control it until they get it figured out.

Thanks for any suggestions or tips!
 
Jason Larkin said:
Hello all. Just found this thread. I have a TT sitting in the box awaiting install in my 1967 Cherokee 6. I'm curious if anyone here has installed the TT in a PA32. Any problems or issues found? Was is as simple as the other aircraft mentioned here? What are most of you driving it with in terms of GPS? I am on a waiting list right now for install of a Garmin GNX 375 and dual G5's, however if I am not mistaken, they don't work together yet. I purchased an Aera 660 to control it until they get it figured out.

Thanks for any suggestions or tips!
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The TT head has to go back to Springdale for the software update. No field updates allowed. Being so close to th software release, I’d just hold off if you could. Might save an hour of labor.
 
Unit74 said:
The TT head has to go back to Springdale for the software update. No field updates allowed. Being so close to th software release, I’d just hold off if you could. Might save an hour of labor.
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Oh that's good to know! Might be too late to save on shipping as I already have it. Is there a release date? I called TT and they said I would need to email my question. I've emailed 3 times with no response, so it's been a little frustrating. I've been trying to get on someone's schedule for so long it might be hard for me to wait. :) Currently set to start on the 23rd.
 
Jason Larkin said:
I called TT and they said I would need to email my question. I've emailed 3 times with no response, so it's been a little frustrating. I've been trying to get on someone's schedule for so long it might be hard for me to wait. :) Currently set to start on the 23rd.
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Looks like BK is having an influence on them now.... My IA has been trying to talk me out of the Trutrak and into a GFC500. Perhaps he is right.
 
Jason Larkin said:
Well that is some irony! Finally started reaching out to some forums and really I just needed to wait a few more hours. HAHA.
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I just talked to TT and they said they will be making an announcement later today or tomorrow on the process for sending in the head unit. They do not know how the process is going to work yet, so I suppose that means it might be a little bit yet. They said I cannot send my unit in just yet as they are not ready.
 
Unit74 said:
Looks like BK is having an influence on them now.... My IA has been trying to talk me out of the Trutrak and into a GFC500. Perhaps he is right.
Click to expand...

Yeah my AI has sort of been like this. He's not full on trying to talk me out of it, but he keeps asking "well can it do this...?" and of course I'm still not sure all the answers, but I bought it so I guess I'm seeing it through. I am having a GNX375 installed later this year as I still need to get ADSB compliant. TT lists the GTN650 as being compatible, but not the 375. So the answer I am still trying to get is if I put a flight plan into the 375 and it sends data to the G5 HSI will the G5 then pass on the heading and altitude information to the TT with this new software update? I have a AERA660, so in theory I can still use that to drive the TT as originally planned, but really the ultimate goal is to have the TT coupled to an IFR approved navigator directly and not rely on the the 375 sending the flight plan to the 660 over bluetooth. This stuff makes my head hurt. I think it was easier to learn to fly! ;)
 
FWIW … some Aspen <> TT/BK news...

New Aspen software will include..

- ALT set and VS set (additions) to the TT interface, (Heading and Baro already there.)
- Free unlock for the FULL HSI. (more to the story here if you are interested)
- $$$ (to be determined) unlock for TAS, GS, OAT and winds data. (called a "Data Bar") No hardware, the OAT probe is already in both versions of the RSM.

Sweeeet…. but all unofficial so far..

Cap
 
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cappy48 said:
FWIW … some Aspen <> TT/BK news...

New Aspen software will include..

- ALT set and VS set (additions) to the TT interface, (Heading and Baro already there.)
- Free unlock for the FULL HSI. (more to the story here if you are interested)
- $$$ (to be determined) unlock for TAS, GS, OAT and winds data. (called a "Data Bar") No hardware, the OAT probe is already in both versions of the RSM.

Sweeeet….

Cap
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Cap,
Thats the same news I've been hearing as well. Did you happen to hear if they are going to correct the ARINC429 flags in the Aspen upgrade that enables vertical steering commands to pass through the Aspen to the Trutrak? When I talked with Andy, he heard that engineering was going to *try* and get those corrected in time to make it for this upgrade, but he could not say for certain. I'd like to talk about those story details on the HSI if you don't mind a PM.
 
Hi Lynn.. I hear it is fully intended.. to insert the Vert flags in the data sentence... There was no correction, they were simply not there,, The TT is already listening for them.. That was the central issue in the next upgrade. The HSI became .. ahem.. a sudden bonus.. :)

Cap
 
cappy48 said:
Hi Lynn.. I hear it is fully intended.. to insert the Vert flags in the data sentence... There was no correction, they were simply not there,, The TT is already listening for them.. That was the central issue in the next upgrade. The HSI became .. ahem.. a sudden bonus.. :)

Cap
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THAT.... IS... AWESOME! I could not fully remember what the issue was with the flags, but I remembered it being *Something* with the ARINC429 flags. This makes sense. So this explains why we are going to get the vertical speed, and altimeter bugs being sent over to the TruTrak too, in addition that should also enable the vertical steering so a TruTrak coupled to Aspen E5 that is being fed by an IFR navigator should also be able to follow a glideslope.

Essentially the Vertical and Lateral GPSS commands would flow: IFD540 --> Aspen E5 (in GPSS mode) --> TruTrak (in Aspen mode) right? If so, this is exactly what I have been waiting for...now just to hold out until the upgrade gets released. Has Aspen started talking about this over any press releases or social media outlets?
 
Essentially, yes...

A conversation with Aspen some time ago (remember TT has had a Vizion talking to an Aspen (all functions) in late 2017 on their workbench) was that anything that the Aspen DISPLAYS it would pass on. This would include vertical and lateral steering from the navigator... IF it was received in the correct format.

So, the caveat here is that the ARINC 429 data must be a data sentence in "GPS FORMAT". The IFDs do this correctly.

The Aspen will not "Convert" the data, just pass it through. Every steering signal is "Passed through" but the Aspen cannot "correct" or modify it. It generates GPSS steering from its internal heading reference only, for the rest, it depends on others. It can "switch" from one external steering source to another. (the G5 cannot)I THINK the adapter that converts ILS/VOR signals for the aspen to display MAY be passed through correctly to the TT, but I never asked the question, and the emphasis on that function has lessened due to the wholesale switch from the legacy Nav Aids to RNAV.

The Instructional "flags" (different from "steering information),are generated internally (baro, heading bug) and are in the data sentence and the TT listens to these when it is in "Aspen" mode, and reverts to it's own internally generated flags when the Aspen mode is off.

My expectations is that you would load the approach into the IFD and manage throttle and flaps to the flare (in theory :) I have heard that, connected to the IFD 540 and the 430W, the TT will take you to the flare on the centerline, the IFD did it in a 7K crosswind...

Remember also, TT is NOT the new kid on the block. Vizions have flown thousands of coupled approaches for many years in experimental aircraft, and are considered reliable and deadly accurate. TT got any bugs out of this AP function years ago....

I have heard NOTHING official from or around Aspen in this... and would welcome any corrections to the above if anyone has anything to offer.. What I offer is assembled from various bits of information that seems to be circulating from good sources...

FWIW.. :)

Cap
 
Curious... (was asked)

Anybody heard anything about the Trio these days?

See some reviews (on dealer sites) from a while ago where the STC group not returning calls.. And the current pricing is 3495 (AP) plus 2995 for install kit and STC.. That's about 6500 bucks now...

?

Cap
 
Jesse Saint said:
TruTrak has far more installs in PA-28’s than Trio. The STC Group is not fun to deal with either. The install kit from TruTrak is EXCELLENT!
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I’m in the SanFrancisco Bay Area. Does anyone know of a shop that’s has done the install. I have a pa28-235
Thanks
 
Is the TT authorized to fly coupled approaches, and if not, is there any timeline to getting that capability approved? The system can physically fly both lateral and vertical coupled approaches if connected to a WAAS nav, correct? Finally, any word on if TT/BendixKing plan to add the Debonair to their AML, and if so, when this would occur? Thanks.
 
Yes, coupled to a capable WASS navigator it can... very well, but not approved (STC) for any certed airframe yet. The TT Vizion has been flying coupled approaches for many years in experimental aircraft . I have heard, for C172 and PA - 28s, within a year, along with IAS.

TT<>BK are still struggling to whittle down the backlog of orders, and I heard they were making progress. But the Mooneys are soon to be approved, and there are a LOT of Mooneyites salivating with cash in hand.. That is NOT going to help the backlog in orders. This may delay the Approach STCs.

Nothing on the Debonair has surfaced in the forums... You might tread around on Beech Talk and ask. I suggest this, because the TT STC for Grumman's happened , and hardly anyone knew about it. (Grumman talked directly to TT and helped make it happen.)

Cap
 
Cap,
Thanks for the info. I got a response from BK on their plans for the Bonanza/Debonair if anyone else with one is interested. Fingers are crossed it happens. I find it interesting that the STC didn’t allow for couples approaches since it is proven, capable, and the GFC 500 competitor allows them. Here is the BK response about Bonanzas and Debs:

“The Bonanza is on the list this year to start the process year. I would like to think they would try to combine similar air frames if possible. The entire process is lengthy (like several years) by the time the lawyers and FAA are complete with the paperwork.”
 
cappy48 said:
Yes, coupled to a capable WASS navigator it can... very well, but not approved (STC) for any certed airframe yet. The TT Vizion has been flying coupled approaches for many years in experimental aircraft . I have heard, for C172 and PA - 28s, within a year, along with IAS.
Cap
Click to expand...

One of them has a 700’ limitation?


Tom
 
Timothy Burchett said:
Cap,
Thanks for the info. I got a response from BK on their plans for the Bonanza/Debonair if anyone else with one is interested. Fingers are crossed it happens. I find it interesting that the STC didn’t allow for couples approaches since it is proven, capable, and the GFC 500 competitor allows them. Here is the BK response about Bonanzas and Debs:

“The Bonanza is on the list this year to start the process year. I would like to think they would try to combine similar air frames if possible. The entire process is lengthy (like several years) by the time the lawyers and FAA are complete with the paperwork.”
Click to expand...


Hi Tim!

The TT is not STCd for approaches because it has to be flight tested with each navigator in EACH airframe and they chose not to take the ( long) time to do that allowing then to bring the autopilot to market a lot sooner. Then got a "blanket " STC for all the PA -28 airframes at the same time with the alt and approach limitation. They figured that most potential customers did not care about coupled approaches below 700 feet and they were absolutley correct. The TT is now the most popular AP in C 172s and Cherokees by a huge margin and the factory is still dealing with a huge backlog of orders 22 months after it began shipping.

The demand unexpectedly consumed all their resources delaying further approvals , hopefully BKs involvement will shorten the wait time for further approvals.

Cheers!

Cap
 
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cappy48 said:
Hi Tim!

Thw TT is not STCd for approaches because it has to be flight tested with each navigator in EACH airframe and they chose not to take the ( long) time to do that allowing then to bring the autopilot to market a lot sooner. Then got a "blanket " STC for all the PA -28 airframes at the same time with the alt and approach limitation. They figured that most potential customers did not care about coupled approaches below 700 feet and they were absolutley correct. The TT is now the most popular AP in C 172s and Cherokees by a huge margin and the factory is still dealing with a huge backlog of orders 22 months after it began shipping.

The demand unexpectedly consumed all their resources delaying further approvals , hopefully BKs involvement will shorten the wait time for further approvals.

Cheers!

Cap
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It's important to note that the TT will indeed fly a coupled approach, as far as you (as the PIC) are comfortable / legal to take it. It's placarded at at 700 foot limitation, but there is nothing in the software that de-couples or disengages the AP :) I mean, I have a Trutrak, but I would *never* fly it past the placarded limitations....of course :)

Even the FAA recommended that TruTrak not remove the *ability* to fly a coupled approach all the way down, just that it be placarded as prohibited.
 
cappy48 said:
Hi Tim!

The TT is not STCd for approaches because it has to be flight tested with each navigator in EACH airframe and they chose not to take the ( long) time to do that allowing then to bring the autopilot to market a lot sooner. Then got a "blanket " STC for all the PA -28 airframes at the same time with the alt and approach limitation. They figured that most potential customers did not care about coupled approaches below 700 feet and they were absolutley correct. The TT is now the most popular AP in C 172s and Cherokees by a huge margin and the factory is still dealing with a huge backlog of orders 22 months after it began shipping.
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For 172s and Cherokees that maybe true, for Bs, Ms, and other higher dollar planes...it’s Garmins 500.


Tom
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
For 172s and Cherokees that maybe true, for Bs, Ms, and other higher dollar planes...it’s Garmins 500.


Tom
Click to expand...

Time will tell... but a lot of Mooneyites are waiting for the TT, but for Bos and higher $$$ airframes you are correct.. and if you are flying hard IFR in ANYTHING, NOW, the GFC 500 is the best choice.

Seems TTs are going in a lot of Sixes, Lances and Togas also.. from feedback in the forums...

If the GFC 500 did not HAVE to use the G5s, … they would sell more... :( It would be great if the GFC500 would listen to the Aspens and Dymons and soon to be the BK displays. But that's not Garmin's way...

Cap
 
a MAJOR drawback to using the GFC500 is that are incredibly limiting your future avionics purchases based around the dang autopilot. Once you go GFC500, you are stuck in the Garmin wall garden as it doesn;'t really work with anything else. That forces you down the route of Garmin navigators, Garmin PFD/MFD's etc.

That one piece of equipment locks you in for the totality of owning it. I don't like that.
 
cappy48 said:
Time will tell... but a lot of Mooneyites are waiting for the TT, but for Bos and higher $$$ airframes you are correct.. and if you are flying hard IFR in ANYTHING, NOW, the GFC 500 is the best choice.

Seems TTs are going in a lot of Sixes, Lances and Togas also.. from feedback in the forums...

If the GFC 500 did not HAVE to use the G5s, … they would sell more... :( It would be great if the GFC500 would listen to the Aspens and Dymons and soon to be the BK displays. But that's not Garmin's way...

Cap
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Also, in my opinion, the cost of the GFC500 unit and install being more expensive than the TT is swaying some people.
 
Lynn Dixon said:
a MAJOR drawback to using the GFC500 is that are incredibly limiting your future avionics purchases based around the dang autopilot. Once you go GFC500, you are stuck in the Garmin wall garden as it doesn;'t really work with anything else. That forces you down the route of Garmin navigators, Garmin PFD/MFD's etc.

That one piece of equipment locks you in for the totality of owning it. I don't like that.
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You are not alone in your thinking Lynn..

Although TT cracked the Garmin coms sentence to listen to the G5, there is still speculation that Garmin will change the protocol.

And there is a plethora of new equipment arriving on the market that will be able to interface with the TT autopilot. You will have all kinds of neat options in displays , installations and ancillary equipment . And I speculate that this new stuff will integrate FIRST with the TT/BK because of it's dominant (and growing) market penetration. (only make sense) TT/BK apparently have plans to add IAS select, get the approaches certed and add auto trim. (already there in the experimental version). If and when this is done, the TT will have no equal , especially in that price range. But it's not there yet..

With the GFC 500, you are correct, you will be locked into Garmin and their stuff. If one is a Garmin fan, great, but if not, - not so much... :(

I would like to know how well it works with the G3, that would be a nice head end for it. The reports on the Garmin are that it flies the plane well and smoothly, but if you are not going to rebuild your panel ($$$$) you are stuck with the G5s. And they are a one trick pony. Others, with sunlight viewable displays and extensive upgrade options (Aspen) are better displays to watch for hours.. The G5s will always be, well, just G5s.

Cap
 
I would have loved to install an STEC3100 in my Cardinal RG, but at $15k (just for the hardware!) the only value prop it gave me over the trutrak was auto-trim and IAS climb. My Trutrak was 1/3 of that cost.

I am totally happy with my TruTrak and Aspen E5 combo. Even though the integration came late. The aspen is BY FAR much better display quality than the G5's which just look like toys to me.
 
Lynn Dixon said:
I would have loved to install an STEC3100 in my Cardinal RG, but at $15k (just for the hardware!) the only value prop it gave me over the trutrak was auto-trim and IAS climb. My Trutrak was 1/3 of that cost.

I am totally happy with my TruTrak and Aspen E5 combo. Even though the integration came late. The aspen is BY FAR much better display quality than the G5's which just look like toys to me.
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Totally agree, I think the Aspen is a far better instrument. I have a side by side picture of them here somewhere... in show lighting.. interesting…

Tell us more about the Aspen E5<>TT combination !! Many want to hear! I am planning on the Aspen here next year. I think this is the sweet spot combination at this time... :)

Cap
 
cappy48 said:
Totally agree, I think the Aspen is a far better instrument. I have a side by side picture of them here somewhere... in show lighting.. interesting…

Tell us more about the Aspen E5<>TT combination !! Many want to hear! I am planning on the Aspen here next year. I think this is the sweet spot combination at this time... :)

Cap
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Well right now, my head unit for the TT has been removed from the plane a couple weeks back and sent back to mid-continent (who BK / TT has contracted with for the firmware upgrade) to get its firmware upgraded to enable the integration. I'm hoping to get it back after the holidays. BUT, the Aspen E5 has been phenominal to fly behind. Super easy on the eyes, very responsive display with no lags like the older hardware. I love it. There is a rumored free upgrade coming down the pike for the E5 to enable an HSI and correct the VNAV flags for the TruTrak and STEC's. Along this same time frame, Aspen is rumored to release a $500 unlock for all the air data to be displayed, with no new hardware being needed....totally software.

But the TruTrak is like flying on rails. Simple to use and just works like you'd expect. There's a reason they sold so well, and are STILL selling like crazy. Its a darn good auto-pilot.
 
cappy48 said:
If the GFC 500 did not HAVE to use the G5s, … they would sell more... :( It would be great if the GFC500 would listen to the Aspens and Dymons and soon to be the BK displays. But that's not Garmin's way...

Cap
Click to expand...
Sure it is ....it’s called “GFC 600”.
Gives you all that (not sure about Dymons,BK)...



Tom
 
Lynn Dixon said:
Well right now, my head unit for the TT has been removed from the plane a couple weeks back and sent back to mid-continent (who BK / TT has contracted with for the firmware upgrade) to get its firmware upgraded to enable the integration. I'm hoping to get it back after the holidays. BUT, the Aspen E5 has been phenominal to fly behind. Super easy on the eyes, very responsive display with no lags like the older hardware. I love it. There is a rumored free upgrade coming down the pike for the E5 to enable an HSI and correct the VNAV flags for the TruTrak and STEC's. Along this same time frame, Aspen is rumored to release a $500 unlock for all the air data to be displayed, with no new hardware being needed....totally software.

But the TruTrak is like flying on rails. Simple to use and just works like you'd expect. There's a reason they sold so well, and are STILL selling like crazy. Its a darn good auto-pilot.
Click to expand...



OK !... The rumour appears to be confirmed through their dealer network. The next Aspen update will include the Alt and VS flags (they are not present in the data sentence now) for the TT and the HSI. The "somewhat HSI " used now did not reverse its indication on a missed back course! (oops!) So "someone" suggested that Aspen fix this NOW. So the solution was to unlock the HSI for free. There will be an unlock for the air data ($500) and another to unlock the traffic display. I speculated that this might happen a year ago. (the rumor that would not go away) Competition does wonders.. :) But a "suggestion" by higher ups appears to have helped.

I also like the TT and how it flys the plane (Warrior) . If there were needles in the sky I could thread them with the TT. ALT hold "sticks" the altimeter and I cannot observe lateral variations even at high zoom levels. Smooth and predictable. I have multitasked it (a target alt in a 90 deg. deviation with a VS high enough to trigger the min speed and a 180 deg turn to acquire an inbound) .. (!).. and it handled it well without fuss. It kept it's mission perfectly while bumping the pitch to observe the min speed. Not sure what else I could get it to do..

22 months since they started shipping and still backlogged with orders and the Mooneyites are soon to jump in...

Cap
 
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